Why are ODPs not required in IMC?

I never had a controller remind me to fly the ODP. The closest was something like 20 or 25 years ago,when a departure controller asked me how I was navigating on an IFR departure from Salinas, CA (SNS), which has a co-located VOR of the same name. I answered, "via Salinas." I then followed up with "I'm flying the departure procedure, if that's what you wanted to know." He replied "Yes, that was it."
 
I am saying that it is not a national procedure, as the AUS controller told you, and that it isn't something that is normally done.

The local technique has apparently conditioned at least that one AUS controller to think that this is a national procedure. Its regular use at your home airport conditioned you to think so as well. What happens when such a pilot is departing from an airport somewhere else where the controllers don't routinely remind pilots of the ODP? Will he know that it's his responsibility?

I've seen this conditioning affect many times over my career. It is very common on all sorts of topics. Pilots tend to "do what my CFI did" without thinking about why it is being done. That student "grows up" to be a CFI and teaches his students the same thing, still not knowing why. It becomes "tribal knowledge".

There's a great story that the late "Bad Chaz" Harrell (sp?) told in his Effective Mental Conditioning lecture, back in the 1980s/90s, about an examiner who kept getting private pilot applicants who would taxi at a high RPM dragging the brakes to control their speed. When asked why, they'd say, "Because it's good for the motor" but they couldn't explain it any further. I won't ruin the punchline but it was something that had been passed from CFI to student down the chain for many years without any of them know why. When he traced is back to the old, retired CFI who originated the chain, it was for something that no longer applied to modern aircraft.

Here's the whole lecture. It's very good. I don't remember how far into it the "because it's good for the motor" story is.

In the late 1980s I was a flight instructor at a very busy towered airport that had an aviation university flight program plus three additional busy flight schools. It wasn't unusual for 10, or more, aircraft to be in the pattern at the same time. Some of the controllers had developed the habit of instructing each airplane to report downwind abeam the tower on each circuit. "Make left closed traffic, report downwind abeam the tower on each pass". It wasn't all of the controllers who used that technique, though. Others, in my opinion better, controllers considered it a crutch and would only use it when there was a good reason for it; not routinely. Afterall, when you have 10 or 12 airplanes in the VFR pattern, do you really need extra radio calls tying up the frequency?

Pretty soon, everyone had been conditioned to make that report regardless of whether or not the controller had asked for it. Since everyone was making it anyway, many of the controllers who relied on the report would often leave out the instruction to make it. Didn't matter, right?, as everyone's making it anyway. Now what happens when a transient pilot comes in and doesn't know that the controller is expecting a report that he was never told to make?

Another affect was that many of the pilots would fly their upwind, crosswind, and first half of downwind with the expectation that they wouldn't be interacting with ATC until they made their "abeam" report as that's how it had always worked. That's were the controllers would usually give them their sequence. The result was a higher rate of missed calls for pilots who hadn't reached the mid-field abeam point in the pattern. Many simply weren't listening yet.

Lastly, I'd take my students to a nearby non-towered field for landing practice and you'd have other airplanes, based at the same towered field, making position reports of, "[airport] traffic, [callsign], left downwind, abeam, touch-and-go". Abeam what? There is no tower to be 'abeam' of. "Abeam" had become a synonym of "midfield". A midfield downwind report isn't even one of the recommended reports to make at a non-towered field.


That's the appeal-to-authority fallacy. Just because he should know, doesn't mean that he does. His position still has to be backed up with facts and, in this case, it is not.

Always track it back to the source. The FARs, AIM, ACs, 7110.65, etc. Those are the real authorities. Those of us with more experience can often be helpful in pointing you in the right direction, even if we are wrong ourselves. But never accept our opinions just because the person giving it 'should know'.

The pattern report is good example of pilots being conditioned to something that isn't a standard but if you hear it enough, well it must be. Far too often on POA it’s “at my field” statements where they believe it has to be in writing when in actuality it’s not. Might be common but not a standard based on any reference.

Another example of a technique I experienced that evolved into an assumed requirement. Years ago while stationed at Miramar doing ATC, one day our facility officer stormed in the radar room and asked “how much of an IFR clearance is required to be read back?” You see, on CD everyone had gotten into the habit of telling the pilots they’re required to hear a read back. It seemed regulatory but fighter pilots being all knowing and constantly seeking brevity, started getting ticked and complained to our ATCFO. So what’s required? Nothing. Well, at the time altitude was but that was removed with a GENOT long ago. In my observation since then, we (aviation) have transitioned back to complete readbacks based on a false assumption that’s it’s required because it’s heard so much.

