Working on avionics as A&P

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Blueangel, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    So I want to also learn avionics rating as part of my A&P and having difficult time identifying what additional exams and so forth to get to be able to install, maintain, and repair avionics and flight instruments besides the A&P rating. If I want to remove old crap and put in a new Garmin set of avionics on say a Bonanza, what do I need to get besides the A&P?
     
  2. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    none, the only thing extra is an IA is required to sign off the 337 that are required for some installs.

    bob
     
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  3. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Nothing, the A&P certificate will cover all of that.

    here's the catch. If you make a mistake and the blue smoke gets out, are you able to make it right with the customer? some of these installs are $15-20K, you burn, it you bought it. are you ready for that?
     
  4. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No different than trashing an engine. :confused:
     
  5. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :popcorn: Here we go!
     
  6. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm ready..... weeeeeeeeee! :rollercoaster:
     
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  7. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    How to be a successful A&P:

    Don't be a dick.
    Don't rip people off.

    Not hard.
     
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  8. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    On the serious side, one might want to read the regs.

    §65.81 General privileges and limitations.
    (a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

    Also read 91.411 & 91.413 and you will see that the altimeter and transponder checks are done by repair stations. You cannot do them under your A&P.
     
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  9. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Certainly, you are always liable.
     
  10. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Now...why would I be liable? :D
     
  11. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Well for me, I am doing the training so that I can work on my own airplanes without getting ripped off. I already have a major San Diego aircraft shop willing to help me get started once I have my ratings. I heard you also need FCC first class telegraph operator license to do avionics work is that true?
     
  12. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    I am sure they will teach him not to reverse polarity at A&P school.
     
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  13. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Well Miramar college is the only college in San Diego that offers a legit program so I have confidence in learning.
     
  14. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ....and...and....soldering.:eek:
     
  15. Pat Elliott

    Pat Elliott Pre-Flight

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    N
    Not true, you don't need the FCC to work on anything except Broadcast equipment anymore. and even then you can work "under supervision" of a chief engineer who's probably across the country..
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
  16. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    Oh damn....soldering... never mind the Op is going to fry all of the electronics. :D
     
  17. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I guess that will prevent cross wiring.
     
  18. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    About once a year I get a call form some one that says that when they turn n their Av-maser switch a C/B pops. Invariably they have just re-wired some thing installed a new piece of equipment. When they tell me that, I tell them to call some one else, Because I don't want the blame for the burned up equipment.
     
  19. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    @Tom-D probably has this sign in his shop:
    upload_2016-12-15_11-0-5.png
     
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  20. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    you can double that if you laugh.
     
  21. bradg33

    bradg33 Pattern Altitude

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    I'm not an A&P, but I've played with avionics wiring and aircraft electrical under supervision. It's really not hard work, it's just very tedious and requires extreme attention to detail. You've also got to be adept at understanding basic electrical concepts and be able to read a wiring diagram.
     
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  22. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Great I look forward to learning avionics as part of my A&P training. I can save $$$$$ doing it myself once I have completed the training and rating. Will probably sub part time to gain real world experience in an avionics shop once I am done so that I can learn how to do things right. Figure if I buy a 10k new Garmin unit, really do not want to fry it due to a stupid mistake. I don't mind sweat equity figure it save me 5-10k in labor doing it myself.
     
  23. weirdjim

    weirdjim Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I taught avionics at Miramar back in the early '70s, and I'd suggest that if Miramar has a Mechatronics program that you take a couple of those classes. They aren't specific to avionics but they give you a sound fundamentals platform that you can then tailor to your needs. You can also take a couple of the Electronics classes at SD City College for the same purpose.

    Or you can move up to Rocklin/Grass Valley and take my Mechatronics classes at Sierra College :smilewinkgrin: I'll even throw in a little avionics for your amusement.

    You never did need an FCC RadioTELEGRAPH license. It was the RadioTELEPHONE license, which no longer really exists for anything but commercial broadcast stations, and even then is more honored in the breach than the observance.

