Your Advice Regarding Flying With Other Pilots?

kimberlyanne546

kimberlyanne546

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Kimberly
Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum but not to another pilot forum.

I asked this question there, but my flight with the pilot has been rescheduled due to weather.

The question is this: what do you advise students / what are your own rules regarding flying with someone else?

My CFI is very concerned about this and would probably be happiest if I do not fly with pilots - especially since any of them will be people I've only met in person once or twice at a 99s meeting or something like that . . .

I like that he is being safe asking questions about the plane they own, how is it maintained, how do I know they have a current pilot cert etc.... but I have heard mixed things like "my CFI encourages me to get in the air every chance I can" and things like that.

So - wanted to ask for opinions here. Personally, I would like to fly more often and if that means going up with other pilots (as a passenger) I was open to that.... but then started thinking about the risks and what my CFI said.

I also have been thinking about Angel Flight (mission assistant) or Paws for Pilots (mission assistant) or Civil Air Patrol.....


Thanks for any inputs before I get in any planes!


Kimberly
 
Wait a minute - why is your CFI telling you he doesn't want you flying with other pilots? What's the deal there? If any CFI ever told me that, I would fire him on the spot, no discussion.

I'm guessing you are a student pilot and this CFI is teaching you for your PPL, is that correct? I found it quite helpful when I was at that point in life to fly with other pilots, I paid attention, talked about what was going on, and learned an awful lot from the other persons perspective on flying. I was lucky enough to have several friends in corporate aviation and spent a fair amount of time in the right seat of some high performance twin turboprops, and the teaching I received there about cockpit resource management, checklists, and procedures proved invaluable to me later on. At one point shortly before I went for my checkride my CFI actually commented "I can tell you've been flying with your corporate buddies again, that's good."

Go fly with them - as often as you can and with as many of them as you can - and learn from them. Assuming the other pilot is NOT a CFI, you can't log those hours as dual, but you can still learn while sitting in the right seat. Most pilots (certainly not all, but most) will be happy to help a student learn things, and it's always good to see things from a fresh perspective to better your understanding. If the CFI is trying to control your exposure to flying, I would seriously question his motives - as I was looking for another CFI.
 
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Again, he has an opinion (and over 10,000 hours as a CFI). He can't stop me from doing anything but he has shared stories of when he flew with other pilots.... his point being you never know what they might do out there on the flight that is not safe.

I value your opinion too however I will not fire him for having an overly conservative opinion. I already told him, in this case, I am GOING with the pilot who offered me a ride. He is coming from far away and is gonna help me with radios since I rarely do ATC stuff at my untowered airport. I don't know that I want to fly his plane though, from the right seat, I'd rather just watch - not expecting too much other than fun.

My CFI is concerned I will learn / pick up bad habits he will then have to "unteach" me to do in the cockpit, costing me money. So basically he is saying after I get my PPL I will "know better" but right now he thinks I may not know enough this early in my training to know right from wrong. For some reason he thinks I am naive.
 
PS - I am not naive.

Naive: having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous: She's so naive she believes everything she reads. He has a very naive attitude toward politics.
 
There are two issues here Kimberly;

1) your CFI not wanting you to fly with other pilots. Simple way to understand why is just to ask him. My guess is he is going to say he doesn't want you to pick up bad habits. IMHO I don't think thats a valid reason.

2)Your concern over getting into a plane with someone competent. A very valid concern and a tough question to answer. As you fly more an more it will be easier to know who does and does not meet your comfort level. I have flown with great pilots and pilots that have scared the crap out of me. You can't tell by looking at them, although Jesse Angell does have a shirt taht says worlds greatest pilot and he is pretty good. :) Seriously you can't and you can't tell by how nice their plane it. I know guys with 45 year old cherokees that are amazing pilots and guys with brand spanking new Cirrus who are just waiting to be a statistic.

I will tell you that I avoid flying with pilots who on the ground have those deadly attitudes you know denial, complacency, think authority does not apply to them. I also avoid guys that brag a lot or think they are amazing because they cheated death or broke some rules and got away with it.
 
Thanks, I actually got concerned and brought up my concerns with the pilot. He was really cool and said we would meet first, sit down, plan our flights, and not do anything I was uncomfortable doing. He even offered to go over some other things with me I've been learning about (spark plug fouling, etc). He wants to be a CFI one day and owns / flies two planes almost every day or every other day. I met him at a pilot function.

Kimberly
 
Your life. Your money. Your decisions.

