Would you have declared?

jimhorner

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Jim Horner
This past Saturday I was flying the family from San Jose with a planned destination of Wenatchee, WA. We stopped first in Livermore to refuel (No way I'm paying San Jose fuel prices) and then headed off Northbound. Added to the circumstances was that my 18 year old son needed to be in Wenatchee by Sunday morning for a hockey tryout with the Wenatchee Wild.

Just past Travis AFB, my overvoltage relay tripped taking the alternator offline. Per the POH, I cycled the master in an attempt to reset the relay. Initially that appeared to work, but a few minutes later it happened again, and cycling the master did not fix the problem. The POH suggests trying to cycle the alternator breaker (Either main or field) if cycling the master didn't work, but when I pulled the main breaker a fairly significant puff of smoke came out of the breaker. Needless to say, I left it pulled. No additional smoke or evidence of electrical fire was present with the master either on or off.

So at this point, all of my electrical equipment- radios, transponder, lights, GPS, etc. - was running on battery, and the battery was fairly rapidly depleting. The low voltage warning was on immediately. I let NORCAL know what was going on and cancelled IFR so I wouldn't have to be talking to them. Turned off the master to save battery and then spent a few minutes reviewing options. If I landed in the vicinity, there would be no way to get my son to Wenatchee, and the plane would probably be stuck in an inconvenient location far from home. No more smoke or other indications of any electrical fire, and the plane was flying fine, so I made the decision to go back to San Jose and catch an Alaska Airlines flight out that evening to Wenatchee.

I turned on the master again to let NORCAL know the plan. San Jose is within the San Francisco Class B mode C veil, and I was a bit concerned about that. I let NORCAL know that I wanted to go back to SJC without a transponder, and they cleared me for that. They asked if I wanted to declare an emergency, but I didn't see the need at that time. I informed them that I was going back to SJC and that I would be without radios or transponder until reaching the Embassy Suites, VPEMB, landmark just at the edge of the KSJC Class C at which point I would turn the radios back on to talk to SJC. They cleared me for that plan, and I turned the master back off to save battery juice.

Weather was CAVU, and navigating was easy with Mt. Diablo as a clear landmark in the distance.

Just before reaching VPEMB, I used the emergency gear extension procedure to drop the gear because that procedure doesn't require electrical power like the normal procedure does. Turned on the master to confirm 3 green lights and called up San Jose to let them know the situation. They cleared me to land on 30R, I lowered the flaps to half (electrical drain) and switched off.

As we were on final, my wife pointed out that San Jose had rolled the fire trucks which were waiting next to the runway with their flashers on. Clearly, San Jose had declared an emergency for me. No problems with the landing, and I powered up the radios once clear of the runway for taxi instructions. Got the "How many souls on board?" question then.

I was even followed to my hangar by an airport ops guy who congrstulated me on a nice landing and wanted to get a few more details of what happened. That was it. He confirmed that the tower had declared on my behalf.

So, that's the situation. We were never in any danger, the plane was flying fine, and the only real issue was coming into the mode C veil without a transponder and landing at a Class C without communications. I didn't see the need to declare since NORCAL and San Jose were aware of the situation and cleared me for it. What I'm interested in is the opinion of others here. Would you have declared an emergency in the same situation? If so, why? Would you have done anything differently? Landed at the nearest airport instead of flying 30 min back to San Jose, perhaps?


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I think you brought this on yourself by not buying fuel at your home airport. :) Seriously, good job though. Since the weather was solid VFR, I don't think I would have declared either. I don't know if I would have headed back to SJC (but I'm saying that from the comfort of my couch!)
 
Been in a similar situation and didn't even think about declaring an emergency.
 
Might not have been a FULL BLOWN emergency, but it makes for some pretty good talk back at the base huh?
 
Only thing declaring would have done is allowed NorCal to clear other traffic so you could get on the ground as quickly as possible, but did not sound like that was an issue from your end. Declaring can actually make their job easier in helping you.

During a TRACON tour the controllers said that they often will declare on behalf of a pilot especially in a 7600 scenario which you were for a while because they do not know what other emergency you may be dealing with or may arise unless they are talking with you, so that is not outta the ordinary.

