Why is installation so expensive?

Dan Thomas said:
We installed a glass panel in a Supercub and had to build a bracket to mount the magnetometer to the aft wing spar. Mounting required a couple of holes drilled in the aluminum spar, which requires an engineering signoff. You simply do not go drilling holes in spars unless you'd like some big fines or jail time. The engineering doesn't come cheap, as aeronautical engineers tend to have PE status and are paid accordingly. You can't just use existing bolts, either, as that device has to be installed well away from anything ferrous.
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This sounds like a job duct tape was designed for!
 
I waited 4 hours to have tire and tubes changed once at a local shop. In that 4 hours I watched the same mechanic go between 3 planes off and on. In my head I’m thinking man, $125 an hour for each plane, billing 24 hours of labor for an 8 hour day.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I waited 4 hours to have tire and tubes changed once at a local shop. In that 4 hours I watched the same mechanic go between 3 planes off and on. In my head I’m thinking man, $125 an hour for each plane, billing 24 hours of labor for an 8 hour day.
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So what did they charge you?
 
Morgan3820 said:
I wonder if some of this stuff is worth it. All the money.
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Sure, for those who enjoy electronics I'm sure they feel it's worth it versus doing something else with that kind of money. A subjective valuation for sure.

Personally, I don't particularly enjoy the dynamics of this segment of the hobby. Specifically I'm put off by the the cost model and the captive audience antics from the monopolistic OEMs. Some of the differentials in price when being sold for EABs also do not sit well with me as a matter of principle. Partnerships also dilute the effective cost; sole owners see the real price tag, so that amplifies the cost issue for my demographic, which drives further away from participation (feedback loop). Nothing new under the sun, to each their own.

My only legitimate concern in this arena is the degree to which these avionics costs create or could create an undue burden entry floor to being able to fly to the permissive degree a private pilot certificate allowed for the day before, sans equipment barriers. I went through that recently with ADSB-Out. Not happy about that at all. I'll have to re-evaluate my continued footprint in the hobby if another avionics mandate were to be implemented in the next 10 years, vis a vis the operational limitation it would place on the airplane if not complied with. Spending all this money to be told NO constantly is getting under my skin big time, but that's a macro issue I take with the hobby that is not limited to avionics. I digress.
 
Has anyone done a DYI install of the G5 AI? It seems like it should be pretty simple...
G5-EFI.jpg
 
write-stuff said:
Has anyone done a DYI install of the G5 AI? It seems like it should be pretty simple...
G5-EFI.jpg
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Yes. Installation of a stand-alone G5 AI, with no connection to a navigator (external antenna) is very simply, probably a 10 man hour job. Connection to power, ground and external antenna, plus connection to pitot-static.
 
I bet I spent a day just making the doubler and filler plates to fill the hole vacated by the removed gyro shock mounted panel. Of course I had to etch, alodine and epoxy pain them too.
 

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....not cheap to maintain either but don’t want to be falling out of the sky thinking I had the money to fix that problem.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I wonder if some of this stuff is worth it. All the money.
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The question is whether you'll get $20K more enjoyment for the next $20K you spend on the new avionics. For some people yes, for others, no.

There are a couple more upgrades that would add value for me — new paint, a new interior, a modern audio panel, and a SIRS mag compass top the list — but replacing my steam gauges (which I like) with glass wouldn't make my plane fly any faster or better, and would take away a bit from my enjoyment, so no, not worth it (for me).

OTOH, I have no regrets about installing a simple autopilot in 2011, or an IFR GPS and ADS-B transponder in 2017—for me, they enhanced my flying experience enough to justify the money. But otherwise, I'd rather spend my next $20K on gas, recurrent training, nice hotels and meals for overnight trips, etc—it goes a long way there.
 
jd21476 said:
I was looking at putting some new avionics in my plane, well not new (Garmin 430w, GTX330, Garmin audio panel, and maybe two G5s) and after talking to some installers it looks like I could be looking at over $7k just for the install alone. Why?
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In order to support their dealers / installers, avionics makers are avoiding the "slide-in replacement" upgrades to existing avionics. For instance, Garmin could have made the 650/750 units, slide ins for the 430/530, but dealer/installers wouldn't like that. The installer nearest me wants $2900 to put in an intercom (not an audio panel, an f-ing intercom). That should be a lesson for everyone.
 
