Who else thinks Southwest retired planes too early?

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Bradley W, Nov 23, 2017.

  1. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    FedEx and UPS have jets with 25% more cycles. I think its because passengers were upset with no wifi on the classic.
     
  2. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    I don't fly without wifi.
     
  3. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    But do Fedex and UPS have jets with wifi?
     
  4. SCCutler

    SCCutler Administrator Management Council Member

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    I believe that the principal issue is that the SWAPA contract limits the number of subtypes a pilot can be assigned, so the 300s (classics) had to be retired, because the new and frisky 800s (I think?) came on line.
     
  5. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach

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    If the airline will make more money by flying it, they’ll fly it. If they will make more money in the tax dodge game by parking it, then they’ll park it.
     
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  6. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    The decision to retire an aircraft is all about economics, rather than age or cycle number. It makes sense to the airline, but it doesn’t make sense to you.

    If you can find a SWA pilot who is upset about their choice to retire them, let me know.
     
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  7. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Go away ya big trollolololol
     
  8. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You mean SWA has actually started to retire airplanes???

    Wasn’t that long ago the Southwest fleet was one of the oldest.
     
  9. tspear

    tspear Cleared for Takeoff

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    There was a blurb about it when SWA ordered a bunch of new planes. SWA basically said they fly the planes so much that the fuel efficiency improvements make it worth upgrading.

    It is all about the money...

    Tim

    Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
     
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  10. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    The FAA would not let them fly the 737 MAX and 737-300 (classic) as a single qualification. They either had to separate them into two bid groups or park the classics before adding the MAX.
     
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  11. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Exactly. They run the business to maximize profit.

    I just think it’s funny how there was a period long ago when they were boasting about the younger age of their fleet....until it made more fiscal sense to let the Fleet age and then they just stopped talking about it.



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  12. Busflyer

    Busflyer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not sure where your info is from but on average our fleet is below average on cycles.
     
  13. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    The old story was that Southworst saved on maintenance by having a single aircraft they operated. Same story applied to how awesome their annual fuel purchasing was to protect against rising fuel prices.

    Not sure what they tell their investors these days, other than "we've got our customers used to the Greyhound of the sky, so let's keep doing stupid songs and buckling their dumb asses down as long as we can."
     
  14. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    None of the above is solely correct.

    The FAA would allow SWA to have pilots trained in 300, 500, 700 and 800 at the same time and to freely move between them. But the new 737-MAX was considered too far advanced and pilots had to be split into 300/500 and 700/800/MAX pools for everything - training, scheduling, admin, etc. SWA decided to keep a single flexible pilot pool and therefore started retiring the older planes. Maintaining flexibility was a significant and probably the deciding factor.
     
  15. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I don't like Southwest.
     
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  16. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Age and cycles figures into economics. Older airliners require more maintenance and are out of service longer.
     
  17. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    I don't fly without assigned seating. :D
     
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  18. KSCessnaDriver

    KSCessnaDriver Pattern Altitude

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    I'd bet that the utilization on a FX or 5X airplane is way lower than one at WN.
     
  19. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Flew on SW recently and had a very good experience. Mainly flew Delta when I was flying and AA a few times in the past. AA terrible and cramped, Delta ok but I really was impressed with SW. It was on a new Max I think it's called, 4+ hour direct flight from BHM to LAS lots of leg room, wider seats for my big ass.
     
  20. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

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    AA must be really tight as I've never (in nearly 50 years of riding airliners) had adequate legroom on Delta. I regard them as the Lufthansa of US airlines. I think I'll stick with E+ on UA.
     
  21. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    They should have waited for the MAX until 2023 and purchased more used 700s. This way the 300s would have cycled out naturally and the pilots would be happy.
    Also, by 2023 many pilots would have aged out and not needed to do the sim.
     
  22. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Can’t say I am speaking from anything I know about personally, but a long time 737 Captain and I chuckled over FAA claiming the MAX needed a different type rating.

    His opinion was the 737 never was Boeing’s finest effort, it just came along at the right time, and that the cockpit has been crippled by the desire to keep it a single type rating for a very very long time.

    But he also believes the MAX really isn’t all that big a deal.

    “It’ll still fly like a Guppy and it’ll need a higher approach speed than ever to keep from whacking the tail on the ground. And it’ll be really close to max tire speed and blowing tires on takeoff on hot high days.”

    He thought the politics of the new type had more to do with FAA thinking it must be insane that a type could stay the same across so many years of a product line and even under pressure NOT to make it a new type, they decided they had to. But it’ll still fly like all the other Guppies he’s flown.

    He’s typed in six different Boeings and bids the 73 so he doesn’t have to commute, and has been on it as a Captain for one year less than two decades, so there ya go.

    Take it with whatever grain of salt you like.

    He says going to recurrent training and teaching the sim instructors, who have no time on the line in anything and definitely don’t have twenty years on the same aircraft as a Captain, things about the airplane, is pretty entertaining. He also shows them all the little things the sim does that aren’t accurate in the real aircraft.