“And flight” is another technique that’s become common. One day returning from a formation flight to Hunter AAF, I noticed my copilot use “Army Copter 12345 and flight” with ATC on every transmission. In debrief, I asked why he added “and flight.” He said it was required phraseology for a formation with ATC. I gave him the night to look that up and give me a reference. Of course there’s no requirement because there’s so little in the .65 that even deals with formation ops. Just another common phraseology heard on the radio that it assumed regulatory…even today.

So we have techniques and we have standards based on valid references. To quote an old Army civ DoD IP I worked with. “Don’t let your technique become my standard.” ;)
 
The AIM recommends certain read backs, but most pilots at my home field go way beyond that by reading back EVERY SINGLE WORD. I find myself wondering how students manage to pay attention to their aviating when I hear them struggling with all that verbiage. I also wonder how many pilots think I'm doing it wrong when I read back only what's required.
 
Advisory vertical guidance comes from the 8260.3 for the IAP under additional flight data. Example: KUDD RNAV Rwy 10 under addition flight data: JANEN TO RW10: 3.08/40.

Sensor FAFs were part of the directives for the overlay program.
Advisory guidance for the ODP comes from the description of the ODP.
 
It is a local AUS procedure. There is no requirement for ATC to ever mention an ODP unless they need to assign it to ensure separation or they need to know if you are going to fly it for separation purposes.
You’re correct and, in hindsight and after reviewing the wording of my earlier post re the phone call, how I described it was very misleading. I said “required”, implying it was required of all controllers nationwide, which was not my intent or understanding. At best it’s “required LOCALLY”, from what he said and even that’s too definitive. He probably said something closer to “we have our controllers ask about the ODP” or something along those lines. I got the impression it’s a local practice, driven by an interpretation of guidance (not a requirement or reg) from the book. So, my fault for using very poor wording. I apologize for the stir.
 
You’re correct and, in hindsight and after reviewing the wording of my earlier post re the phone call, how I described it was very misleading. I said “required”, implying it was required of all controllers nationwide, which was not my intent or understanding. At best it’s “required LOCALLY”, from what he said and even that’s too definitive. He probably said something closer to “we have our controllers ask about the ODP” or something along those lines. I got the impression it’s a local practice, driven by an interpretation of guidance (not a requirement or reg) from the book. So, my fault for using very poor wording. I apologize for the stir.
Many of us learn when someone creates a stir.
 
The AIM recommends certain read backs, but most pilots at my home field go way beyond that by reading back EVERY SINGLE WORD. I find myself wondering how students manage to pay attention to their aviating when I hear them struggling with all that verbiage. I also wonder how many pilots think I'm doing it wrong when I read back only what's required.
Now I am curious, and will have to ask that on my next IPC. :D

Tim
 
I don't get it.
I think it's simple. An ODP is described in detail. Just a series of courses, distances, and altitudes. They may not want to do it, but I don't know of anything preventing Jepp or Garmin from doing exactly what a pilot can manually do in Foreflight or a certified GPS.
 
I think it's simple. An ODP is described in detail. Just a series of courses, distances, and altitudes. They may not want to do it, but I don't know of anything preventing Jepp or Garmin from doing exactly what a pilot can manually do in Foreflight or a certified GPS.

Liability, real or perceived. Some lawyer will take on a case and sue them.
As long as they only reproduce what is provided by the FAA, they avoid a lot of potential exposure.

Lastly, this does not produce additional revenue, if it does it will be in the marginal numbers for companies that large.

Tim
 
This has me wondering just how many ODP's there are. How many altogether, how many textual, how many graphic, which of those are RNAV, which are conventional.
 
You’re correct and, in hindsight and after reviewing the wording of my earlier post re the phone call, how I described it was very misleading. I said “required”, implying it was required of all controllers nationwide, which was not my intent or understanding. At best it’s “required LOCALLY”, from what he said and even that’s too definitive. He probably said something closer to “we have our controllers ask about the ODP” or something along those lines. I got the impression it’s a local practice, driven by an interpretation of guidance (not a requirement or reg) from the book. So, my fault for using very poor wording. I apologize for the stir.
I do not accept your apology. That's because I think you have no reason to apologize. Stirring is what it's all about unless we become an echo chamber of a just a bunch of folk who all agree with each other and just pat each other on the back. I think your posts and the replies to them have probably been valuable info to many. That you started out with something that wasn't all i's dotted and t's crossed correct is no thang in my opinion. Hell, I'm falling all over my sword in another thread over something I said that was not correct. And the ensuing 'stir' has been very valuable to me, and I hope others. And on the subject of stirring.....
 
This has me wondering just how many ODP's there are. How many altogether, how many textual, how many graphic, which of those are RNAV, which are conventional.
227 charted ODPs, 111 of them RNAV. I can search for airports with takeoff minimums (3,079) but haven't found a way to drill down for "departure procedures" here.
 
