Your Advice Regarding Flying With Other Pilots?

You need to stop in here more often. I'll devote whatever time is necessary to get you up to speed.

I enjoyed the visit last week, sorry I had to duck out for the grandkid ball game and Thursday turned into non-stop meetings. Let's try again next time.


Everskyward said:
I could never come up with something as profound as that. :eek: :D
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Mtns2Skies said:
I've noticed a lot on this board that if there is one minor issue with a CFI the automatic response is to fire them... why is that?
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I don't generally trot out the "Fire them" line often, but there's not many "minor" issues that go that way. Seriously, being a CFI isn't hard (getting the certificate is, but actually being one....not hard). You have to intelligently work with pilots and treat them like adults. You have to be able to fly.

But you have to be able to guide, and that is where most CFIs that I complain about are lacking. Sure, they fly, and the fly well, and sure they can teach. But seriously, any CFI that trots out "flying the step" or any of the other OWTs out there should not be teaching because they are essentially poisoning the minds of aviators. The reason these types of fallacies are so popular out there is because of bad CFIs.

Look at the ASRS report. Most of the bad information cycling around about that report is due to CFIs that either don't care (fire them), don't know (fire them), or blindly listened to someone else without checking facts (fire them). Each of these are very bad habits for a CFI to have because who know what else they have wrong. Maybe someone told them "Hey, I heard that the SFAR around Washington, D.C. doesn't apply on federal holidays." He tells his student (who already has a PPL), student trusts CFI, student busts regs...who gets in trouble? Certainly not the CFI.

You wil never hear me ever jump on a CFI's case because he can't fly a chandelle right, or because his steep turns are slightly out of compliance with the regs. Those can be learned. It is honestly my opinion that ANYONE can fly, and i mean that, anyone. Anyone can also teach, and I mean that, ANYONE. Flying is easy as hell.

But judgment? Not so much.

Just remember, you're paying more per hour for the instructor than you do for any other instruction that I can think of. I think its ok to expect them to show a little bit of interest in doing things right at $40 or $50 an hour.

I have yet to fly with a bad pilot, and perhaps I'm lucky or perhaps a large portion of pilots are infact good ones. But on each flight I have learned from them. All but two of them from this board, and one of them indirectly from this board.
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I have flown with a few. I've also flown with a few bad instructors. Both need the same remedial skills, and that's ok, because anyone can do it, and anyone can do it well. They just need to get out there and learn.

I will say this: I've only flown with a pilot who had monumentally bad judgment once, and it was really bad. That is just about the only person I've ever met that I don't think should be flying. That person probably shouldn't be driving either though.
 
It's tough for me to come to any sort of conclusion based on what I've read. That said, I can say that my teaching style is very much different then his. There just is no way I'd tell a student that they should only fly with me. Male or female.

Hell, I encourage them to shop for instructors on the first day. Not every student is the right fit for every instructor. We all try to adapt the best we can but there are times we may not be able to adapt enough.

Skyhog said:
You wil never hear me ever jump on a CFI's case because he can't fly a chandelle right, or because his steep turns are slightly out of compliance with the regs. Those can be learned. It is honestly my opinion that ANYONE can fly, and i mean that, anyone. Anyone can also teach, and I mean that, ANYONE. Flying is easy as hell.
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My experience as an instructor suggests otherwise. Perhaps I'm a bad one but I can tell you that not everyone will be a good CFI and there are some folks not fit for aviation.
 
I've seen it written that most anyone can learn to fly if enough effort and money are thrown at the problem. The aircraft control skills aren't particularly difficult (in general).

The judgment thing is the real question. A buddy of mine got his ticket a few months after I got the Dakota. I've watched him land in his 172 with winds gusting above 30 kts with thunderstorms in the vicinity. Last Thursday he told me a story about being above an overcast at 14,000+' in his Bonanza and looking for a hole to descend through. His O2 tank was in his hangar and he isn't instrument rated.

All that said, he flys straight and level while holding heading better than I do. He is a better control manipulator than me.

