Which Twin?

jordane93 said:
I think you want this

IMG_0195_zps0iiepoqg.jpg
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That prop looks mean!
 
I never got to fly it unfortunately:(. I flew with the owner down to SC in his SR22 for him to pick it up but I had to fly the Cirrus back up to NY. Every time he asked if I wanted to fly it, I always had a student booked.
 
mtuomi said:
Except it would tick none of his boxes? It's not cabin class, it's not that roomy for a... ahem.. full size person, it's not pressurized (and it's not twin).
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OP's main concern was to have a plane in which his wife feels more comfortable, room and safety feature wise. I doubt that some of the old school twins, proposed in this thread, make a non-pilot passenger more comfortable than a roomy Cirrus, with a luxury vehicle style interior and a chute. Plus, the OP still wants to be able to do short hops.

Rykymus said:
[...] I enjoy my Archer, but I'm 6ft/260 (don't yell, I'm down from 300 and still losing). My wife is 5'6"/125, but still feels cramped and uneasy in the plane. (Probably because I take up so much room.) She is very sensitive to things like altitude, motion, etc, and I have yet to get her to fly more than 1.5 hrs without being physically and mentally wiped for at least 24hrs. 1 hour seems to be her comfortable max, at least in this plane. I know she enjoys flying, as she gets awfully excited at airports, and seeing things from above, and often suggests that we fly somewhere. (Sometimes even just a spin around town.)
[...]
Such a plane is likely to tick all the boxes necessary to make my wife feel "safe".
[...]
Missions would range from short hops around CA (we live in central CA) 50-300nm, trips up to OR/WA, and into Vegas. Also would likely do trips back east at least once per year.
[...]
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IMHO only a smaller twin would fit this mission, but then the cockpit wouldn't be any bigger than in a Cirrus, but most likely only with a single door.

Sure, short hops can also be done in a big pressurized twin turbine aircraft. Does it make much sense? Probably not. $500K would buy a damn fine SR22 Turbo with all creature comforts, incl. a/c and de-icing....
 
Find the nicest 340 or 414 out there. Occasionally someone overhauls and tricks out one of them only to realize later that what he needed was a King Air.
 
I just went through this process going from a Mooney M20J. You have to draw the line somewhere and a turbine anything was not worth my consideration. I did determine that for me once I made the step to a twin going to a pressurized cabin class was not that much of a difference. The final decision was a Cessna 414. Plenty of support, parts, training, and my wife is thrilled with the space of the cabin. A/C, gas heater, pressurization and other such amenities make it a very comfortable ride. I would have preferred a 414A, but the much higher acquisition costs and the 49' wingspan ruled that out for me. $500k will get you a very nice 414A. You can find legitimate calculations that show operating costs anywhere from $400 to $600/ hour for a 414. The more you fly the lower the costs per hour will be. Have fun with your search.
 
German guy makes a good point. And, admittedly, my wife is attracted to the Cirrus because of its styling, comfort, and especially because of the chute. I wanted something a bit bigger, with the ability to seat 6, even though we would rarely carry six. But at least we'd be able to carry 4 adults with luggage and a few hours of fuel. Also, a larger, heavier plane will feel more "stable" to her. Flashy might impress on first looks, but how she feels at the end of 2-3 hour haul is the real test. However, if I were to stay single engine, I think I would lean more toward a Commander 114/115.

Unfortunately, there is also the "wow" factor, in that she feels good arriving in style. (Which is why we drive her Mercedes to dinner, instead of my pickup.) A larger, cabin class, twin *feels* like a more reliable aircraft to her. Myself, I'd likely be happy putting around in my Archer for eternity. But I sure as hell wouldn't mind a cabin class twin...just to make her happy, of course.
 
Easy algorithm. She wants a Cirrus --> you buy a Cirrus.
 
Lance F said:
I just went through this process going from a Mooney M20J. You have to draw the line somewhere and a turbine anything was not worth my consideration. I did determine that for me once I made the step to a twin going to a pressurized cabin class was not that much of a difference. The final decision was a Cessna 414. Plenty of support, parts, training, and my wife is thrilled with the space of the cabin. A/C, gas heater, pressurization and other such amenities make it a very comfortable ride. I would have preferred a 414A, but the much higher acquisition costs and the 49' wingspan ruled that out for me. $500k will get you a very nice 414A. You can find legitimate calculations that show operating costs anywhere from $400 to $600/ hour for a 414. The more you fly the lower the costs per hour will be. Have fun with your search.
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500K should get you a couple nice Cessna 414A, or one that was a personal executive transport with dual everything, except only one potty.....:)
 
Rykymus said:
German guy makes a good point. And, admittedly, my wife is attracted to the Cirrus because of its styling, comfort, and especially because of the chute. I wanted something a bit bigger
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Then get something bigger. The Cirrus is a great airplane, but it sounds like you want your wife to feel like she's in a private airliner, and one way to NOT do that is tell her she has to stick a cannula in her nose anytime you need the range or want to get over the weather/rocks. If I had 10K/month to spend on an airplane, there is no effing way I'd consider something that's not pressurized*.