Liability, real or perceived. Some lawyer will take on a case and sue them.
As long as they only reproduce what is provided by the FAA, they avoid a lot of potential exposure.

Lastly, this does not produce additional revenue, if it does it will be in the marginal numbers for companies that large.

Tim
Of course (although they do go beyond what is provided by the FAA). That why I emphasized "They may not want to do it."
 
227 charted ODPs, 111 of them RNAV. I can search for airports with takeoff minimums (3,079) but haven't found a way to drill down for "departure procedures" here.
Damn, that was quick. If there are takeoff minimums there is almost certainly a departure procedure also. Anyway, 227-111=116 out of 3079. It's a start.
 
I think it's simple. An ODP is described in detail. Just a series of courses, distances, and altitudes. They may not want to do it, but I don't know of anything preventing Jepp or Garmin from doing exactly what a pilot can manually do in Foreflight or a certified GPS.
Database vendors chart ODPs when the FAA submits them on the appropriate form (8260.15B). The database vendors got burned badly 10 years, or so, ago with the WAGGE departure at Reno.
 
L
I do not accept your apology. That's because I think you have no reason to apologize. Stirring is what it's all about unless we become an echo chamber of a just a bunch of folk who all agree with each other and just pat each other on the back. I think your posts and the replies to them have probably been valuable info to many. That you started out with something that wasn't all i's dotted and t's crossed correct is no thang in my opinion. Hell, I'm falling all over my sword in another thread over something I said that was not correct. And the ensuing 'stir' has been very valuable to me, and I hope others. And on the subject of stirring.....
LOL - thanks.

I’ll be honest, the tenor in this and other threads just surprises me. I started off saying I may be missing something obvious and even said I didn’t mean to come across the wrong way. In a culture where readbacks are expected, “confirm you have the weather and NOTAMS”, and a host of other standardized things, it would seem reasonable to imagine this was standardized as well. I come from healthcare, where we’ve taken lessons on standardization from US aviation, to avoid wrong-site, wrong-patient surgeries, for example. To get “sheesh’d” for thinking things are indeed standardized caught me off guard.

I suspect the average pilot doesn’t even know of the .65, let alone its contents. That should be one of the values of a big forum like this: shared learning. And given all the cross-checking I understand happens in a 2-pilot cockpit, I’m surprised by the idea that having ATC confirm a pilot has the ODP would somehow build in “dependency”. In the OR, we expect EVERYONE- surgeon, nurses, techs, anesthesia - to physically stop what they’re doing for a “time-out” while the patient’s name, the surgery, etc. are confirmed by the group. Anyone who thinks that “builds dependency” and the name and surgery may not be checked before that point is, well, mistaken.

I don’t mind at all being corrected - that’s how I learn. HOW people correct and how they judge for perceived errors doesn’t improve a thing, sometimes.
 
Damn, that was quick. If there are takeoff minimums there is almost certainly a departure procedure also. Anyway, 227-111=116 out of 3079. It's a start.
Lots of airports in the flatlands with takeoff minimums and no ODP.
 
Damn, that was quick. If there are takeoff minimums there is almost certainly a departure procedure also. Anyway, 227-111=116 out of 3079. It's a start.
Yeah but it's not universal. There are definitely airports with takeoff minimums but no ODP. There's one right near me. Takeoff minimums; obstacle notes, but no DP.
upload_2021-12-30_8-50-53.png
 
Lots of airports in the flatlands with takeoff minimums and no ODP.
Ok. Seemed to me that if it passed the Diverse Departure Assesment, that would be the end of it. No OPD required. But I see the logic now. Raise the Minimums from Standard and you can still get away with no Departure Procedure.
 
I’m surprised by the idea that having ATC confirm a pilot has the ODP would somehow build in “dependency”.
That would be fine, IF it were the established procedure. The problem is that AUS has implemented a non-standard local procedure which has conditioned at least one of their controllers, and likely a number of pilots, into thinking that it is a standard procedure.

Lots of airports in the flatlands with takeoff minimums and no ODP.
I flew from an airport, many years ago, where the ODP was something like, "Plan departure to avoid X,xxx' tower Y.y nm northwest of the airport". Looks like it's since been replaced with a heading until a minimum altitude for each runway.

I thought ODPs were mandatory. When did that change?
They are mandatory for commercial operators. Not for part 91 operations.

AIM 5-2-8
e. Responsibilities.

1. Each pilot, prior to departing an airport on an IFR flight should consider the type of terrain and other obstacles on or in the vicinity of the departure airport; and:

2. Determine whether an ODP is available; and

3. Determine if obstacle avoidance can be maintained visually or if the ODP should be flown;
 
I thought ODPs were mandatory. When did that change?
According to the FAA's historical CFR page, the requirement to fly an ODP if published was not even introduced to paragraph 91.175(f) until 2007. However, the opening of that paragraph says that it only applies to operations under parts 121, 125, 129, or 135.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

If there was a requirement prior to that, I don't know where it was.
 