    Dude knows his Guppies. He likes the job, happily flies them, but he knows all the Guppy’s bad sides, too. He’ll be on it for quite a while longer as long as he wants to bid a particular senior base. He doesn’t mind. But he laughs at some of the training requirements that have come up over the years.

    They don’t ask him too often “officially” about what the important stuff is that’ll bite you square in the butt in the 73.

    But they probably should.

    He’s offered some thoughts gently about things with both his company and their FAA reps when he sees them. Nothing pushy, just conversation. He laughs that their current FAA rep running the whole show has a whopping seven years in the industry.

    Sometimes this biz sure is strange. Fun to talk to old timers though.
     
  23. Bradley W

    Bradley W Ejection Handle Pulled

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    If it ain't Boeing i ain't going. Hopefully the 757/767 production line will restart soon for SWA
     
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  24. Mooney Fan

    Mooney Fan Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Retired Boeing-737 makes for a unique eating experience
    by Matt Mershon

    Friday, July 10th 2015

    [​IMG]


    WALNUT RIDGE (KATV) — Airplane food has always had a bad reputation, but one northeast Arkansas restaurant is challenging that theory. The Parachute Inn serves up southern classics and Americana all on board an old Boeing 737.

    If you aren't looking for it, it's not easy to find, but once you see it - it's hard to miss. Tucked away next to the terminal at the Walnut Ridge Regional Airport, the Parachute Inn is the next best thing to land at the airport since the Beatles did back in 1964.

    http://katv.com/archive/retired-boeing-737-makes-for-a-unique-eating-experience
     
  25. RDUPilot

    RDUPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Because I fly mostly out of RDU International Airport; but really an over glorified Regional Airport, I fly SWA. Many of reason..
    1. Airfare..
    2. I don't want to be herded into a plane like cattle...
    3. Boarding is much simpler. A B C, don't have time for Emerald, Platinum, Gold, First Class, Business Class, No Class, blah, blah
    4. Better direct flights from RDU
    5. Terminal where I board at RDU, they are the only gig in town.. Makes getting through TSA a breeze.
    I use to like JetBlue, but they bumped their head with their airfare...
     
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  26. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    This is probably the most accurate airline comparison chart I’ve seen

    [​IMG]
     
  27. CMongoose

    CMongoose Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Are you suggesting that this would be more cost efficient than their current approach, or just more elegant? It is rare that those two optimization options align.
     
  28. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That's not going to happen.
     
  29. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Bradley,

    I realize you are not a pilot and you are not involved in the aviation industry outside of pretending while playing on a flight sim.

    I think you are getting a lot of misinformation on the flight sim forums as many of the post you make are just ignorant or plain silly. The one above demonstrates this.
     
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  30. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Hope so. With my luck the first time I fly one of our MAX-8s will be into LGA in the middle of a snowstorm. :)

    Fortunately for us all we have are the -8 models, so the speeds aren’t *too* ridiculous.
     
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  31. RDUPilot

    RDUPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ughhh, LGA.. I hope you are not that lucky sir...
     
  32. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Yeah, fortunately I’m senior enough to not have to fly out of LGA unless I choose to, which is usually never. ;)
     
  33. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    I’ve ate there.
     
  34. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Line Up and Wait

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    The MAX 7/8/9 are the same fuselage lengths as the NG -700/800/900. Approach speeds will be the same. The MAX 10 will be longer but they are modifying the main gear so that there will be additional tail clearance without increasing the speeds.

    The MAX does not require a separate type rating.
     
  35. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    Our books on the 800/MAX-8 say the tube is about 4 feet longer, although most of that is absorbed into the tail area, so the overall length is pretty close.

    We squeezed an extra 12 people into that 4 feet. Ugh. Our first MAX flies Wednesday of next week. LGA-MIA will be its route for awhile.
     
  36. jbDC9

    jbDC9 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wow. Dude, just quit while you're behind and stop posting here. It just makes you look stupid.
     
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  37. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    Cool. I was going off the news here. At the time of the discussion with him, they were still deciding and it was leaning toward new type.

    It was the “fake news” from here in the thread that had me thinking they’d decided to go with a new type.
     
  38. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Pattern Altitude

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    If a 717 can use a DC-9 type, the MAX can certainly use the 737 type. :) The screens are bigger and prettier, different engines, and there are a few differences under the hood, but from an operational standpoint not much has changed.

    Of course I say that after having only been through the online training modules. Perhaps my attitude will be different once I actually fly one. My hatred of all things LGA means it’ll probably be awhile.
     
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  39. Luigi

    Luigi Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I never fly without my shoehorn.
     
  40. jonnyjetprop

    jonnyjetprop Line Up and Wait

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    There's only one B-737 type rating. What folks are quoting are the differences training outlined in the Flight Standardization Board report for the B-737.

    http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/b-737_rev 14.pdf

    The report groups the B-737 into several groups:

    100/200
    300/400/500
    600/700/800/900
    Max Series

    What the FAA said was that they wouldn't allow SW pilots to be qualified in all three groups simultaneously.
     
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