What concerns me is that he's going to run out of luck before he learns when to divert. He's gotten away with things long enough that he's in the mode of making the destination rather than just having a look.

Would I suggest someone take a ride around the patch with him? Sure.

Would I suggest someone take a cross-country ride with him? not so much.

I think that all I'm saying is similar to what other folks have said, it really is about judgment, not control skills. Of course we're all impressed with control skills and not so inclined to notice the head work until we read about it on the NTSB report.
 
my two cents: Getting flight time and just being comfortable in the airplane is a huge value to a new pilot in training. Your gut tells you more than logic might. If your questions aren't answered, or like another wrote someone is trying to impress you; use your best judgement as you do every day before launching.

I know pilots with over a thousand hours (I have my commercial single with 500 hours) I won't fly with. I have hours, but my 100 hours tail-wheel with aerobatic training is worth more to me than 100 hours of level flight. I also have 70+ actual IMC flight time logged with 300 hours x-country of trips with 400nm legs or longer.

My point (If any) is people have hours, but how those hours were spent is more important. The guy with one thousand hours is just to easy going on the rules, safety, and just cuts more corners than I'm willing to do. My gut tells me to not fly with him. I'll fly with a all types of pilots and people without their rating. My common sense taught to me better than just hours or another basic rule.

Only thing to always remember is your CFI is your instructor; not everyone else. Listen and ask questions, but his certificate and training is what signs you to fly solo and stay in the flight program. If you greatly differ on the requirements it's always best to shop for another instructor that fits you best.

-- Have fun!
 
Clark1961 said:
I've seen it written that most anyone can learn to fly if enough effort and money are thrown at the problem. The aircraft control skills aren't particularly difficult (in general).
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There are always exceptions. When I was a private pilot student, there was another student who took lessons once or twice a week for a YEAR before soloing. That individual must have had close to 100 hours before solo. I have no idea if that person ever passed a checkride, but I'd be shocked if so. In any case, that is one individual I don't think should be flying at all, and I don't think much of that CFI for not telling that student that. That CFI is just taking the money.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
But he listed reasons (safety, bad learning), stories of his own (he's flown with pilot buddies who wanted to do bad things), and had lots of "proof" of his opinion.
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It's possible to learn from people doing the right things, and it's also possible to learn from people doing the wrong things. If you see him doing something different than how you've been taught to do it, ask why. Then ask your CFI the same question about why you were taught to do it differently, and why he thinks the other guy might do it the way he does. Then, regardless of whether the other pilot is "right" or "wrong" you will have learned good things.

The reason I put "right" and "wrong" in quotes is that there are many things in aviation where there is no true right or wrong, they're just different techniques. Flying with other pilots and seeing how they do things is a great way to learn about techniques you haven't been taught and give you new ideas of how to do things that may be better than either the technique you had been using or the technique the other pilot used. If you're unsure of what all the benefits and drawbacks of a particular technique are, talk it over with your CFI. But, because many things aren't "right" or "wrong" you should make the decision for yourself which technique works best for you, based on as much information as you can find.

EDIT: One more thing comes to mind - It seems like your CFI is trying to ensure that you're an exact clone of him when it comes to flying. I don't think any one person knows the best way to do every single thing when it comes to flying. Largely for that reason, I have done every rating I have with a different CFI so as to learn as many different things as I can. Flying with lots of different pilots helps that, too. It sounds like the particular pilot you're talking about has his head on straight and flying with him would be a good learning experience for you. Go do it, and have fun! But I don't think your CFI's attitude is a bad thing, either - There are enough bad pilots and CFI's out there that his concern is warranted, but I think that as long as you don't blindly do what the other pilot does, and you discuss the benefits and drawbacks of the various techniques with your CFI, it will be a positive thing.
 