Being confident the fan was still running I probably would have done the same thing as you...but I also carry a handheld with a headset adapter within reach.

I once had a very concerning reading in my cockpit and was faced with the same choice...land ASAP and be stranded or continue on. Since I had a lot of outs enroute, I carried on as the story of what my gauges were telling me was not adding up. I did ask to remain high till the last second and turns out my trouble shooting and analysis was indeed correct...it was as sensor problem, not a mechanical one...I do not fault you one bit for heading back if you were confident you would make it safely.
 
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Might not have been a FULL BLOWN emergency, but it makes for some pretty good talk back at the base huh?

No, just a huge pain. The funny thing is that I just got the plane back from its annual in Santa Paula in SoCal the previous day. My mechanic, a recognized Bellanca specialist is all the way down in SoCal, so now I have to find someone local to help me deal with this issue.


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I think you handled the situation just fine. I wouldn't have declared either, given those same events. It would have been a different story if NORCAL couldn't have cleared you as requested.

Nice job taking action Jim!
 
I've had an electrical issue similar to yours in CAVOK. I didn't declare and feel you didn't need to either.

All in all, I think you handled it well.
 
Sounds like the situation was well under control.

A few times I had a situation that needed special attention but no need to call it an emergency. I did not declare an emergency but I did ask for the trucks. It makes them feel needed...... And I do feel better when I see the trucks.
 
I had a charging system failure while on flight following. Told ATC what I was doing and left transponder and com on. All other loads were off. ATC asked if assistance was needed but didn't declare for me. I did have a fairly new battery so knew that the transponder load wasn't a problem.
 
so now I have to find someone local to help me deal with this issue.

Not the cheapest but I have used LAC Avionics right there at SJC a few times and though their service was amazing. Electrical problem should be right up their alley. I was surprised that hey had a ton of small GA planes that they were working on in additon to the biz jets in their hangar.
 
Sounds like the situation was well under control.

A few times I had a situation that needed special attention but no need to call it an emergency. I did not declare an emergency but I did ask for the trucks. It makes them feel needed...... And I do feel better when I see the trucks.

This is actually the second time San Jose has rolled trucks for me. After some avionics work a couple of years ago, the bus bar was reinstalled in such a way that the landing gear curcuit breaker was making intermitent contact ( we found that out later). On the way back from refueling in Palo Alto, KSJC cleared me to land with a short approach. When I selected gear down, nothing happened. Told tower about it and requested a few minutes to lower the gear using the emergency procedure. Tower started the how many souls, state fuel state stuff, and kept asking me if I wanted a low pass for them to confirm the gear state. It really wasn't a big deal, the gear came down fine, and there was no issue, but they rolled the trucks anyway. I thought it was a waste, but I do regret not giving them their low pass, since they asked several times. I think they enjoyed the excitement.

San Jose is really a great airport. The tower and ground control and CD staff are great.


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Glad you are ok, Jim - let us know what misdirected all those electrons.

Will do. Funny thing is that something similar happened last year. It turned out to be a rotating short in the alternator. When the alternator rotates above a certain RPM, the field coil expands just enough to rub up against the case and short the field to ground. They replaced the alternator last year; it would be a sad coincidence if that is the same problem. At least the alternator is still under warranty.


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Not the cheapest but I have used LAC Avionics right there at SJC a few times and though their service was amazing. Electrical problem should be right up their alley. I was surprised that hey had a ton of small GA planes that they were working on in additon to the biz jets in their hangar.

I have used LAC a few times, and I agree they do a good job with avionics. I didn't think of them for a straight electrical issue, but it's a good idea. I'll give them a call tomorrow.


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I'm not as experienced as many here, but I probably would have. You had a situation that required prompt, if not immediate, assistance and deviation from the regs. That meets the definition of an emergency.
 
Would you have declared an emergency in the same situation? If so, why? Would you have done anything differently? Landed at the nearest airport instead of flying 30 min back to San Jose, perhaps?
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No, if had been in actual IFR conditions, yes. I've had an alternator failure myself. This is not to discourage you from declaring, just saying what I would not have done, and did not do.
 
