Your Advice Regarding Flying With Other Pilots?

[jason]

I certainly understand him teaching you to not just jump into any plane...but he could also be taking it a bit far. I'd rather he just mentioned it to you and not try to scare you about having to "relearn" everything. A couple of flights isn't going do any harm.

That said, I've certainly flown with pilots that I'll never fly with again. Don't just assume every pilot is great. Use your best judgment and if, at any time, you don't feel safe...SPEAK UP!

 

[majorlyannoyed]

Ever stop to consider the CFI may just have a crush on the OP?

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I think the concern about that young man, with whom you are sharing the fligh planning, being or not being a safe pilot is very valid. I would be particularly worried about attempts to impress. You can mitigate is to a large extent by saying up front "you do anything you would not dare do on a checkride and you never get into my panties, ever". And if you see any red flags, just don't go. There is no obligation, not even a moral one.

That said, I experienced this from the other side, by sharing a flight with a fellow pilot Brian. He's got a half more hours than I and is a cautious pilot, as I learned when we swapped the PIC position. And I sure gave him a couple of scares.

First time was when we approached a mountain pass and it was pretty clear that 1. we're not going to have 2000 ft clearance, but more like 1000, and 2. I wasn't flying at proper 45 degrees to ridgeline, more like 60 degrees. As the terrain on the other side was taking its sweet time to become visible, Brian was getting more and more nervouis and eventually said "we won't make it, we have to turn back". I was getting ready to turn back (immediately) if caught in a good downdraft, but not before. So I just kept it to Vx to make him feel better about AGL and eventually we made it fine on the other side.

Second time was when we made the first landing together. I settled nicely on the final like I always do and things were peachy until the time for a round-out, when Brian suddenly grabbed the right yoke. A tug-o-war ensued while the airplane was flaring. Miraclously, nothing too bad happened. As it turned out, he thought that I was not going to flare and expected a hard landing. The reason for it was that as an Instrument student Brian was conditioned to keep to the "big boy" glideslope and my steeper approach disoriented him somewhat.

Now if Brian were an impressionable young lady with 15 hours who's preparing for her XCs, I think it would be natural for her CFI to be concerned that she'd start buzzing mountain ridges and bombing unfamiliar runways after being exposed to examples. Thinking back, my flying had a large room for improvement.

-- Pete

Um, not sure what my panties have to do with anything since he is married.... oh and not young (he is older than me).

 

[kimberlyanne546]

<sarcasm>
But, but... you're blonde! You MUST be naive!
</sarcasm>

Your CFI does have a point in that you can learn bad habits from other pilots while you're still in the "nestling" stage of becoming a pilot yourself, and then you have to work hard to retrain yourself to proper habits, which is more work for him too (but shouldn't bother him because it's also more $$ to him)

That said, I think he may be overcautious. I've been a "substitute" CFI a few times lately for others at my school who had illness or other conflicts, and it's worked out fine. As long as you can distinguish between "instruction" from a competent CFI and "examples" from another pilot, it shouldn't do any significant harm to your learning.

I'm a brunette with green eyes, the blonde (actually redhead) look is thanks to my hairdresser..... and I act naive yes but not on purpose, I'm just old fashioned and tend to trust people first 100% until they do something to take away that trust - unlike some girls who are immediately suspicious up front and people have to earn their trust.

 

[danhagan]

My CFI is concerned I will learn / pick up bad habits he will then have to "unteach" me to do in the cockpit, costing me money. So basically he is saying after I get my PPL I will "know better" but right now he thinks I may not know enough this early in my training to know right from wrong. For some reason he thinks I am naive.

Mine told me to, but not to take instruction from them, as most can't fly to PTS standards. Told me to watch and I'd see where THEIR weakness(es) were ... he was right. They were all safe pilots, but certain items that have been hammered into your head, you'll notice them doing wrong and hear your instructors voice.

 

[TMetzinger]

Um, not sure what my panties have to do with anything since he is married.... oh and not young (he is older than me).

The tendency of the male to show off for the female is not related in any way to the actual chance of a mating occuring. In fact, it's often inversely proportional. Marital status (of the male or the female) is often not a factor either

BTDT (although I do have the excuse of it being when I was younger). I can conceive of myself still getting "stupid" over a female, however, even at my advanced age.

