WHY IS TRANSPONDER PLACARDED NOT FOR USE IN CERTIAN AIRSPACE??

MtnMarcus

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Last weekend I flew a 182 that had a placard on the transponder that said "not for use in class A, B, or C airspace"? I climbed to 10,000 feet and contacted a local radar facility and requested a transponder check, and my location and altitude was verified. Anyone have any idea why the placard would be there?? Thanks
 
Last weekend I flew a 182 that had a placard on the transponder that said "not for use in class A, B, or C airspace"? I climbed to 10,000 feet and contacted a local radar facility and requested a transponder check, and my location and altitude was verified. Anyone have any idea why the placard would be there?? Thanks

What model transponder?
 
How official did the "placard" look?
When was the last transponder check done?
 
Unless it was a military or dual-use radar that got a primary return with altitude.

:confused: What radar gives the target altitude? That almost seems that it would require two units integrated, one horizontal scan and one vertical. That would be a neat rig.
 
Well, at least PAR and ASR installations.

Right?

I don't know, I guess so, I never asked when I shot one, don't know if they were reading my altitude or measuring it.:dunno: I think I figured out how to do it in one scanner, but it still needs 2 wave guides.
 
I don't know, I guess so, I never asked when I shot one, don't know if they were reading my altitude or measuring it.:dunno: I think I figured out how to do it in one scanner, but it still needs 2 wave guides.

Being unsure, I Googled it before I posted:

"The only airborne radio equipment required for radar approaches is a functioning radio transmitter and receiver."
 
Being unsure, I Googled it before I posted:

"The only airborne radio equipment required for radar approaches is a functioning radio transmitter and receiver."
I'm not an expert hear, but while a PAR and ab SAR are both radar approaches, it is my understanding they are very different. A PAR is a precision approach, and my guess is the lag of a radar mode C return would not qualify.
 
:confused: What radar gives the target altitude? That almost seems that it would require two units integrated, one horizontal scan and one vertical. That would be a neat rig.

See the post you quoted. Unless you think the military installs surveillance radars that require potential hostile aircraft to be squawking Mode C?
 
See the post you quoted. Unless you think the military installs surveillance radars that require potential hostile aircraft to be squawking Mode C?


Whoa!

I understand its war, dropping white phosphorus, straining parachutes, alls fair in love & war.....BUT having your transponder off, that's just barbaric! Next thing you'll be trying to tell me hostiles also say "any traffic please advise" :goofy:


The animals!
 
Because they haven't been doing the 91.413 transponder inspections.



§ 91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections.
(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or § 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and
(b) Following any installation or maintenance on an ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter.




Here is the airspace reference

91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use. (a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).
(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C-112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies—
(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;
(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and
(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and
(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider—
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.



I've never heard of placarding the transponder like that tho. The IA guide from the FAA says to just advise the owner they are due for 91.413 inspections.
 
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See the post you quoted. Unless you think the military installs surveillance radars that require potential hostile aircraft to be squawking Mode C?

No, I think targeting radar systems are different from traffic observation radar systems, the antenna drives are completely different. I wasn't thinking they were going to spend that kind of money on a radar system that has no enemy defense duties.
 
I suspect that either the transponder inspection is out of date, or there have been intermittent problems with the transponder that haven't been fixed yet.
 
Because they haven't been doing the 91.413 transponder inspections.

Maybe they had the inspection done and it failed, and the owner doesn't want to fork out for a new transponder?
 
Being unsure, I Googled it before I posted:

"The only airborne radio equipment required for radar approaches is a functioning radio transmitter and receiver."
Theoretically, yes, but in practice, it may not be possible to get them to work with you initially without a transponder.
 
I suspect that either the transponder inspection is out of date, or there have been intermittent problems with the transponder that haven't been fixed yet.

Making it unfit for use in Class A, B, and C airspace but usable in other airspace?
 
Because they haven't been doing the 91.413 transponder inspections.



§ 91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections.
(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or § 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and
(b) Following any installation or maintenance on an ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter.




Here is the airspace reference

91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use. (a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).
(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C-112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies—
(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;
(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and
(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and
(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider—
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and
(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.



I've never heard of placarding the transponder like that tho. The IA guide from the FAA says to just advise the owner they are due for 91.413 inspections.
Doesn't matter what class of airspace you're in -- per 91.413, it's not legal to operate a transponder that doesn't have a current 91.413 certification check. The only thing 91.215 does is make it illegal to enter certain airspace (which includes some D/E airspace as well as A/B/C) without that transponder unless you receive special permission from ATC. There is nothing in the regs which would permit you to operate a particular transponder in Classes D-G airspace while not permitting operation of the same transponder in A-C airspace. My conclusion is that this placard is bogus, and what they were really trying to say was "This transponder is not current per 91.413, so don't turn it past STBY, and stay out of transponder-required airspace unless ATC says it's OK to enter without a tranponder."
 
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Lastly, it's not necessary to use ALL CAPS when starting new threads, as a few of your past new threads have been.
 