    Jim
     
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  24. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    Thanks Jim,

    I believe that there are a few core electronics courses required as part of the Miramar A&P program that I have to take so that will help as well. Now just need to get basic tools! Fortunately Harbor Freight has some good holiday sales right now.
     
  25. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    Hopefully....I hope they teach him to read manuals and wiring diagrams too!
    There are people out there that shouldn't own a test light much less do electrical wiring.
     
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  26. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    I don't want to take the excitement out of buying tools, but the things you are going to buy to do Avionics work shouldn't come from Harbor freight.

    All of my electrical hand tools are snap on. You will appreciate the better designs and quality when you have to do a big wiring job.
     
  27. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Half the guys here can't read a post and get the jest of it, and you believe they can read a wire diagram

    Fixed for those who can't get the jest of it. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
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  28. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    ouch...:D
     
  29. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I gots no idea what a wire skit is....:eek:

    Maybe Tom could enlighten us? ;)
     
  30. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    maybe a wiring Skitmatic?
     
  31. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Like a performance of some kind?:eek:
     
  32. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think I found what it is...

     
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  33. weirdjim

    weirdjim Ejection Handle Pulled

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    And if the schematic is really funny we can get the "jest" of it, or if serious, perhaps we can get the gist of it.

    Jim
     
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  34. Blueangel

    Blueangel Line Up and Wait

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    No for A&P classes, I use less expensive tools like Craftsman. Snapon can be useful later on for avionics work but super $$$$
    I doubt that I will be doing anything avionics in first few A&P classes. There are 4 courses at Miramar that I have to take on electronics and electrical systems for aircraft. I can buy a specialized expensive Snapon tool for that when the time comes and if the student discount price is worthwhile.
     
  35. weirdjim

    weirdjim Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Don't. Buy the cheapest tool you can find to do the job. When it breaks, THEN buy the really expensive one. That's the tool you use the most, and the easy way to find out what you REALLY need versus what is not so necessary.

    I've been doing avionics since I was 16 (1959) and so far the only really expensive tool I've bought (other than test equipment) was a REALLY good soldering station for $150 or so. The first tool I bought when I started fixing TVs in '59 was an Excelite quarter inch nutdriver and it still in my toolbox, nearly as good as the day I bought it. Must have driven ten thousand quarter inch nuts and it is still perking along ... being a relatively inexpensive tool.

    Don't chintz on test equipment. I started out with Heathkit stuff (*) and found that it just wasn't cutting it. The eventual upgrades would have bought a pretty nice house. (*) The one exception is a solid state volt-ohm-amp meter that is still my lab standard amidst a whole potfull of chicom crap and some unbelievable "name" brand crap.

    Jim
     
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  36. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    There is a huge difference between installs and bench work.

    What avionics do you want to install? A great deal of install data is shrouded in secrecy and difficult to acquire from "the dealer network" unless you have an experimental amature built airplane in which case you don't need an A&P to begin with.

    Transponders require recurring tests only a Certified Repair Station can perform.

    If you want to learn a great deal for free, google "GTN-650 install manual" and study it, specifically the tooling sections, wire prep, connector assembly and interface drawings.

    Repairing aircraft radios and instruments continues to get more and more specialized so much so that there really isn't any point to studying and investing equipment to do it unless you intend to open a business. Even then industry trend is is "pull the busted radio and send to manufacturer".

    Avionics installs uses many disciplines, sheet metal, composites, wiring, analysis etc. Where I work there may be 800 man hours of sheet metal work in a panel makeover.

    Bench is a much narrower, highly specialized discipline that has very little to do with installs.

    Food for thought, several manufacturers won't honor warranty unless the radio was installed in a certified airplane by a dealer. In homebuilts, the basic harness is typically supplied by the dealer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
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  37. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You mean like a diagram?:eek: :D
     
  38. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    What in the world kind of panel was that?
     
  39. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Falcon 900, wiring is some where around 2000 man hours.

    Going from production built to latest and greatest aftermarket glass.
     
  40. midcap

    midcap Cleared for Takeoff

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    that sounds like some serious electrical work there.