 

[crash7]

Turn the flying with other people into a learning opportunity with your CFI. After riding with another pilot, talk with your CFI about the things you observed. Things you thought were good and things you thought were bad. I'd think that would relieve any "concerns about picking up bad habits". If you're not sure the other pilot's technique was good or bad, you can get your CFI's opinion.

There are many ways to fly a plane.

 

[steingar]

Um, not sure what my panties have to do with anything since he is married.... oh and not young (he is older than me).

Us married old farts are the worst.

 

[Everskyward]

Us married old farts are the worst.

I think that has something to do with the "forbidden fruit" factor. What you are not supposed to have makes you want it more.

Men also show off to other men but for slightly different reasons, but maybe not that different when you think about it.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Wait a minute - why is your CFI telling you he doesn't want you flying with other pilots? What's the deal there? If any CFI ever told me that, I would fire him on the spot, no discussion.

I've noticed a lot on this board that if there is one minor issue with a CFI the automatic response is to fire them... why is that?

I value your opinion too however I will not fire him for having an overly conservative opinion.

Good.

But, you should fly with other pilots. Good ones, who can teach you new things. I still like doing that, I usually learn something. Sometimes I learn something not to do.

I have yet to fly with a bad pilot, and perhaps I'm lucky or perhaps a large portion of pilots are infact good ones. But on each flight I have learned from them. All but two of them from this board, and one of them indirectly from this board.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Another point of view. Before I passed my checkride, I went for a few rides with other pilots. One was a PilotsNPaws flight that I really enjoyed and learned from. But one was with the owner of a new Cirrus. I mentioned I hadn't been in a new airplane, and he offered to take me up in it. The flight was fun....until the creep treated me like I was a hooker. Seriously. He was old enough to be father and he thought he could buy me. I told my CFI I was seriously ticked off at being treated that way, but he did nothing, because the creep spent alot of money at the airport, and as I learned during my time at that airport, all they cared about was how much money they could get.

I hope you keep going and pass your checkride and get that expensive piece of plastic!

So basically, what you're saying is the pilot card doesn't ALWAYS work....

 

[markb5900]

To the OP:

As others have said, there really is no way to know just by looking at someone if they are competent or not.
Personally I look at whether someone does a thorough pre-flight or not. That tends to give a good indication IMHO of what type of pilot they are.
If you don't feel comfortable, then just say you changed your mind and thank him for the offer to take you up.
That "gut feeling" either good or bad is probably right.

 

[TMetzinger]

To the OP:

As others have said, there really is no way to know just by looking at someone if they are competent or not.
Personally I look at whether someone does a thorough pre-flight or not. That tends to give a good indication IMHO of what type of pilot they are.
If you don't feel comfortable, then just say you changed your mind and thank him for the offer to take you up.
That "gut feeling" either good or bad is probably right.

Good call - I can generally tell by the amount of care a pilot puts into doing the pre-flight inspection, and how they get into the airplane. A good pilot will be gentle with the doors, for instance, and the seats. You can tell when someone is looking over the airplane, whether they're using a checklist or not, if they know what they're looking at and WHY they're looking at it. Look at a parent with their child - when you see that same sort of care in a pilot's eyes for his/her airplane, go fly with them. They may not be the hottest pilot in the sky, but you can be sure they'll be smooth and stay within their envelope.

 

[bluee]

So basically, what you're saying is the pilot card doesn't ALWAYS work....

Does it work for you?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have yet to fly with a bad pilot,

I can tell you why:

All but two of them from this board, and one of them indirectly from this board.

Not that being here automatically makes us good pilots, but IMO the type of pilots who seek out opportunities such as PoA to interact with and learn from other pilots are more likely to be good, safe pilots.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Not that being here automatically makes us good pilots, but IMO the type of pilots who seek out opportunities such as PoA to interact with and learn from other pilots are more likely to be good, safe pilots.

ah okay that makes a lot of sense.

 

[Ted]

I've noticed a lot on this board that if there is one minor issue with a CFI the automatic response is to fire them... why is that?

Because half of the people saying that are CFIs who want the business.

