Why the IFR is soooo important -
- Thread starter comanchepilot
- Start date
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well, after the accident on a Tv news report the former owner reported that he volunteered to go on a flight to show him how the auto pilot worked, and the former owner reported that JFK jr told him that his instructor did not want him to use the AP until after he got the instrument rating. So you can take that answer however you want to.
kyleb
Final Approach
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Drake the Outlaw
We get that here in Georgia Too. Very useful tool. As is flying high enough to surf around isolated cells in the Summer.
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
One of my professors used to fly from College Station in his 1950 something 180 to west TX to meet the students for a geology field trip each year (students would drive). We camped on two different airfields (one was or looked abandoned). It was near Marfa (I remember some ghost or UFO story about the Marfa lights). Anyway, one year in the mid 1990s he never showed up to meet the students. Moonless night, spatial disorientation said the accident investigators.
Heh. The lights of Marfa, man-made and otherwise, were behind me! Ahead, only darkness.
How about the light of Zartha.
comanchepilot
En-Route
If JFK Jr pressed HDG and then ALT HOLD he'd be alive today . . . .
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well....chute.
James331
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James331
Or had basic unusual attitude training, or cared to stay proficient in flying.
Just because you have the money and legal mins, doesn't mean you have any business in the sky, physics doesn't care about who your family is, or how much you have in the bank.
midcap
Pattern Altitude
it might be because I am new at airplaning but I constantly check my AI in reference to what I am actually seeing.
azure
Final Approach
If he was halfway through his IR training, as was reported, then he certainly had that. As others have said, he likely didn't realize he needed to be on the gauges until he had already lost control, and then panic set in.
Totally agree with your last sentence though.
James331
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James331
Half way to the end of his IFR doesn't match up with the facts though?
azure
Final Approach
Which facts? That he lost control in instrument conditions? Happens to instrument rated pilots too. It's not enough to know how to fly instruments, you have to know when, too. And that part isn't always taught well, if at all.
James331
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James331
That's a super rookie mistake for someone with a good chunk of instrument training.
jcmsp
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Jetsmeller
This is my plan also, but is there a disadvantage to having a two or three month gap between written and check ride?
Twin_Flyer
Cleared for Takeoff
I took and passed then written before I started flight training. That started to clock so I had to get it done in the allotted time. It also allowed me to concentrate on the flying. I didn't have to find the time to study and fly. To answer your question I didn't find it a disadvantage having the gap. The post flight debriefs help to keep the information fresh.
Good luck and keep up posted when you start...
jcmsp
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Jetsmeller
I will do that. Right now trying to decide on which training aid to use. I've used Gliem (sp?) in the past and found it pretty good, just curious if there is a better approach.
paflyer
Final Approach
Cheap shot.
By all reports, he was a careful pilot and decent stick for his experience level. He had IR training, just hadn't done the checkride.
paflyer
Final Approach
That's if you believe the narrative.
The problem with spatial disorientation leading to unusual attitude is, it takes time to develop, to recognize and to react. If the whole sequence starts at under 1000' AGL, odds are, you're hosed.
comanchepilot
En-Route
then you also need to check your VSI and DG/HSI because single point of reference to anything is dangerous - even looking outside . . .
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midcap
Pattern Altitude
I check those also, along with my Altitude. I should have been more specific as to that I verify what I am seeing with the gauges.
falconkidding
Line Up and Wait
Gliem seemed a bit out of date for the new ifr acs. I recognized maybe 30% of the questions on my IR written. Vs the private years ago when it was 100% same questions as gliem.
jcmsp
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Jetsmeller
Good tip. Have you heard of a better one? King maybe? or Sportys?
ircphoenix
En-Route
danhagan
En-Route
Yes, it's that dark. Try El Paso eastbound on a moonless night - you should experience auto-kinesis in short order (few traffic lights below and the stars in front).
I guess "all reports" above forgot to mention he had 300+ hours, nearly ALL with an instructor on board.
By all reports except for the NTSB report on his final flight.
paflyer
Final Approach
"Pilot's action/inaction to do/not do X" is the catch-all when they can't prove anything else as a cause. Sort of like "disorderly conduct" when the Man wants to take you in and has no other legal rationale.