I'm not as experienced as many here, but I probably would have. You had a situation that required prompt, if not immediate, assistance and deviation from the regs. That meets the definition of an emergency.

Appreciate the opinon. Not sure I needed prompt or immediate assistance, though. I'd canceled IFR, and I was about 30 minutes from the mode C veil and Class C of San Jose. I had plenty of time to negotiate the transponder and NORDO issues in brief periods of radio on time. Not sure what I would have done if NORCAL told me I couldn't enter the veil without a transponder, but since they didn't have an issue with it, and since i didn't enter Class C until San Jose had been talked to, I didn't feel any sense of urgency. San Jose did ask if I prefered 30L instead of 30R, but since they had an airliner coming in on 30L at the same time, 30R worked fine.

I don't even think I technically had to deviate from any regs.

91.215 covers transponder use. Paragraph b starts with: b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC,...

I was authorized by ATC to enter the mode C veil without a transponder.

91.130 covers radio operations in Class C airspace.

I did establish two way radio communications prior to entry, with the caveat of negotiating when the communications would be available. They authorized that as well. After they cleared me to land, I told the I would be out of contact until on the ground. They had no issue with that.


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No, if had been in actual IFR conditions, yes. I've had an alternator failure myself. This is not to discourage you from declaring, just saying what I would not have done, and did not do.

Thanks. Absolutely if I'd been in IMC i would have declared. Radios, Nav, turn coordinator, HSI are all electrical powered, I would have declared and landed at Travis AFB. Hockey tryouts be darned in that case.

Edit: Actually, O41 or KDWA would have been closer to my turn around point now that I review the flight aware track. If in IMC, I would have gone to one of those.

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I had a charging system failure while on flight following. Told ATC what I was doing and left transponder and com on. All other loads were off. ATC asked if assistance was needed but didn't declare for me. I did have a fairly new battery so knew that the transponder load wasn't a problem.

Yeah, I thought about leaving just the transponder and one radio on, but the turn coordinator and HSI are also electrically powered without pullable breakers. I should spend some time sometime calculating the load and time available if I turn everything off that I can except just the transponder and 1 radio.

The flaps are electric, and I didn't really need them on San Jose's 10,000 ft runways, so I didn't have to save the juice for that, and I had an alternate way to lower the gear. Probably would have been fine to leave just the two pieces of equipment on, particularly once entering the mode C veil, but I wanted to make sure I had the battery juice just in case.

That low battery warning and high discharge rate on the ammeter had me cautious, though.


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electric failure in day VMC, meh.
 
I think I would have done exactly as you had done.

Is your voltage regulator the old style mechanical one or a newer style solid state one? (hint: parts that move tend to fail more often than parts that don't)
 
I think I would have done exactly as you had done.

Is your voltage regulator the old style mechanical one or a newer style solid state one? (hint: parts that move tend to fail more often than parts that don't)

It's solid state and also only a year old. Something clearly was wrong with the breaker; it shouldn't have smoked. Possibly the rotating short issue is also back in the new alternator? It's a puzzle.


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As one of the guys that would be in the "truck", we are more than happy to take precautions if we hear of an aircraft having any type of difficulty. It is no problem, doesn't cost anything, and doesn't create trouble for any pilot that asks for the equipment. Better safe than sorry, and I'd rather roll on a hundred Alerts for nothing, than not roll the one time it becomes something.
 
It's solid state and also only a year old. Something clearly was wrong with the breaker; it shouldn't have smoked. Possibly the rotating short issue is also back in the new alternator? It's a puzzle.

There's more than one way the alternator could have failed in that mode besides a rotating short.
 
I most likely would have,even if at the time it seemed unnecessary. In my experience it's never one thing that causes an accident in aviation, it's a series of things. This could have the first step in that series and it was definitely a good thing for them to do, to declare for you, even if it was unnecessary in the end. Now I'm most likely not as experienced as you, and I've never been in an accident(unless you count an emergency landing due to engine failure that is) so I'm by no means trying to be preachy to you, but I think I would have declared emergency just in case somthing else went wrong and the situation got worse.
 