I have yet to fly with a bad pilot, and perhaps I'm lucky or perhaps a large portion of pilots are infact good ones. But on each flight I have learned from them. All but two of them from this board, and one of them indirectly from this board.

Kent is correct that in large part that's because they're people from this board. And I wouldn't tell you to fly with someone who was a bad pilot (as I recommended the indirect one you fly with).

 

[wabower]

For most of those in my age group, the worst thing they could charge us with would be attempted indecent exposure.

 

[gkainz]

I can tell you why:

Not that being here automatically makes us good pilots, but IMO the type of pilots who seek out opportunities such as PoA to interact with and learn from other pilots are more likely to be good, safe pilots.

Besides, those POAers know that anything stupid we do will be posted here, very shortly after the stupid event (provided it doesn't cause a fatality).

 

[Sac Arrow]

Does it work for you?

Honestly, I can't say I've played it yet, but I'm not above it either!

 

[zaitcev]

Not that being here automatically makes us good pilots, but IMO the type of pilots who seek out opportunities such as PoA to interact with and learn from other pilots are more likely to be good, safe pilots.

I may be a cautious pilot who preflights with the best of them, but my ADM is questionable, and I am simply inept at basic airmanship. I tried to master Cessna 150 today with pretty dismal results. I don't think an informed person should be flying with me unless he's a CFI. But, 300+ posts at PoA!

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I've never heard of a CFI telling someone to not fly with another pilot. What a crummy thing to say! How are you supposed to experience different aircraft types? Are you supposed to be included in what can be a tightly knit group without sharing the thing that brought you together in the first place? It's not just bad advice he gave you; it's weird advice. Hangar flying with other pilots is fine, but it pales in comparison to real flying with other pilots.
As far as the CFI "trying to be safe' regarding maintenance of pilot-owned planes, et cetera, give me a frigging break. Does he ask every pilot he knows to haul out engine logs before a hamburger run? Does he ramp check his buddies for certification and medicals? If so, he must be wildly unpopular.
The only thing to make sure of when flying with other pilots is clear transfer of controls. Both of you need to know who's PIC and who's not... and the PIC needs to act like they are flying with a non-pilot. People have flown into the ground or other airplanes before because they expected "the other pilot" to do some of the cockpit work, like traffic avoidance or terrain awareness.
Other than that, go for it. And your CFI is a weirdo.

Argh. I hate defending my CFI on public forums. Weirdo or not, there is nothing wrong with someone wanting me to be cautious. But yes, his replies were very negative and very warning-tone filled. Not encouraging. But he listed reasons (safety, bad learning), stories of his own (he's flown with pilot buddies who wanted to do bad things), and had lots of "proof" of his opinion.

I posted here because I do know he may be in the minority when it comes to the advice he gives . . . and it may not end up mattering much, I still haven't flown with that other pilot.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I don't hear anything in the CFI's advice beyond the advice of one pilot to another to be cautious about who you go flying with, which isn't bad advice if you don't take it to an extreme, like refusing to ever fly with anybody.

You just have to take some care, do your best to get a feel for who the person is, what their attitudes are, etc. As a student, you shouldn't be shy about seeking out aviation experience, that's a good thing. A "ride-along" with a trusted pilot can be a great way to get air-time without it costing you a dime. You might find that flying as a passenger in the plane is just a fundamentally different experience, the stress level of being the pilot falls from your shoulders, and you're able to see and hear and notice things that you were just too busy to consider when it's your sweaty mitts death-gripping the yoke.

I don't know how you tell whether a pilot is trustworthy or not beyond just using your common-sense to sense who the rare exception is (i.e. somebody who just sets off some alarms in your head). Most pilots are plenty safe to do standard "fly around" stuff with. Be prudent, but don't be skittish. Ideally you can build up a network of pilots friends whose judgment you trust.
-harry

Thanks, Harry, for now I don't really have anyone to fly with. The original pilot lives far away and hasn't really been here due to weather and our schedules. Not sure if it will be a one time thing.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I think everyone might have a slightly variety in technique of how they fly, perhaps your CFI only wants you to do a certain technique?

How far along are you in your student training? You might be an excellent judge of character, but, are you far enough to know what he might do is unsafe? (the other pilot).