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Everskyward said:
Actually I get those two questions mostly from passengers (probably at least once a month) and not so much from other pilots but to be fair I meet far more new people who are passengers than pilots. A few years ago I learned to modify my answer to, "How long have you been flying?" with the answer, "since I was in college". When I was answering in years and it got to be up around 20-25 I could see people doing mental math and adding the, "But you don't look that old..." comment.
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Take it as a compliment. :yes: The average person wants to see a "graybeard" in the left seat, and a reasonably-young person in the right seat, the idea being that the "graybeard" will have lots of experience to draw from, and the younger FO will be able to take over and land if the "graybeard" has a medical problem.

You have the flying experience of a "graybeard," yet you are lucky enough to not have the gray or the wrinkles! They might actually prefer the "30 years" answer to the "since I was in college" answer, since the latter combined with your good looks will lead them to believe you are a lot less experienced than you are. :yes:
 
DutchessFlier said:
Anyone can also teach, and I mean that, ANYONE

Oh my friend, you are so so wrong about that.....
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I disagree. IMO anyone can indeed teach, but only the good ones can teach what you need to learn. Some folks can't teach you anything beyond the fact you need to learn from someone else.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
They might actually prefer the "30 years" answer to the "since I was in college" answer
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I was getting the feeling that the "30 years" answer was making them uncomfortable as in they were embarrassed to have asked that question. Besides I'm under no illusions that I look old enough to be quite a few years out of college (that is if I went at the normal age, which I did).
 
Everskyward said:
I was getting the feeling that the "30 years" answer was making them uncomfortable as in they were embarrassed to have asked that question. Besides I'm under no illusions that I look old enough to be quite a few years out of college (that is if I went at the normal age, which I did).
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Hey, that gives me an idea... I can say I've been flying since "8 years before I finished college." :rofl:
 
Thought it was funny you said your CFI was definitely not interested in you because he was older and married. Ha, watch out.

I'm 24 and recently passed my private pilot checkride. When I was training, I think I had around 5 hours and one day I went up with another instructor at the flight club (mine was not available). When I told my primary instructor, he was NOT HAPPY. At first I thought it was because he was jealous or something like this but later when I asked him about it, he gave a pretty good reason.

Turns out the other instructor I flew with had a poor record for students passing the checkride. One of his students was failed because during a power on stall, he was taught to reduce power at the stall "because otherwise you might spin".

Looking back on my ride with this instructor, it was a waste of my time and I didn't learn much. He let me try a few landings in a moderate (6 or 8 kt) crosswind and I had never even tried to land the plane before. This resulted in me landing flat, skidding, side loads, and it was almost a step backwards for me.

That said I think you're fine to ride with someone, unless your instructor particularly knows them and thinks they are unsafe. Just be cautious and unless you see any warning signs, have a good time. Check the weather yourself and make sure its good. You may want to say up front that you are new and that you are still nervous about stalls and steep turns and etc... and if you guys could avoid that, you would appreciate it.

If he starts doing unsafe things to show off, just tell him you're airsick and i'll bet he'll knock it off real quick so you don't puke in his plane. :eek:
 
No that was what I said about the pilot who I still haven't flow with.

My CFI is older than me and in a live-in relationship with a girlfriend and one or both of them has kids. However, I just know that he is NOT interested in me.

I mean, not everyone is interested in everyone else. You can just tell, you know? So I know he is not interested in me and in fact if I even sensed the SLIGHTEST hint of this or anything else un-professional for that matter I would not fly with a CFI ever.

I am paying them, between $50 - $65 per hour depending on the CFI. I am not there to flirt or mess around. I am there to learn. I am not interested in what they are wearing or how cute they look that day. Period.
 
tivometoo said:
I have hours, but my 100 hours tail-wheel with aerobatic training is worth more to me than 100 hours of level flight. I also have 70+ actual IMC flight time logged with 300 hours x-country of trips with 400nm legs or longer.

My point (If any) is people have hours, but how those hours were spent is more important. The guy with one thousand hours is just to easy going on the rules, safety, and just cuts more corners than I'm willing to do. My gut tells me to not fly with him. I'll fly with a all types of pilots and people without their rating. My common sense taught to me better than just hours or another basic rule.
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That reminds me of the perfect question when it comes to pilot experience.