David Megginson said:
The question is whether you'll get $20K more enjoyment for the next $20K you spend on the new avionics. For some people yes, for others, no.

There are a couple more upgrades that would add value for me — new paint, a new interior, a modern audio panel, and a SIRS mag compass top the list — but replacing my steam gauges (which I like) with glass wouldn't make my plane fly any faster or better, and would take away a bit from my enjoyment, so no, not worth it (for me).

OTOH, I have no regrets about installing a simple autopilot in 2011, or an IFR GPS and ADS-B transponder in 2017—for me, they enhanced my flying experience enough to justify the money. But otherwise, I'd rather spend my next $20K on gas, recurrent training, nice hotels and meals for overnight trips, etc—it goes a long way there.
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Agreed. Don’t get me wrong, if I won the lottery I would go to a glass panel simply because it makes your instrument scan a little easier. Pretty much all the technology is in the autopilot and GPS and the screens are just that, $8,000.00 TV’s.
 
Grum.Man said:
Agreed. Don’t get me wrong, if I won the lottery I would go to a glass panel simply because it makes your instrument scan a little easier. Pretty much all the technology is in the autopilot and GPS and the screens are just that, $8,000.00 TV’s.
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If I won the lottery, I'd buy a very simple taildragger with minimal steam gauges for fun VFR flying, and a fast, comfortable plane with all the bells and whistles for cross-country trips. I suspect, though, that I'd enjoy the simple taildragger a lot more, and the fancy plane would spend most of its time in a hangar.
 
Homebuilding can take the sting out of some of it if one is willing and able to trade some sweat for $$. Experimental gear was much cheaper back in 2008 when I made my big purchase. But to add just 2 switches I’m faced with closing this up.
2fa85ebc434e2be63641c729e61e384f.jpg

It’s all fun


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SbestCFII said:
In order to support their dealers / installers, avionics makers are avoiding the "slide-in replacement" upgrades to existing avionics. For instance, Garmin could have made the 650/750 units, slide ins for the 430/530, but dealer/installers wouldn't like that. The installer nearest me wants $2900 to put in an intercom (not an audio panel, an f-ing intercom). That should be a lesson for everyone.
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I could be wrong, but I doubt that they forgo slide in in order to drive up install prices. Slide in replacements lower the cost to buy new units and keep people loyal to the brand so dealers can sell more products. Garmin gets none of the installation costs. Consequently, it does no good for Garmin to drive install costs up so installers (but not Garmin) can make more per individual sale when it drives down the ability to move new units. Better to lower the install costs so total unit sales go up. We saw Garmin start to get wise with 650xi/750xi units.
 
PPC1052 said:
I could be wrong, but I doubt that they forgo slide in in order to drive up install prices. Slide in replacements lower the cost to buy new units and keep people loyal to the brand so dealers can sell more products. Garmin gets none of the installation costs. Consequently, it does no good for Garmin to drive install costs up so installers (but not Garmin) can make more per individual sale when it drives down the ability to move new units. Better to lower the install costs so total unit sales go up. We saw Garmin start to get wise with 650xi/750xi units.
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Agreed. I think we need to apply Hanlon's Razor here before we go looking for any deep, evil conspiracy. It was probably just a matter of some excited engineers saying "look, here's our new and improved tray!" and the product manager not realising the sales implications of changing it.
 
"Why is installation so expensive?"