I would still say, go for it! It would probably be a great learning experience. Just the fact you met him at a pilot function probably says something. (I'm sure unsafe people go to safety seminars, but you probably meet alot more safety minded people there)

How far along am I in my student training?

(posted this in another thread, copying and pasting instead of typing again):

I came here from another board and notice a lot of members here that were there (recognize avatars) so I don't know if I should repeat my story......

Several times it has been suggested I switch CFI's but I really like my instructor and am "OK" with the fact that I didn't solo until 39 or 40 hours . . . . but talk to me between hours 25 and 40 and I was a whole different pilot! I have been with two other CFI's and he is nothing like them.

I haven't solo'd again (schedule / wx) but that was on May 7th. The issue was I think he wants students to be up to PTS standards rather than solo early and "clean up" their skills towards the checkride.... he didn't like my flare I guess. A crude video of my first landing is here - used a G-Mount and camcorder on side windshield (with stall horn and screaming like a girl at the end):

http://youtu.be/AYrE7V8RFEk

We did instrument including unusual attitudes, not done with the whole 3 hours but he likes to space that out. We did 3 "fake" cross countries that didn't count in my log book as cross country time - but good practice for the checkride and they had deviations so were not 50+ miles but I got lost on one and got to practice pilotage etc. We did VOR and two "real" cross countries, including one yesterday and now have 4-6 hours XC time in the book so that is done. We started some night flying and night landings too.... and have been working on short / soft (takeoffs and landings)

The next step is two more supervised solo's either in the pattern or to the practice area, then the big 100+ mile night cross country next week, finishing the remaining required night landings out of 10 landings, then I guess my solo XC (short) but not sure.

They "say" I'm pretty far along (I think I have 50+ or so hours now, not sure), but there always seem to be delays and setbacks and frustrations.... I took the written and got a 95 (thought I would fail) so that is out of the way but I have a lot to learn still and felt rusty yesterday after not flying for 1-2 weeks.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

I think that if you feel comfortable while talking to him for a while on the ground that, chances are, things will be OK. Watch out for the ones who try to impress you by showing off. Men will sometimes do that to young women. Like others have said, there are some pretty bad pilots out there. However, it usually works to use your gut feeling.

As far as your CFI goes, is he an older man? Does he take a paternalistic attitude toward you? This used to drive me nuts about some older men when I was young. I was too independent to want a father figure telling me what to do, not just about flying but life in general. That doesn't happen much any more at my age, one of the few advantages of getting older.

He is in his forties, and often talks to me more like a buddy or an equal, I don't really feel he's being too paternalistic (spelling?)

But, subconsciously, maybe he is. I'm not sure. I am not his first female student and thank God he is not like that other CFI who I flew with that said women don't have good night vision (men have more rods and cones in their eyes than women according to him) - ha. I didn't know whether to hit him or laugh.... it was strange.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Another point of view. Before I passed my checkride, I went for a few rides with other pilots. One was a PilotsNPaws flight that I really enjoyed and learned from. But one was with the owner of a new Cirrus. I mentioned I hadn't been in a new airplane, and he offered to take me up in it. The flight was fun....until the creep treated me like I was a hooker. Seriously. He was old enough to be father and he thought he could buy me. I told my CFI I was seriously ticked off at being treated that way, but he did nothing, because the creep spent alot of money at the airport, and as I learned during my time at that airport, all they cared about was how much money they could get.

I hope you keep going and pass your checkride and get that expensive piece of plastic!

Wow, that sounds awful, and actually not something I even thought about until just now. I was more worried about safety but yeah I have to remember about all the other boy / girl stuff. Yikes.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Here's my problem with your CFI...

What difference does it make whether you're a student pilot or a normal Joe Blow that happens to know a pilot? Is he indicating that people shouldn't fly on small planes because they're not safe?

It seems to me that you, as a person who has received some training already, would be better off going flying with these people than Joe Blow, because you can recognize danger more easily.

I really, really hate to say it, but if that is the attitude the instructor has (that GA is not a safe activity), then he is part of the problem we have right now. A CFI, more so than anyone else, should be a steward of aviation. He should be the one saying "Go flying, have fun" not "Stay on the ground, small planes are dangerous."