Heck, my current student went up with another CFI!!!!

Teh h0rr0rz!!!!! :eek: :eek:

Your CFI needs to take some advice from Sgt Hulka: "Lighten up Francis"
 
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I've never heard of a CFI telling someone to not fly with another pilot. What a crummy thing to say! How are you supposed to experience different aircraft types? Are you supposed to be included in what can be a tightly knit group without sharing the thing that brought you together in the first place? It's not just bad advice he gave you; it's weird advice. Hangar flying with other pilots is fine, but it pales in comparison to real flying with other pilots.
As far as the CFI "trying to be safe' regarding maintenance of pilot-owned planes, et cetera, give me a frigging break. Does he ask every pilot he knows to haul out engine logs before a hamburger run? Does he ramp check his buddies for certification and medicals? If so, he must be wildly unpopular.
The only thing to make sure of when flying with other pilots is clear transfer of controls. Both of you need to know who's PIC and who's not... and the PIC needs to act like they are flying with a non-pilot. People have flown into the ground or other airplanes before because they expected "the other pilot" to do some of the cockpit work, like traffic avoidance or terrain awareness.
Other than that, go for it. And your CFI is a weirdo.
 
The more that I've flown in the past 40 years, the less that I think that I know. There are a whole bunch of folks out there who know a lot less than I do.

Just be careful out there.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
The question is this: what do you advise students / what are your own rules regarding flying with someone else?

I advise them to get as much experience as possible, knowing that each pilots has their way of doing things, note what they do and ask why they do it that way, talk about it with your CFI.


So - wanted to ask for opinions here. Personally, I would like to fly more often and if that means going up with other pilots (as a passenger) I was open to that.... but then started thinking about the risks and what my CFI said.

I wouldn't worry too much about that.

I also have been thinking about Angel Flight (mission assistant) or Paws for Pilots (mission assistant) or Civil Air Patrol.....


Thanks for any inputs before I get in any planes!


Kimberly
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Please don't fly junk, there are a lot of aircraft that are not being well maintained. If it looks like junk it probably is, Cosmetics aren't every thing, but they do reflect on the owner.
 
There are some really bad pilots out there. I believe that it was Diana that had a story about a ride that put her off from flying for several years.

It's hard to tell up front if someone is competent or not. Though sometimes word gets "around"...
 
I go up with other pilots every chance I get. I don't understand why your CFI wouldn't want you to, if he/she you are flying with have bad habits, let them have bad habits and rest in the satisfaction that you know how to do it right.
 
Just my 2¢, but on first take it sounds like your CFI is afraid you might find out there are other ways to fly a plane than the way he's teaching you and he is insecure with that.

10k hr pilots crash, too. Even CFIs.
 
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I too am not so discriminating about who I fly with. Heck I have flown with some of the pilots on this very board and survived! :D:D:D

If you are worried, I would do this. Before accepting a ride, make sure you chat with the person a bit first. You can weed out some of the lunatics right there. Taken further you might ask around about how a person flies, not an unreasonable thing to do. Many accident reports include stories of how a person had previously been seen doing unbelievable things...and such behavior will not go unnoticed around the field.

To not go flying with anyone else will significantly limit your aviation experience and skill set.
 
I don't hear anything in the CFI's advice beyond the advice of one pilot to another to be cautious about who you go flying with, which isn't bad advice if you don't take it to an extreme, like refusing to ever fly with anybody.

You just have to take some care, do your best to get a feel for who the person is, what their attitudes are, etc. As a student, you shouldn't be shy about seeking out aviation experience, that's a good thing. A "ride-along" with a trusted pilot can be a great way to get air-time without it costing you a dime. You might find that flying as a passenger in the plane is just a fundamentally different experience, the stress level of being the pilot falls from your shoulders, and you're able to see and hear and notice things that you were just too busy to consider when it's your sweaty mitts death-gripping the yoke.