Avionics R Us invoice
Feb 14 2020
1. Skill at working in the confined, dark recesses behind the panel... $V000.00
2. Ability to not panic when your labels fall off a bunch of the jillion tiny wires.....$W000.00
3. Blue smoke avoidance technique...$X000.00
4. Handling daily phone calls from multiple owners all saying the same thing, "I gotta trip next week, can you get it done....?" .....$Y000.00
5. Ability to understand any part of those multi-page things they call "wiring diagrams" (but in fact are just nonsensical doodlings of a 3yo child who is really good with a ruler.) ..... $Z000.00
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I waited 4 hours to have tire and tubes changed once at a local shop. In that 4 hours I watched the same mechanic go between 3 planes off and on. In my head I’m thinking man, $125 an hour for each plane, billing 24 hours of labor for an 8 hour day.
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They bill for person time, not clock time. If a shop double- or triple-billed a mechanic's time during a shift, it would be criminal fraud.
 
write-stuff said:
I helped my A&P with a Lynx NGT-9000 install. Man, was it a bear. It has so many options it's dizzying. We ended up taking about 25 hours before it was operating properly. Granted, someone who had done it before could do it much faster, but it is still a time-consuming job.
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Check this pic. Now that’s a lot of work! It’s unreal how many add ons were done over the years. I wanted all that old and unnecessary wiring removed.
New Garmin rack going in. One piece metal panel, ELT interfaced to GPS, 4 place intercom jacks, new PTT yoke drilling. New insulation/sound proofing from from firewall to door frames, including underneath the glare shield. The old stuff was totally dilapidated. Of course they found the typical corrosion that had to be cleaned up. The plane has been outside forever so it’s to be expected. Went with new led nav/strobe/beacon, along with new wiring from the cockpit to the tips and tail. Much cheaper to get those extras done while everything is torn apart. Also makes for a cleaner installation rather than adding the stuff on later.

It’s a ton of labor alright. Really adds up if you want a quality job!
 

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Years ago when we added a GNC300xl to our Arrow panel we went with a then "Approach Systems" Pro Hub and Cable System, all avionics connect separately, so now for example changing a Transponder means we only need a new xponder cable to the hub, same for a radio, altitude encoder, Nav indicator etc. Our avionics shop had given us a quote for the install without the hub, and would only an charge hourly rate for the install with the hub, in the end buying the hub and cables plus the hours charged came out less than the original quote. And now we save money with every change or addition, to our panel.
 
seaghost said:
Years ago when we added a GNC300xl to our Arrow panel we went with a then "Approach Systems" Pro Hub and Cable System, all avionics connect separately, so now for example changing a Transponder means we only need a new xponder cable to the hub, same for a radio, altitude encoder, Nav indicator etc. Our avionics shop had given us a quote for the install without the hub, and would only an charge hourly rate for the install with the hub, in the end buying the hub and cables plus the hours charged came out less than the original quote. And now we save money with every change or addition, to our panel.
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I used the Approach FastStack or Pro Hub in my experimental RV10. It was the key to 1) enabling me to do my own panel and 2) enabling easy updates. It really works well.

The best part was the deep knowledge on the part of the folks at Approach, particularly Tim Hass. Even though I installed a hodgepodge of certified and experimental equipment including 3 EFIS/MFD screens, 2 axis AP, etc, he knew long before I had figured out exactly the connections needed to optimize the various components (and there were more than a few optional ways to wire things together). Upgrades generally just require ordering a new cable, possibly discarding an old one, and plugging it in. I’ve done a few. The whole installation is documented in detail and updated as part of any upgrade.

Can’t say enough good things about the ‘their approach’, the hub, and their service.

I can see how it would enable supervised owner assisted upgrades on certified craft if desired.


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Ya wanna know why upgrades cost money? This is why:

Low res worth money.jpg

They're very complex. And, BTW, what you're seeing here is the very first substantial avionics upgrade since the plane rolled out of the factory in 1997. Most of the older airplanes most of us are flying from the 60s or 70s have who knows how many wires leading to nowhere, making the job that much more complex, whether or not you choose to remove them.