I hope I'm misunderstanding his point.

No - not really. I don't think you are misunderstanding him. In fact, I was surprised when I confronted him about it. Meaning, I was excited, I told him I met a man and a woman, married, both pilots, at a pilot dinner - and the man offered me his ATC radio training thing because I admitted we never fly with radios and I am rusty. That later, after a few emails regarding how he could send me the materials (he's far away) turned into him wanting to come to my airport and use the radios in one of his two planes "for real".... better than any training tapes. So I told him yes. He said he was an AOPA mentor and wanted to be a CFI in his retirement.

Separately, I brought it up after a lesson I had, during the debrief (or maybe it was on the phone) with my CFI - figuring if I am going on flights I should tell him since it may mean cancelling one of our planned lesson days. The "lecture" I got was very harsh.... and that's why I'm posting here. It is like he thinks I'm posting up ads wanting to fly with everyone and anyone - yet, since starting in January and not missing one week or two of flight lessons, I've never ONCE gone up in any airplane except the ones I am flying with a CFI . . . only been offered to do so twice, both unsolicited, both still want to but our schedules haven't jived.

Kimberly

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Ever stop to consider the CFI may just have a crush on the OP?

I can GUARANTEE YOU he does not. I do not want to go into details about why someone would hate me or not want to date me, but no, he does not have a crush on me and does not flirt either.

 

[EdFred]

Sounds like he either has 1) control issues or 2) a student or two in his past that he didn't feel he "babysat" enough, and they did something he felt responsible for. From what you've said, it sounds like he's really holding you back on being your own pilot. Now I'm not joining the camp of "fire him" but maybe talk with him more as to why he's fearful of you leaving the nest, and then if it seems a bit irrational, consider going up with another CFI and ask the second CFI his opinion on things.

 

[Bobcat1]

Why not just do what ya wanna do. He ain't your dad is he?

 

[DavidWhite]

Why not just do what ya wanna do. He ain't your dad is he?

He can yank your solo endorsement.

 

[Bobcat1]

He can yank your solo endorsement.

For what? Going on an airplane ride that wouldn't constitute an instructional flight? She's not breaking any FARs. She wouldn't be misusing the rental equipment. Sure, he has the means to yank the endorsement but should he do so, that would indicate that he's got some more serious issues going on there.

 

[Everskyward]

I can GUARANTEE YOU he does not. I do not want to go into details about why someone would hate me or not want to date me, but no, he does not have a crush on me and does not flirt either.

OK, but let me say this in a (cough) much older sisterly way. From your picture you seem like an attractive young woman so you shouldn't be surprised when people here are dancing around the fact that it might be a crush, a fatherly attitude, jealousy or protectiveness. We don't know much else about you so that is all we can go by.

As far as the boy/girl thing in flying goes you'll just have to accept the fact that there are not many female pilots and unless the proportions change radically that you will be in the minority. That's not saying its bad or good, but people will react to you differently because you are female. There are the jerks as you found out from your first post, but there will be other very well meaning people who say things that just come out... strange. I get questions that people would never think of asking a guy my age (I'm 50-something) such as, "How long have you been flying?" Uhh about 30 years... and "Why did you decide to learn?" I have never heard my male co-workers of any age being asked these questions. When I was younger I would be annoyed by the plethora of questions and comments because I wanted to consider myself just one of the guys, gender-neutral, or invisible, but I accept the way it is now. I think people handle it in different ways, though. I could probably do a much better job of promoting women in aviation if didn't try to play it down.

I don't know what advice to give you about your CFI, though. I think it all depends on how much it bothers you. What would annoy me or someone else might not be a big deal to you. However just the fact that you posted makes me guess that it bothers you to some extent.

 

[denverpilot]

And I've made that same stupid mistake asking that, "Why did you want to learn?" question of female pilot friends.

I think a lot of people asking that particular question really want to say, "So I'm a male pilot, and I'm completely baffled as to why there are so few female pilots, so I'm honestly wondering what was different in your life that caused you to pick up flying just like all the rest of us did, where so many women don't seem to have any interest in aviation at all."

It's usually that question that's on our mind, but it gets shortened to a sentence that's borderline offensive without even thinking about it.