Someone says "I have 1,000 hours"
You say "Do you have 1,000 hours? or do you have 1 hour, 1,000 times? big difference"

Flying around the traffic pattern for 1,000 hours really counts for next to nothing, in terms of real world cross country flying with various weather.
 
As for your CFI I would say if you like him then keep him. You can still fly with other people he would just like you not to.
It sounds like you already made this choice on your own already.:)
I have flown with a few other pilots most of them from here in fact. It is fun and like others have said it is nice to see how people do things.
I have only flown with one person I will not fly with again. He did not scare me with his flying in fact he is a good stick and rudder guy. The reason I will not fly with him is his judgment. I found out about that because I use to work with him and listening to him brag about the stupid thing he did.
Now after you get your ticket you need to goto a POA flyin and go up with some other people.
 
ajstoner21 said:
That reminds me of the perfect question when it comes to pilot experience.

Someone says "I have 1,000 hours"
You say "Do you have 1,000 hours? or do you have 1 hour, 1,000 times? big difference"
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Then there's the other one about it not mattering how many hours you have. It's the next one that counts.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Flying around the traffic pattern for 1,000 hours really counts for next to nothing, in terms of real world cross country flying with various weather.
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On the other hand we have international airliner captains that can't land, because they don't get the cycles to which regional drivers are exposed. And every article "how to retain proficiency on 35 hours a year" says stop wasting time on cross-countries and just do TGs as much as you can.
 
zaitcev said:
On the other hand we have international airliner captains that can't land, because they don't get the cycles to which regional drivers are exposed. And every article "how to retain proficiency on 35 hours a year" says stop wasting time on cross-countries and just do TGs as much as you can.
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I never do Touch and Go's because they don't count for currency (in a taildragger). A stop and go only takes a few extra seconds...
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
No that was what I said about the pilot who I still haven't flow with.

My CFI is older than me and in a live-in relationship with a girlfriend and one or both of them has kids. However, I just know that he is NOT interested in me.

I mean, not everyone is interested in everyone else. You can just tell, you know? So I know he is not interested in me and in fact if I even sensed the SLIGHTEST hint of this or anything else un-professional for that matter I would not fly with a CFI ever.

I am paying them, between :eek: I am not there to flirt or mess around. I am there to learn. I am not interested in what they are wearing or how cute they look that day. Period.
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If I charge you only $25/hr will you tell me how cute I look and flirt? :D

$25/hr is what I charge for flight instruction. $65/hr?!?!? California is a ripoff!
 
EdFred said:
If I charge you only $25/hr will you tell me how cute I look and flirt? :D

$25/hr is what I charge for flight instruction. $65/hr?!?!? California is a ripoff!
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Dude. For $25? Can I schedule my next flight review with you? (And I'll tell you whatever you want to hear)
 
Sure can. Except....I need a T/W endorsement.
 
EdFred said:
If I charge you only $25/hr will you tell me how cute I look and flirt? :D

$25/hr is what I charge for flight instruction. $65/hr?!?!? California is a ripoff!
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I spent just shy of $1,000 on an IPC in California about a year and a half ago. 2.8 hours in flight, 3.5 with the CFII. Most expensive single-engine flying I've ever done.

Of course, it was a shiny new G1000-equipped DA40 with a national CFI of the year, so I didn't exactly feel ripped off - But the airplane rental rate was at least $15/hr higher than would be expected in other states, and the sales tax added a hefty chunk, too.
 
My IPC was 5 hours. I only paid for fuel. Oh, wait it was in my Comanche. lol
 
EdFred said:
Sure can. Except....I need a T/W endorsement.
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Do you?

Seriously - If Capt. Thorpe is still eligible to act as PIC during his flight review, must the flight instructor also be eligible to act as PIC (or as a required crew member)?

Seems to me this would be similar to conducting flight instruction without a medical certificate.
 
JoeSelch said:
Do you?

Seriously - If Capt. Thorpe is still eligible to act as PIC during his flight review, must the flight instructor also be eligible to act as PIC (or as a required crew member)?