IMO, what I paid for the upgrade above was worth every penny.
 
i have often wondered how much labor it is to get rid of every piece of old wiring nightmare out and re-wire the entire thing... but i am afraid to ask the question to my avionics guy
 
WannFly said:
i have often wondered how much labor it is to get rid of every piece of old wiring nightmare out and re-wire the entire thing... but i am afraid to ask the question to my avionics guy
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Couple hundred hours NBD.
 
If it were just running wires it wouldn't be a big deal. But you have to think that every little wire is terminated by a pin, a ring terminal etc. and must be grounded and connected in the way it is now. That involves hundreds if not thousands, of terminals each of which involves stripping, crimping and grounding in some instances. You also have to consider the time and human contortionist skills it takes to tear everything apart including interior and instruments and put them all back together again.
 
Aaaaand each wire should be marked. Unless you have a self-feeding laser wire marker or similar, that can also cut them to length, its a slow process

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WannFly said:
i have often wondered how much labor it is to get rid of every piece of old wiring nightmare out and re-wire the entire thing... but i am afraid to ask the question to my avionics guy
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I had a pro shop build the harnesses for the G3X system in my RV-10. IIRC, the harnesses were $2500. They span from all of the G3X boxes to a 2 servo autopilot to a Garmin 625, Com gear, Txp, etc. Even after that, I guarantee there's 50 more hours in routing and terminating things, 'cause you frequently only get the connector on one end and bare wires on the other end so you can fish the bare wire end through the nooks and crannies, then terminate the wires once you've pulled that end of the bundle to its destination.
 
kyleb said:
I had a pro shop build the harnesses for the G3X system in my RV-10. IIRC, the harnesses were $2500. They span from all of the G3X boxes to a 2 servo autopilot to a Garmin 625, Com gear, Txp, etc. Even after that, I guarantee there's 50 more hours in routing and terminating things, 'cause you frequently only get the connector on one end and bare wires on the other end so you can fish the bare wire end through the nooks and crannies, then terminate the wires once you've pulled that end of the bundle to its destination.
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I can guarantee in my old bird there is a gazillion feet on wires that doesn’t go anywhere. At one point this plane was a avionics test bed for ASI, just during those 15 years or so, they had changed like 20 diff instruments. If I ever have to go this route, I might pull every wire out myself, route the wires under supervision and get something consolidated. Even with that, this ain’t gonna be cheap .... sigh
 
WannFly said:
I can guarantee in my old bird there is a gazillion feet on wires that doesn’t go anywhere. At one point this plane was a avionics test bed for ASI, just during those 15 years or so, they had changed like 20 diff instruments. If I ever have to go this route, I might pull every wire out myself, route the wires under supervision and get something consolidated.
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So, every month or so, get yourself a set of wire snips and climb under the panel for 30 minutes or an hour. When you find a "wire to nowhere" or a bundle of 'em pull 'em back to the source and remove them. It doesn't have to be a marathon de-wiring session, but every wire you remove today is less weight, less wire to remove tomorrow, and one fewer false lead when someone is troubleshooting under the panel.
 
asicer said:
There are more folks at Approach besides Tim Hass? :)
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Frankly I have no idea. He’s the only person I’ve ever communicated with there. I don’t even know how big an organization it is, how long it’s been around, what all they do.

Sounds like you might know more... please share.


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Bill Watson said:
Frankly I have no idea. He’s the only person I’ve ever communicated with there. I don’t even know how big an organization it is, how long it’s been around, what all they do.

Sounds like you might know more... please share.
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I don't know either. I just know that the couple times I called, the conversation always started with "Hi, this is Tim".
 
asicer said:
I don't know either. I just know that the couple times I called, the conversation always started with "Hi, this is Tim".
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Same here but must admit, I’ve considered that a plus.


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