Appreciate the opinon. Not sure I needed prompt or immediate assistance, though. I'd canceled IFR, and I was about 30 minutes from the mode C veil and Class C of San Jose. I had plenty of time to negotiate the transponder and NORDO issues in brief periods of radio on time. Not sure what I would have done if NORCAL told me I couldn't enter the veil without a transponder, but since they didn't have an issue with it, and since i didn't enter Class C until San Jose had been talked to, I didn't feel any sense of urgency. San Jose did ask if I prefered 30L instead of 30R, but since they had an airliner coming in on 30L at the same time, 30R worked fine.

I don't even think I technically had to deviate from any regs.

91.215 covers transponder use. Paragraph b starts with: b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC,...

I was authorized by ATC to enter the mode C veil without a transponder.

91.130 covers radio operations in Class C airspace.

I did establish two way radio communications prior to entry, with the caveat of negotiating when the communications would be available. They authorized that as well. After they cleared me to land, I told the I would be out of contact until on the ground. They had no issue with that.


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I concur on all points. It's likely just SOP to roll the equipment anytime an aircraft reports a systematic anormality. The ARFF crew is there anyway, pretty much not doing anything else, so it's at least training for them and costs next to nothing to dispatch.
 
I had plenty of time to negotiate the transponder and NORDO issues in brief periods of radio on time. Not sure what I would have done if NORCAL told me I couldn't enter the veil without a transponder, but since they didn't have an issue with it, and since i didn't enter Class C until San Jose had been talked to, I didn't feel any sense of urgency. San Jose did ask if I prefered 30L instead of 30R, but since they had an airliner coming in on 30L at the same time, 30R worked fine.
It's been covered here many times that an emergency exists when an emergency exists, whether you declare or not. It occurs to me that the reason you got these accommodations in the first place may be because NORCAL considered it an emergency, even if you didn't.
 
I had a similar issue once, lost the alternator at night. Didn't declare, but deviated to a nearby airport, and center stayed with me until I was approaching the pattern at the deviation airport. On short final, total power loss, dark airplane. No issues. You did fine!
 
It's been covered here many times that an emergency exists when an emergency exists, whether you declare or not. It occurs to me that the reason you got these accommodations in the first place may be because NORCAL considered it an emergency, even if you didn't.
Probably. But controllers vary in their understanding of aircraft and piloting. Including what is and is not an emergency. And sometimes in their procedures. I've been asked, "will you need assistance?" And asked nothing except, "say intentions." There are plenty of stories out there of vacuum failures in IMC not being understood by ATC as something serious, with deadly results to pilots who did not declare and say exactly what was needed.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. An emergency exists when an emergency exists. I'd add, what is an an emergency, and what is needed to deal with it, are in the eye of the beholder. As PIC, I want the primary "beholder" to be me.
 
I would have declared and landed. Accidents aren't single events, they are a chain of events.

Thankfully it didn't happen, but you're on questionable electrical supply in a low wing airplane. What happens if your engine driven fuel pump picks this 30 min time frame to quit? You be landing. Somewhere. Soon.

Glad it worked out!
 
I quit reading at "puff of smoke." Declare
Agreed. Furthermore, returning to San Jose was foolish. A precautionary landing at Concord was called for. In-flight fires suck.

Not only would I declare with a possible indication of something serious, i did just that.

Fluctuating oil pressure that was "most likely" an indication problem. Declared and made a precautionary landing at Reid.

This is what "pan pan" is for.
 
Now I declare. I have twice had electrical failures in alternators. First time, I canceled IR, saying I had alternator issues and I was going to land. ATC asked which airport I was landing in, when I landed the FBO said they got a call and had a number for me to call ATC to make sure I got down ok. About a week later I got a call from the FAA, the only point he berated me was not declaring an emergency. He said it makes everything smoother, allows them to bring additional resources to bear to help, if I had crashed short, allows faster role out of equipment... The second time I lost both alternators, I listened to the FAA, and I declared. Makes it easier on everyone from a regulatory perspective, allows them to have a single frequency "cleared" which crosses boundaries, allows for faster rolling of emergency vehicles if something happens.... The point is you do not know if this is just an alternator failure due to a wire, or a short in the field, or the alternator failing due to heat because you have a potential fire in the engine compartment due to an exhaust crack.
The fundamental point is, you do not know.