Wouldn't make sense to ask the person that owns the airplane? I assume you know who that is.
 
How official did the "placard" look?
When was the last transponder check done?

It was a sticky the mechanic put on it as it just came out of annual. Not sure when the last check was done and am int he process of verifying that.
 
But as Steve alludes, it makes no sense. The transponder is either inspected and operative and usable in all airspace or it's not operative and can't be used anywhere.

If there's something wrong with the altitude reporting, it's a bigger issue than just A/B/C airspace.
 
It is a Garmin GTX 327

It was a sticky the mechanic put on it as it just came out of annual. Not sure when the last check was done and am int he process of verifying that.

If it's a 327, then I'm not seeing it being anything other than an issue of it passing, or being, tested and signed off.
 
Lastly, it's not necessary to use ALL CAPS when starting new threads, as a few of your past new threads have been.

Moving forward, I'll try and remember that
 
I have an issue with maintenance personnel installing placards in the aircraft unless they are complying with a regulation, STC, or AD (see 91.9 and 91.213). If they wish to inform the owner of something, they should do so via normal communication with their customer. Even at an annual they are required to provide the owner with a written list of discrepancies. They are over reaching their authority when they RYO their own restrictions and place them as placards on the panel, however well intentioned.
 
Making it unfit for use in Class A, B, and C airspace but usable in other airspace?
You know more about this than I do so I'm not arguing with you, but do you need a transponder outside of A,B or C?
 
You know more about this than I do so I'm not arguing with you, but do you need a transponder outside of A,B or C?

above 10,000 feet a transponder is required...good luck getting an IFR clearance without a transponder (can be done but not a popular option)
 
You know more about this than I do so I'm not arguing with you, but do you need a transponder outside of A,B or C?

Yes, you do. First off, if you have a transponder, it's required to be ON whenever in controlled airspace.

You need it within 30 miles of the class B (the so-called mode C veil).

All airspace above a class B/C up to 10,000 feet

Over the lower 48 above 10,000. (when more than 2500 AGL)

The transponder could be placarded INOP.
It could be placarded NO MODE C (or such).

But this placard makes no sense at all.
 
It was a sticky the mechanic put on it as it just came out of annual. Not sure when the last check was done and am int he process of verifying that.

Sticky by a AP, 100% betcha it's past due on inspection, and the AP just didn't understand the regs, he should have just marked it inop as it's not sposed to be used periord when out of inspection.
 
You know more about this than I do so I'm not arguing with you, but do you need a transponder outside of A,B or C?

Yes, there are areas outside of Class A, B, and C airspace that require transponders. But there are no performance requirements placed on transponders that are limited to those classes of airspace.
 
Sticky by a AP, 100% betcha it's past due on inspection, and the AP just didn't understand the regs, he should have just marked it inop as it's not sposed to be used periord when out of inspection.

That isn't our job.

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_guides/media/faa-g-8082-19.pdf

13. Remind the owners or operators that they are responsible for operational requirements, such as:
a.
Very high frequency (VHF) omnidirectional range (VOR) equipment checked in accordance with 14 CFR part 91, § 91.171.
b.
Altimeter and altitude reporting equipment test and inspections in accordance with 14 CFR part 91, § 91.411.
c.
Air traffic control (ATC) transponder inspection in accordance with 14 CFR part 91, § 91.413.


These tests and inspections are not part of the annual inspection.

 
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You know more about this than I do so I'm not arguing with you, but do you need a transponder outside of A,B or C?

There are many things in the world that are not required, but if you have them they are required to be working. Radar on a boat is another example.
 
That isn't our job.

http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_guides/media/faa-g-8082-19.pdf

13. Remind the owners or operators that they are responsible for operational requirements, such as:
a.
Very high frequency (VHF) omnidirectional range (VOR) equipment checked in accordance with 14 CFR part 91, § 91.171.
b.
Altimeter and altitude reporting equipment test and inspections in accordance with 14 CFR part 91, § 91.411.
c.
Air traffic control (ATC) transponder inspection in accordance with 14 CFR part 91, § 91.413.


These tests and inspections are not part of the annual inspection.


Then why did you incorrectly placard it?

That screams I don't know the regs, and doesn't instill confidence in your customers.

It's not your responsibility, what a crappy way of running a shop:mad2:
It's called looking out for your customers, "hey bub, you know your transponder is expiring next month, want me to do the check for you"

See what I did there, just made my customer happy, made him feel I'm looking out for him, not just trying to take his money, WHILE I also made more money by providing (or contracting out) a needed service.
 
Yes, you do. First off, if you have a transponder, it's required to be ON whenever in controlled airspace.
...if it's currently 91.413-certified. If not, it must be left in STBY or OFF.
You need it within 30 miles of the class B (the so-called mode C veil).
Note that this is true in the underlying G-space as well as E-space. IOW, there is uncontrolled/G-space where a transponder is required.
Over the lower 48 above 10,000. (when more than 2500 AGL)
Again, this includes Class G airspace, not just controlled airspace.

See 91.215 for details.
 
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