*old warbirds excepted :)
 
kayoh190 said:
Seems to me that if you really want a cabin class piston twin instead of a turboprop, you'd be best off with a something more common like a 340, 414, or 421.
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+1
Seems pressurized is going to be mandatory given wife's sensitivity to altitude. This is where I would start given that criteria, unless a turbine is really the object of desire. But a turbine seems a rather large step up in one go from an Archer - especially an MU2.

(and now we'll hunker down and wait for the inevitable rebuttals to that last observation :D )
 
Seneca V or an older beech 58,that should get you started .
 
The more I look at the 414A's, the more they seem like a great fit. Anyone know the cost of ops?
 
$400 to $600 per hour depending on how many hours you fly and what you include in the calculation.

$500k will NOT get you two nice 414As. I wish.
 
Rykymus said:
German guy makes a good point. And, admittedly, my wife is attracted to the Cirrus because of its styling, comfort, and especially because of the chute. I wanted something a bit bigger, with the ability to seat 6, even though we would rarely carry six. But at least we'd be able to carry 4 adults with luggage and a few hours of fuel. Also, a larger, heavier plane will feel more "stable" to her. Flashy might impress on first looks, but how she feels at the end of 2-3 hour haul is the real test. However, if I were to stay single engine, I think I would lean more toward a Commander 114/115.

Unfortunately, there is also the "wow" factor, in that she feels good arriving in style. (Which is why we drive her Mercedes to dinner, instead of my pickup.) A larger, cabin class, twin *feels* like a more reliable aircraft to her. Myself, I'd likely be happy putting around in my Archer for eternity. But I sure as hell wouldn't mind a cabin class twin...just to make her happy, of course.
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Suggest you put her in a Cirrus, spend a couple of hours at 20,000+ ft and see how long it takes her to recover from that. If she has problems with altitude a Cirrus won't make her too happy I suspect.
 
Rykymus said:
German guy makes a good point. And, admittedly, my wife is attracted to the Cirrus because of its styling, comfort, and especially because of the chute. I wanted something a bit bigger, with the ability to seat 6, even though we would rarely carry six. But at least we'd be able to carry 4 adults with luggage and a few hours of fuel. Also, a larger, heavier plane will feel more "stable" to her. Flashy might impress on first looks, but how she feels at the end of 2-3 hour haul is the real test. However, if I were to stay single engine, I think I would lean more toward a Commander 114/115.

Unfortunately, there is also the "wow" factor, in that she feels good arriving in style. (Which is why we drive her Mercedes to dinner, instead of my pickup.) A larger, cabin class, twin *feels* like a more reliable aircraft to her. Myself, I'd likely be happy putting around in my Archer for eternity. But I sure as hell wouldn't mind a cabin class twin...just to make her happy, of course.
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You said your wife doesn't like the motion of small planes. A Cirrus is going to get bounced around just like any other piston single or even light twins.

If you want her to travel the country with you.....you gonna need a big airplane, and likely turbo prop or jet. Even my big a$$ Beech 18 isn't completely immune from turbulence, but it is better than the Baron.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You said your wife doesn't like the motion of small planes. A Cirrus is going to get bounced around just like any other piston single or even light twins.

If you want her to travel the country with you.....you gonna need a big airplane, and likely turbo prop or jet. Even my big a$$ Beech 18 isn't completely immune from turbulence, but it is better than the Baron.
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And a DC-3 is that much better but still a rough ride some days.
 
jordane93 said:
I think you want this

IMG_0195_zps0iiepoqg.jpg
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That's going to run about 27k a month with a mentor pilot and about 20k afterwards all in.

But it's a great plane.

Based that on 220 hours a year.

A 414 would probably be more realistic
And easier to insure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
GRG55 said:
Suggest you put her in a Cirrus, spend a couple of hours at 20,000+ ft and see how long it takes her to recover from that. If she has problems with altitude a Cirrus won't make her too happy I suspect.
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+1

I think this is a highly recommendable course of action for anybody in your situation, for any kind of airplane. What if the wife still doesn't wan't to fly much longer than an hour or so, despite of the pressurized mini-airliner sitting in the hangar? Or if she says that she actually rather preferred the relaxed Sunday morning flights at 1000 ft. AGL along the beach, to grab lunch in Half Moon Bay?


Rykymus said:
[...] She is very sensitive to things like altitude, motion, etc, and I have yet to get her to fly more than 1.5 hrs without being physically and mentally wiped for at least 24hrs. 1 hour seems to be her comfortable max, at least in this plane. [...]
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This is the part which made me think that even a big, heavy twin might not be the solution.

@Rykymus I believe that it was just a joke, but somebody suggested that with your budget you could simply hire a King Air including a pilot
Maybe, this is exactly what you and your wife need, until you have figured out if there is a plane which makes her comfortable? Why not charter different planes, including pilots, for a number of different trips, to see which she likes best?
 
Many years ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I spent about 18 months working on the final assembly line building Dukes (and pressurized
Barons). I can't believe everyone has dismissed them to quickly, after all, the Duke would be the sexyist looking plane on the ramp!
 