I don't know how you tell whether a pilot is trustworthy or not beyond just using your common-sense to sense who the rare exception is (i.e. somebody who just sets off some alarms in your head). Most pilots are plenty safe to do standard "fly around" stuff with. Be prudent, but don't be skittish. Ideally you can build up a network of pilots friends whose judgment you trust.
-harry
 
An hour or two with someone else isn't going to unlearn all the stuff your instructor has taught you. Besides, it might open your eyes to the fact that there are more ways than one to do something. What you might learn is how all the little things your instructor has been teaching you roll up into flying somewhere fun.
I flew with other pilots during my primary training. I've also taken students along for a fun ride. I can't see the exposure as something bad.
As to knowing whether this other pilot is current, has a well maintained plane, or a certified wacko, you just listen to the chatter around the FBO. You could look him up on the FAA database, look up his plane, or google him or his plane. If the stories start off with NTSB then you have your caution.
I got the same warning from my instructor when I was working on my instrument training. In this case, he wanted to be sure I didn't start doing things wrong.
Still.... a hour or two with someone else shouldn't hurt.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
.... his point being you never know what they might do out there on the flight that is not safe.
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You already have a huge advantage over the average passenger who has had no flight training in judging the safety of a pilot you fly with.
 
I think everyone might have a slightly variety in technique of how they fly, perhaps your CFI only wants you to do a certain technique?

How far along are you in your student training? You might be an excellent judge of character, but, are you far enough to know what he might do is unsafe? (the other pilot).

I would still say, go for it! It would probably be a great learning experience. Just the fact you met him at a pilot function probably says something. (I'm sure unsafe people go to safety seminars, but you probably meet alot more safety minded people there)
 
Obviously the very conservative CFI in question has had a bad experience sometime in those 10,000 hours. The only addition I can make to this conversation is that once you get in the right seat, you are a passenger. You go along for the ride. The only way you get input is if you are asked, if the pilot dies, or if you think you are about to. Other than that you get to ride along and make nice conversation.
 
I think the concern about that young man, with whom you are sharing the fligh planning, being or not being a safe pilot is very valid. I would be particularly worried about attempts to impress. You can mitigate is to a large extent by saying up front "you do anything you would not dare do on a checkride and you never get into my panties, ever". And if you see any red flags, just don't go. There is no obligation, not even a moral one.

That said, I experienced this from the other side, by sharing a flight with a fellow pilot Brian. He's got a half more hours than I and is a cautious pilot, as I learned when we swapped the PIC position. And I sure gave him a couple of scares.

First time was when we approached a mountain pass and it was pretty clear that 1. we're not going to have 2000 ft clearance, but more like 1000, and 2. I wasn't flying at proper 45 degrees to ridgeline, more like 60 degrees. As the terrain on the other side was taking its sweet time to become visible, Brian was getting more and more nervouis and eventually said "we won't make it, we have to turn back". I was getting ready to turn back (immediately) if caught in a good downdraft, but not before. So I just kept it to Vx to make him feel better about AGL and eventually we made it fine on the other side.

Second time was when we made the first landing together. I settled nicely on the final like I always do and things were peachy until the time for a round-out, when Brian suddenly grabbed the right yoke. A tug-o-war ensued while the airplane was flaring. Miraclously, nothing too bad happened. As it turned out, he thought that I was not going to flare and expected a hard landing. The reason for it was that as an Instrument student Brian was conditioned to keep to the "big boy" glideslope and my steeper approach disoriented him somewhat.

Now if Brian were an impressionable young lady with 15 hours who's preparing for her XCs, I think it would be natural for her CFI to be concerned that she'd start buzzing mountain ridges and bombing unfamiliar runways after being exposed to examples. Thinking back, my flying had a large room for improvement.

-- Pete
 
I don't see the CFI's concern as being a bad thing. He simply doesn't want her to be in this position:

http://kstp.com/news/stories/S1085274.shtml?cat=1
http://www.startribune.com/local/west/53048902.html
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20090812X34906&ntsbno=CEN09FA518&akey=1
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30664

kimberlyanne546 said:
Thanks, I actually got concerned and brought up my concerns with the pilot. He was really cool and said we would meet first, sit down, plan our flights, and not do anything I was uncomfortable doing. He even offered to go over some other things with me I've been learning about (spark plug fouling, etc). He wants to be a CFI one day and owns / flies two planes almost every day or every other day. I met him at a pilot function.
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And those things make me think that this guy is probably a good pilot and you'll learn from him.

Take the flight. Take notes on what he does differently or anything else you notice, and ask him why. Then ask your CFI why he does those things the way he does them - I bet you'll learn a lot.

Have fun!
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Thanks, I actually got concerned and brought up my concerns with the pilot. He was really cool and said we would meet first, sit down, plan our flights, and not do anything I was uncomfortable doing. He even offered to go over some other things with me I've been learning about (spark plug fouling, etc). He wants to be a CFI one day and owns / flies two planes almost every day or every other day. I met him at a pilot function.
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I think that if you feel comfortable while talking to him for a while on the ground that, chances are, things will be OK. Watch out for the ones who try to impress you by showing off. Men will sometimes do that to young women. Like others have said, there are some pretty bad pilots out there. However, it usually works to use your gut feeling.