Seems to me this would be similar to conducting flight instruction without a medical certificate.
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61.56 says
"...flight training..." and "...authorized instructor..."

If I'm not authorized to give someone an endorsement, I can't really give them training.
 
tonycondon said:
it took you 5 hours to do an IPC? did you have a lobotomy?
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No. But I needed 5 hours of training with an instructor for insurance purposes so the whole flight was logged on one line as an IPC. Flew a couple airways a LOC-BC, and ILS and a VOR and he called it good. (I think those are the three we flew) Took less time than to go out and fly 6 of em, and I hadn't been on instruments in over 2 years prior to that. 2 years off from flying instruments and I thought the HSI was broken because it never moved from center once acquired. Jesse has nothing on me.
 
EdFred said:
61.56 says
"...flight training..." and "...authorized instructor..."

If I'm not authorized to give someone an endorsement, I can't really give them training.
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Interesting, I've never looked at the privileges/limitations of a CFI cert before, but just scanning 61.193 and 61.195, I don't see anything there that says you're NOT authorized to give them training or, for that matter, either the BFR or even the initial tailwheel endorsement, as totally insane as that sounds.

61.193 (g) says you are authorized to train and issue a flight review endorsement within the limitations of your flight instructor certificate and ratings (not endorsements).

61.195 (b) says you need ratings in category and class (which you have) and, if required, a type rating (which isn't required).

61.195 (d) "Limitations on endorsements" , (5) says you have to conduct a review of the pilot in accordance with 61.56 (a).

So where, specifically, does it say that you need the endorsement for (tailwheel, complex, high performance, etc.) in order to give training in a (tailwheel, complex, high performance, etc.) aircraft in which you have the appropriate category and class ratings on both your pilot and instructor certificates?
 
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http://www.avweb.com/news/avmail/184110-1.html

We took your question about the tailwheel BFR to the local FSDO, who shot it up to the FAA Headquarters, who just came out with this official stance:

Question: The situation is a flight instructor has asked the question whether he can give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane and yet he has not previously met the additional training requirements for operating a tailwheel airplane [i.e., § 61.31(i)].

Answer: Ref. § 61.1(b)(2); § 61.56(c)(1); No, a flight instructor cannot give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane unless he has complied with § 61.31(i). Per § 61.56(c)(1), it states, in pertinent part, ". . . by an authorized instructor . . . ." Per § 61.1(b)(2)(ii), it states, in pertinent part, ". . . in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate . . . ." The flight instructor would not be considered an "authorized instructor" for giving a flight review in a tailwheel airplane.
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Yes, in accordance with the privileges and limitations of the flight instructor certificate, which is why I went to 61.193 and 61.195 -- which nowhere says (as far as I can tell) what they say it says.

I know that what it says is less important than what they say it's meant to say... but it would be clearer if it actually SAID it. <sigh>
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I spent just shy of $1,000 on an IPC in California about a year and a half ago. 2.8 hours in flight, 3.5 with the CFII. Most expensive single-engine flying I've ever done.

Of course, it was a shiny new G1000-equipped DA40 with a national CFI of the year, so I didn't exactly feel ripped off - But the airplane rental rate was at least $15/hr higher than would be expected in other states, and the sales tax added a hefty chunk, too.
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Sales tax? I don't think I'm being charged sales tax? Did you pay tax on the rental rate or the instructor rate or both? I thought it was illegal to put sales tax on services in California (but not goods, just services such as flight instruction). Maybe I'm wrong. But I know I'm getting a "good deal" at 80 bucks an hour for my 152 (plus fuel surcharge).

Kimberly
 
EdFred said:
If I charge you only $25/hr will you tell me how cute I look and flirt? :D

$25/hr is what I charge for flight instruction. $65/hr?!?!? California is a ripoff!
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Holey moley. I could save a lot of money by flying with you. Too bad you are so far away. How much is your plane per hour? And what would it cost for a round trip ticket from SFO or OAK to your airport? Seriously, I hadn't even considered going elsewhere for my training.


Kimberly
 
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