I flew from an airport, many years ago, where the ODP was something like, "Plan departure to avoid X,xxx' tower Y.y nm northwest of the airport". Looks like it's since been replaced with a heading until a minimum altitude for each runway.
How many years ago was that? That doesn't sound like an ODP. I'm going to guess it was more than about 20 years ago when IFR Departure Procedures were renamed to Obstacle Departure Procedures. And it still doesn't sound like one of those. @aterpster , do you remember any that were that vague? Just plan to avoid a particular obstruction?
 
I would hazard a guess that the issue is one of ambiguity as to when it can/should be flown as opposed to the visibility of the procedure. The clearance here was likely 'as filed', or 'upon entering controlled airspace, direct [first fix], then as filed'. A pilot who routinely flies out of a towered airport with assigned headings, or assigned SID, or an assigned ODP for years at a time will likely forget the nuance that ODP's can be flown, without assignment, in lieu of radar vectors or a SID in the clearance. In short, "direct [first fix]" or "as filed" leans HEAVILY on an understanding of IFR procedures which may be lacking or rusty. "Well, the controller said direct, so....I guess we're good to go. They wouldn't assign that if it wasn't safe. The controller is responsible for terrain separation..." etc.

That would be fine if this was HAMMERED home during instrument training. But, sadly, it's often not.

Blanket assignment of the ODP from all non-towered fields isn't the solution. Rather, we just need to make sure pilots are reminded of the responsibility for terrain and obstacle separation when an ODP exists at an airport. The pre-flight planning should ALWAYS include a review of just how the hell you're going to get from the ground to the enroute structure safely if you can't see a darned thing. The pilot should've been planning to fly the ODP long before they even got the clearance, and it should've been in the FP remarks.
 
According to the FAA's historical CFR page, the requirement to fly an ODP if published was not even introduced to paragraph 91.175(f) until 2007. However, the opening of that paragraph says that it only applies to operations under parts 121, 125, 129, or 135.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

If there was a requirement prior to that, I don't know where it was.
I looked too since my last comment. You are correct. ODPs are first mentioned in Part 91 in 2007 when the takeoff minimums paragraph was amended to add them. I was surprised it was that late! And like the takeoff minimums going back to at least 1980, they only applied to Part 121, 125, 129, and 135.
 
This is a great example of the authors point. I looked hard for the ODP in the FAA charts on foreflight.you have to read through the alternate minimums and ODP text which is alphabetized and not based on the airport name. So it takes some work to get there. It would help if foreflight and others would at least link direct to that airports information rather than going to the beginning of he alphabet. Jeppensen does a much better job in this respect.

I've worked with this stuff for years. My view is that the FAA shares no small part of the blame. Industry got the FAA to change the departure order years ago to require charting of complex ODPs and all RNAV OPDs. The RNAV ODP sticks out at you because it is on a chart, not buried (especially buried with FAA charts). But, if all full-route ODPs had to be charted, the system would be safer. No new regulation is required, just more diligence on the part of the FAA's procedures designers. The author is spot-on on that aspect.

One that I like to point out is the OPD at KPUC. It that isn't complex, I don't know what is.

View attachment 103184
 
I would hazard a guess that the issue is one of ambiguity as to when it can/should be flown as opposed to the visibility of the procedure. The clearance here was likely 'as filed', or 'upon entering controlled airspace, direct [first fix], then as filed'. A pilot who routinely flies out of a towered airport with assigned headings, or assigned SID, or an assigned ODP for years at a time will likely forget the nuance that ODP's can be flown, without assignment, in lieu of radar vectors or a SID in the clearance. In short, "direct [first fix]" or "as filed" leans HEAVILY on an understanding of IFR procedures which may be lacking or rusty. "Well, the controller said direct, so....I guess we're good to go. They wouldn't assign that if it wasn't safe. The controller is responsible for terrain separation..." etc.

That would be fine if this was HAMMERED home during instrument training. But, sadly, it's often not.

Blanket assignment of the ODP from all non-towered fields isn't the solution. Rather, we just need to make sure pilots are reminded of the responsibility for terrain and obstacle separation when an ODP exists at an airport. The pre-flight planning should ALWAYS include a review of just how the hell you're going to get from the ground to the enroute structure safely if you can't see a darned thing. The pilot should've been planning to fly the ODP long before they even got the clearance, and it should've been in the FP remarks.
Yeah, that. Here's the Cliff Notes version.
1. Where am I
2. Where are the rocks
3. What do I need to do to not hit them.
 
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