As far as your CFI goes, is he an older man? Does he take a paternalistic attitude toward you? This used to drive me nuts about some older men when I was young. I was too independent to want a father figure telling me what to do, not just about flying but life in general. That doesn't happen much any more at my age, one of the few advantages of getting older. :rofl:
 
Another point of view. Before I passed my checkride, I went for a few rides with other pilots. One was a PilotsNPaws flight that I really enjoyed and learned from. But one was with the owner of a new Cirrus. I mentioned I hadn't been in a new airplane, and he offered to take me up in it. The flight was fun....until the creep treated me like I was a hooker. Seriously. He was old enough to be father and he thought he could buy me. I told my CFI I was seriously ticked off at being treated that way, but he did nothing, because the creep spent alot of money at the airport, and as I learned during my time at that airport, all they cared about was how much money they could get.

I hope you keep going and pass your checkride and get that expensive piece of plastic!
 
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The only two times I'd consider your CFI to be justifiably worried is if the pilot wasn't current (no medical / BFR, et al.) or of he KNEW pilot X was unsafe.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
PS - I am not naive.

Naive: having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous: She's so naive she believes everything she reads. He has a very naive attitude toward politics.
Click to expand...

<sarcasm>
But, but... you're blonde! You MUST be naive!
</sarcasm>

Your CFI does have a point in that you can learn bad habits from other pilots while you're still in the "nestling" stage of becoming a pilot yourself, and then you have to work hard to retrain yourself to proper habits, which is more work for him too (but shouldn't bother him because it's also more $$ to him)

That said, I think he may be overcautious. I've been a "substitute" CFI a few times lately for others at my school who had illness or other conflicts, and it's worked out fine. As long as you can distinguish between "instruction" from a competent CFI and "examples" from another pilot, it shouldn't do any significant harm to your learning.
 
^^^^ This

I flew with other pilots, and 3 CFIs before my ticket. And I picked up some bad habits / inaccuracies from a couple pilots.... although it was small things. I also learned some good habits. I would suggest flying with as many people as you can before the check ride. Especially other CFIs. Some miss something and a different view point helps.

I also now know a pilot at work, that I WILL NOT fly with again.
 
I wouldn't have a problem with my students flying with other folks, but I will be honest and say that there are folks around that if I suspect my student was going to be flying with, that I would urge a significant amount of caution with. And yes, I've seen some really bad habits picked up from other flying, and especially other CFIs. I'm not naive enough to think that I've never taught a student a bad habit, either, so I guess I'd be careful where I threw stones.

Ryan
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
There are some really bad pilots out there. I believe that it was Diana that had a story about a ride that put her off from flying for several years.

It's hard to tell up front if someone is competent or not. Though sometimes word gets "around"...
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When I was a newly minted private pilot I would go flying with anyone who would let me. I naively assumed that anyone who had a plane or access to one was legal and competent nor did I have any concerns about someone killing me in an airplane. Today I still don't have any way to assess a pilot's ability from their looks or for the most part from what they say and I've never asked to see another pilot's certificate and medical to confirm they were legal to fly before going up with them. But for the most part I feel I have become capable of determining if they are safe while I'm riding with them and I have no qualms about suggesting/requesting/insisting on a change in behavior if I feel their actions are unacceptable.

But I would also recommend that anyone with insufficient experience to pull that off inquire about the skills and attitudes of any pilot they're considering a flight with before accepting. Other than your own CFI, you could try the chief pilot at the flight school (whether or not you're a student there) and there are usually a few "old timers" around who might be willing to offer an opinion on the matter. Try to find ones that have first hand experience with the pilot in question as that tends to be more accurate than hearsay but if you get the same story from multiple sources there's likely some truth to it. DE's are another good source for this kind of info, especially if they've given the pilot one or more checkrides.