Of course, after you've been around a while you figure out it's a huge jumble of social "norms", values, and lack of exposure -- amongst other things. And then you read whole 100-message threads devoted to the topic of, "How can aviation change this odd male/female ratio issue we have?" and realize a lot of it is actually *because* too many people ask these dumb questions in the first place.

Aviators are aviators. That's the best I can figure out. If you want to fly, you want to fly.

So I just cheer on anyone who loves to fly and especially cheer on aviators of both genders who are great at introducing new people to the best activity on Planet Earth. I took a local female radio personality up for the Centennial of Women in Aviation thing, but it was set up by Zyola, one of my co-hosts on the podcast, and she wasn't current at the time or she'd have done the flying. She just knew I'd take anyone flying, didn't matter what for.

Folks like Karlene Pettit (big in the Centennial of Women in Aviation events) and Lynda Meeks (GirlsWithWings.com) with their work to bring more women into aviation are minor "heroes" of mine, but mostly 'cause they're bringing in aviators.

Women or men, doesn't matter to me. Outreach gets me going, and right now the women are doing a better job at it than the men are.

I have an "always open" policy to all that I'll take 'em up anytime. It's a rare few who take me up on it. They all come back saying it was something special, but getting them to actually come to the airport is like pulling teeth. BBQ/breakfast/lunch, walking up to and through hangars with rare birds, descriptions of beautiful flights, bribery of saying they can shop Cabellas in Sydney, NE (ha, okay reserved for outdoorsy-types)... Virtually nothing works. Some have other things theyre "into" like boats or cars or RVs... But a lot just don't want to do anything out of the ordinary or just don't care to try new things. This floors me.

Anyway...

Best way to shut any pilot up or distract them from almost any stupid behavior, be it based in gender issues... or not...

Tell 'em you can out-fly their ass. And then do it.

 

[EdFred]

If I am asking why someone took up something it has nothing to do with their gender. I just want to know why they started up with it. For me, I was bored and wanted a challenge. I know that's not the reason most everyone else took it up, so I will ask.

 

[Everskyward]

Actually I get those two questions mostly from passengers (probably at least once a month) and not so much from other pilots but to be fair I meet far more new people who are passengers than pilots. A few years ago I learned to modify my answer to, "How long have you been flying?" with the answer, "since I was in college". When I was answering in years and it got to be up around 20-25 I could see people doing mental math and adding the, "But you don't look that old..." comment. As far as the question about why I became a pilot, you would think I could come up with some answer which sounds intelligent and well thought out, or at least some a-ha moment, but I can't. Maybe that's what makes that particular question a little uncomfortable for me. In general I would much rather answer questions about the airplane or flying in general than myself.

 

[gkainz]

"So, how long HAVE you been flying?"

"This is my first flight, but I did fly 4 hours yesterday."

 

[Everskyward]

"So, how long HAVE you been flying?"

"This is my first flight, but I did fly 4 hours yesterday."

And I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

Actually we do stay at quite a few HIEs. That explains it!

 

[wabower]

As to the "why you became a pilot" question, my response is that I'm not sure but suspect it's a combination of lack of intelligence and deep-seated character flaw. Then I tell them the good news is that my momma thinks I have a respectable job playing piano in a whorehouse.

Actually I get those two questions mostly from passengers (probably at least once a month) and not so much from other pilots but to be fair I meet far more new people who are passengers than pilots. A few years ago I learned to modify my answer to, "How long have you been flying?" with the answer, "since I was in college". When I was answering in years and it got to be up around 20-25 I could see people doing mental math and adding the, "But you don't look that old..." comment. As far as the question about why I became a pilot, you would think I could come up with some answer which sounds intelligent and well thought out, or at least some a-ha moment, but I can't. Maybe that's what makes that particular question a little uncomfortable for me. In general I would much rather answer questions about the airplane or flying in general than myself.

 

[Everskyward]

As to the "why you became a pilot" question, my response is that I'm not sure but suspect it's a combination of lack of intelligence and deep-seated character flaw. Then I tell them the good news is that my momma thinks I have a respectable job playing piano in a whorehouse.

I could never come up with something as profound as that.