Let's not forget he showed up wearing a walking boot and on crutches for a late Friday afternoon/early evening departure to Martha's Vineyard after a full week and a deadline for arrival for a wedding. Also, there is this statement from his CFI about Jr.'s decision to make the flight from the NTSB factual report: "He also stated that he would not have felt comfortable with the accident pilot conducting night flight operations on a route similar to the one flown on, and in weather conditions similar to those that existed on, the night of the accident."
And there is also this other report from his CFI: "The CFI stated that the pilot had the ability to fly the airplane without a visible horizon but may have had difficulty performing additional tasks under such conditions. He also stated that the pilot was not ready for an instrument evaluation as of July 1, 1999, and needed additional training."
paflyer
Final Approach
CYA
Maybe. But then it's not by "all accounts." (edit: or "reports.")
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The fact of the matter is he wasn't ready to be PIC for an IFR flight, and while this was technically VFR, the lack of horizon made IFR skills necessary for a safe completion of the flight. That the weather conditions would be so was neither unusual nor unpredictable. Jr. had flown with a CFI in this area at night, and therefore had seen similar weather conditions and could be expected to anticipate those conditions. Yet Jr. chose to launch under less than ideal circumstances with passengers. There is certainly room to be critical of his pilot decision making. That doesn't make him a bad person.
3393RP
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3393RP
Yeah, here in NM we start complaining when the visibility drops down to 30 miles.....
I haven't been to Albuquerque very many times since I moved to Texas in 1980, but back then it was easy to see Mt Taylor from my backyard in the NE Heights. It was around 75 miles west.
Standing on the Sandia Peak tramway platform on a clear day, it was possible to see the ski area trails at Cloudcroft, almost 200 miles south.
When the plutonium test article was fired at the Trinity site in July 1945, scientists and their wives standing on Sandia Crest just east of Albuquerque (elevation 10,400' and 180 miles from the test site) clearly saw the brilliant flash.
Even today I enjoy seeing the summer thunderstorms formed almost every afternoon over the Jemez Caldera, about 80 miles from my dad's house in Rio Rancho.
New Mexico has beautiful blue skies.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
The question pool used to be published long ago. It no longer is. No study system will be "perfect" to the questions asked.
Some test prep companies request that folks attempt to memorize any questions that look new and call them to get them into their pool.
It's up to you whether you think that breaks the rules shown at the start of the test(s), your morals and ethics, but those test prep folks who do that, are closer than those that don't.
Because someone always will do it for a free prep course. (The usual offer made by those companies.)
falconkidding
Line Up and Wait
Sadly I don't have any recommendations, I 'm using dauntless for my Comm and CFI writtens and they are always advertising they are up to date with the ACS stuff but i'm not sure if thats true or not since the Commerical and CFI written exams haven't been updated to my knowledge.
James331
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hawk25u
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Jim
The night JFK jr went in I was flying from JFK to BOS about the time he crashed and for all practical purposes we were IFR the whole flight because of the haze. I was flying a twin turboprop then our altitude would be 10,000.
Chip Sylverne
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
Back when it happened someone published the radar tracks. They were so straight and altitude so accurate that it was like he was on a/p until he approached the island, then it started to go all wonky. It looked to me that he was on a/p, and lost it hand flying looking for the airport lights at the end of the flight. No evidence of trying to shoot an approach, as I recall. Maybe he wasn't trained in flying a coupled approach. If he was hand flying the whole trip, he was pretty darn good at holding heading and altitude mvfr up the coast and across the sound.
Purely conjecture, of course.
Purely conjecture, of course.
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Skip Miller
Final Approach
I was flying that day, too. VFR from Easton MD to Bridgeport CT. Definitely IMC but legal VFR at 7,500 feet. I had about 120 hours at that point. Wow, never again I said! And I meant it. -Skip
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
I believe in getting the IR because the pilot will truly understand much more about the system, regardless if they ever use it.
It truly makes for a much more well rounded pilot. Not even close actually.
It truly makes for a much more well rounded pilot. Not even close actually.