Tim
 
This past Saturday I was flying the family from San Jose with a planned destination of Wenatchee, WA. We stopped first in Livermore to refuel (No way I'm paying San Jose fuel prices) and then headed off Northbound. Added to the circumstances was that my 18 year old son needed to be in Wenatchee by Sunday morning for a hockey tryout with the Wenatchee Wild.

Just past Travis AFB, my overvoltage relay tripped taking the alternator offline. Per the POH, I cycled the master in an attempt to reset the relay. Initially that appeared to work, but a few minutes later it happened again, and cycling the master did not fix the problem. The POH suggests trying to cycle the alternator breaker (Either main or field) if cycling the master didn't work, but when I pulled the main breaker a fairly significant puff of smoke came out of the breaker. Needless to say, I left it pulled. No additional smoke or evidence of electrical fire was present with the master either on or off.

So at this point, all of my electrical equipment- radios, transponder, lights, GPS, etc. - was running on battery, and the battery was fairly rapidly depleting. The low voltage warning was on immediately. I let NORCAL know what was going on and cancelled IFR so I wouldn't have to be talking to them. Turned off the master to save battery and then spent a few minutes reviewing options. If I landed in the vicinity, there would be no way to get my son to Wenatchee, and the plane would probably be stuck in an inconvenient location far from home. No more smoke or other indications of any electrical fire, and the plane was flying fine, so I made the decision to go back to San Jose and catch an Alaska Airlines flight out that evening to Wenatchee.

I turned on the master again to let NORCAL know the plan. San Jose is within the San Francisco Class B mode C veil, and I was a bit concerned about that. I let NORCAL know that I wanted to go back to SJC without a transponder, and they cleared me for that. They asked if I wanted to declare an emergency, but I didn't see the need at that time. I informed them that I was going back to SJC and that I would be without radios or transponder until reaching the Embassy Suites, VPEMB, landmark just at the edge of the KSJC Class C at which point I would turn the radios back on to talk to SJC. They cleared me for that plan, and I turned the master back off to save battery juice.

Weather was CAVU, and navigating was easy with Mt. Diablo as a clear landmark in the distance.

Just before reaching VPEMB, I used the emergency gear extension procedure to drop the gear because that procedure doesn't require electrical power like the normal procedure does. Turned on the master to confirm 3 green lights and called up San Jose to let them know the situation. They cleared me to land on 30R, I lowered the flaps to half (electrical drain) and switched off.

As we were on final, my wife pointed out that San Jose had rolled the fire trucks which were waiting next to the runway with their flashers on. Clearly, San Jose had declared an emergency for me. No problems with the landing, and I powered up the radios once clear of the runway for taxi instructions. Got the "How many souls on board?" question then.

I was even followed to my hangar by an airport ops guy who congrstulated me on a nice landing and wanted to get a few more details of what happened. That was it. He confirmed that the tower had declared on my behalf.

So, that's the situation. We were never in any danger, the plane was flying fine, and the only real issue was coming into the mode C veil without a transponder and landing at a Class C without communications. I didn't see the need to declare since NORCAL and San Jose were aware of the situation and cleared me for it. What I'm interested in is the opinion of others here. Would you have declared an emergency in the same situation? If so, why? Would you have done anything differently? Landed at the nearest airport instead of flying 30 min back to San Jose, perhaps?


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§91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.

(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.

They FAA interpretation does not include flying back to your home airport to get an Alaska airlines flight.
 
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Not judging your actions. I might have done the same, though my electrical system is better designed to handle this scenario.

To answer your specific question though - no, I don't think you should declare an emergency in cavu conditions and then choose to fly back thru congested airspace while flying past any number of other airport options along the way.
 
Because you asked; I would declare an emergency at the first smoke and land as soon as practical.

I would not be comfortable flying through busy airspace without an operating transponder.

I would not be comfortable flying through busy airspace without an operating radio.

I have declared an emergency due to engine stoppage and there was no paperwork and a very short conversation with the FAA (FSDO) and the NTSB.

A member of the fire station on the airport said they need the practice and are pleased when they are not needed.
 
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