Rod Broberg said:
Many years ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I spent about 18 months working on the final assembly line building Dukes (and pressurized
Barons). I can't believe everyone has dismissed them to quickly, after all, the Duke would be the sexyist looking plane on the ramp!
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Yeah they are but the maintenance cost speak for it's self.
 
Someone mentioned the DA-42, a higher price tag is the DA-62, but it is bigger and has a huge payload. It is NOT pressurized, but the low operating costs would offset the acquisition cost.

For your mission, a PA-46 seems like the perfect plane, but it only has one engine. But it can be purchased for your price range. Get a Jet-prop and never look back
 
Rod Broberg said:
Many years ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I spent about 18 months working on the final assembly line building Dukes (and pressurized
Barons). I can't believe everyone has dismissed them to quickly, after all, the Duke would be the sexyist looking plane on the ramp!
Click to expand...

Look cool in a Beech Duke
Published on 19 May 2012
Another funny video from a member of BeechTalk (same guy who posted the singles vs twin video). Again, there are a lot of inside jokes here. Every time someone comes to the forum asking if they should buy a Duke all the guys say what an underpowered pig it is, how it won't run lean of peak, etc. And then the guys go ahead and buy the airplane anyway because it's arguably the hottest looking Beech twin.




 
PA46 does look like an option, (and I like that plane) but only if the turboprop version, and that's pricey. However, it is my understanding that they are more reliable, and have longer to overhaul. It is also a pressurized cabin class, which gives her that "private airline" feeling. I have to wonder about the operating costs, of course.

On the other hand, my wife very much prefers the idea of buying a brand-new plane, despite the much higher price. She believes that by paying the higher price for new, we wouldn't be paying to fix problems missed by previous owners. (I don't quite buy that one, myself.)

Single engine is not a deal breaker, whereas unpressurized pretty much is. (No way I'm getting a canula up her nose.) A 200kt plus plane would extend our single hop time range, but something between 180-200 would work nearly as well.
 
What about a Boeing 737, or even an A350, should offer plenty of range and payload

But seriously, most great twins have been mentioned but in singlesWhat about the Piper Mirage? Pressurized, cabin class piston single. Descent cruise speed, FIKI, looks good, fairly roomy, descent payload, 6 seats, fancy door in the back so your wife can arrive in style and main gear so wide you need two taxiways
 
Piper Mojave. Cabin class with a small galley and a toilet, pressurized, your wife would love it. Will cruise at 230+ knots true at FL 250 burning 41 gph, or slow down a bit and cruise at nearly 220 knots on about 37.5 gph, slow down further and it will do 190+ knots burning 32 gph. You can reduce the fuel flows little further by running at economy settings and loosing just few knots of airspeed. This airplane gives you that airliner feeling.
 
Right now, it looks like the plan is to purchase an older Mirage for around $400k, in 2020. Meanwhile, I'll get time in some Complex/HP rentals to build time. The Mirage will meet all her criteria, and get us a few hundred nm in a couple hours. If she takes to traveling more by air with THAT plane, then, (assuming financials hold) we'll look at stepping up to a new M600, or dropping a bunch of money in upgrading the Mirage. I'm hoping to stay with the Mirage for the long haul, and trick it out to our tastes. I like the idea that it won't be too much plane for the more common short hops that we have more often.

Surprisingly, now that I've gotten my Instrument Rating, she seems more relaxed and enjoys flying a bit more. She likes how much more structured and precise IFR flying is. (Or at least, that's how she perceives it.)

Thanks for all the replies.
 
I've had quite a bit of time in both a shrike and an MU2. Right seat only. The MU2 pilot had lots of Lear time and 14000 hours. An MU2 is a very serious airplane and a novice should get some real time in one rather than simply going to the school and then attempting to fly it alone. Insurance would be astronomical. The doctor in oaklahoma, a high time pilot proved this the hard way. The shrike is a very stable, roomy airplane , easy to fly, good on grass fields, and good looking. There's a dealer who specializes in commanders. His name escapes me. If you have more bread then a 1000 commander would be my first choice. Just a great all round airplane, or possibly a decent beech 90. Also.....the MU2 cockpit is very cramped. I'm 195 and 6 feet. From Baltimore to ft. Lauderdale it was torture.
 
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P-337 Riley SkyRocket. 200+ knots, a/c, Pressurized, intercooled, turbo, full fuel +4 adults and a kid with bags. STOL In and out of 2500' with ease. No VMC, single engine service ceiling 18,700. I've had mine for 6 years, avg maintenance(for a twin) and cheap acquisition, around $150,000. 24 gal per hour at 65% pwr gets 185 Knots.
 
Piperboy said:
Piper Mojave. Cabin class with a small galley and a toilet, pressurized, your wife would love it.
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It has a pressurized toilet? Gotta get one of those things.
 
It is kind of funny you say cabin class and twin and there are several recommendations for singles and non-cabin class.

If it were me with what you put in the original post, I'd get a 340. You can get a really nice updated one for less than your budget.

Given your funds, there are many options (several good ones already suggested).
 
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