A good friend of my friend's daughter (my friend and his daughter are pilots) was killed in a crash by a pilot who shouldn't have been flying and while there were a few warning signs in the guy's attitude towards maintenance the woman who was killed had no way of knowing what the pilot was like. She (friend's daughter's friend) was a student pilot and when asked by the pilot if she wanted to accompany him on the maiden flight of a twin beech he'd been working on she readily agreed (as I would have when I was a student). But it turned out that the plane wasn't airworthy and the pilot wasn't qualified to fly it. Even if the pilot had a valid ferry permit (he didn't) he wouldn't have been allowed to carry any passengers on the flight.

http://tinyurl.com/beech18crash
 
Remember too that someone's qualifications do not necessarily make them the safest pilot to fly with. The person who comes to mind as the guy who liked to show off in small airplanes was my former boss when I was a CFI who was a B-737 captain in his other job.
 
Approximately 10% of aircraft accidents are due to equipment failure, the other 90% are due to pilot stupdity. I'd spend more time worrying about the big number.

Tom-D said:
Please don't fly junk, there are a lot of aircraft that are not being well maintained. If it looks like junk it probably is, Cosmetics aren't every thing, but they do reflect on the owner.
Click to expand...
 
I think the biggest single benefit to flying with other pilots is that they are doing the flying and you are doing the sitting and watching. As a student pilot, you can expect that your plate will be full during most instruction sessions, and that most of your brain cells are used up with the tasks being learned. As a result, you don't have much time to just sit and look at stuff with time available to figure it out.

IMO, whatever "bad habits" you might pick up from such activity are unlikely to be of consequence in your development as a pilot. Nor is it an absolute certainty that everything your current CFI is teaching is the best way to do it.

If you observe a pilot doing things differently than the way you're being taught, ask him/her why they do it that way. There's usually a reason. Then share that information with your CFI to get a second opinion. Most questions about aviation-related subjects have more than one answer.
 
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Everskyward said:
Remember too that someone's qualifications do not necessarily make them the safest pilot to fly with. The person who comes to mind as the guy who liked to show off in small airplanes was my former boss when I was a CFI who was a B-737 captain in his other job.
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Well, I just got back from a ride with the airline pilot across the street - it was the first time I rode with him in my airplane - he did OK - had some fun with the tons of adverse yaw that my little LSA has, and he got into some rudder overcontrol on the landing, but not bad for his first tailwheel landing in a decade or so.
 
The had part about flying with other pilots is determining who constitutes a good pilot to fly with. When I was a new pilot, I had several other pilots I flew with. This was a bad idea - as they were dangerous pilots who created increased workload and hazards for me, simply by being in the airplane.

It's not always obvious who the good pilots to fly with are. It's not always the people who've been flying for a long time, because some of them are dangerous and don't understand what they're doing, they're just lucky.

But, you should fly with other pilots. Good ones, who can teach you new things. I still like doing that, I usually learn something. Sometimes I learn something not to do.
 
Go with him and fly his airplane tomorrow, then post his report of your performance.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Well, I just got back from a ride with the airline pilot across the street - it was the first time I rode with him in my airplane - he did OK - had some fun with the tons of adverse yaw that my little LSA has, and he got into some rudder overcontrol on the landing, but not bad for his first tailwheel landing in a decade or so.
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Here's my problem with your CFI...

What difference does it make whether you're a student pilot or a normal Joe Blow that happens to know a pilot? Is he indicating that people shouldn't fly on small planes because they're not safe?

It seems to me that you, as a person who has received some training already, would be better off going flying with these people than Joe Blow, because you can recognize danger more easily.

I really, really hate to say it, but if that is the attitude the instructor has (that GA is not a safe activity), then he is part of the problem we have right now. A CFI, more so than anyone else, should be a steward of aviation. He should be the one saying "Go flying, have fun" not "Stay on the ground, small planes are dangerous."

I hope I'm misunderstanding his point.
 
SkyHog said:
I really, really hate to say it, but if that is the attitude the instructor has (that GA is not a safe activity), then he is part of the problem we have right now. A CFI, more so than anyone else, should be a steward of aviation. He should be the one saying "Go flying, have fun" not "Stay on the ground, small planes are dangerous."
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There are lots of people who I won't get into a plane with, just as there are lots of people I wouldn't get in a car with. It is prudent to not let certain people be in positions where they can influence you making it home alive.

Seems more likely to me the instructor doesn't want the student confused at this point in training with conflicting ideas, which may disagree with the PTS that the student is being trained to.
 
And I wasn't dissing airline pilots. This guy would have been a you-know-what if the biggest thing he ever flew was a 152. I finally quit, not so much because of his flying habits since I didn't fly with him more than a time or two but I heard much more from some of his "victims". However he took about the same attitude towards business ethics as flying and I didn't want to be involved at all. I also got a much better job...
 
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