Which Airplane Has The Right Of Way?

Which airplane has the right of way?

  • Blue

  • Orange

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EdFred

EdFred

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Neither airplane is in distress, both are at the same altitude, they will converge based on airspeed, etc...
RightofWay.gif


Please provide your basis as to why the airplane you chose has the right of way, and what action the airplane that is to give way should do.
 
EdFred said:
Neither airplane is in distress, both are at the same altitude, they will converge based on airspeed, etc...
RightofWay.gif


Please provide your basis as to why the airplane you chose has the right of way, and what action the airplane that is to give way should do.
Click to expand...
Orange.

Now, to address your point of entering on a 45, he shouldn't have put himself in that position in the first place, but if he does, the blue has to give way.

The proper scenario is the orange should have adjusted his entry into the pattern to come in behind the blue and not create the scenario you presented in the first place. If you showed the image with the orange plane further out, the answer would have been blue.

So yes, because orange was a jerk, blue gets screwed if he wants to not die. But the problem is not the scenario you presented, but the one earlier where orange did NOT give blue the right of way he deserved.
 
Assuming one is looking down on the aircraft - 91.113D sez blue be skrewt.
 
Salty said:
Orange.

Now, to address your point of entering on a 45, he shouldn't have put himself in that position in the first place, but if he does, the blue has to give way.

The proper scenario is the orange should have adjusted his entry into the pattern to come in behind the blue and not create the scenario you presented in the first place. If you showed the image with the orange plane further out, the answer would have been blue.

So yes, because orange was a jerk, blue gets screwed if he wants to not die. But the problem is not the scenario you presented, but the one earlier where orange did NOT give blue the right of way he deserved.
Click to expand...
Unless it's a right hand pattern.
 
Salty said:
Orange.

Now, to address your point of entering on a 45, he shouldn't have put himself in that position in the first place, but if he does, the blue has to give way.

The proper scenario is the orange should have adjusted his entry into the pattern to come in behind the blue and not create the scenario you presented in the first place. If you showed the image with the orange plane further out, the answer would have been blue.

So yes, because orange was a jerk, blue gets screwed if he wants to not die. But the problem is not the scenario you presented, but the one earlier where orange did NOT give blue the right of way he deserved.
Click to expand...

I see nothing that says this is a pattern entry situation. I just see two aircraft crossing, and the orange is the stand on plane and the blue is the give way plane.
 
Bill Jennings said:
I see nothing that says this is a pattern entry situation. I just see two aircraft crossing, and the orange is the stand on plane and the blue is the give way plane.
Click to expand...
His question arises from a discussion in another thread regarding pattern entry.
 
Nothing but a hypothetical. Everyone knows that pilots don’t give a rats tail about right-of-way procedures in non-towered traffic patterns.
 
91.113(d). The orange aircraft on right has right of way. He should change speed, altitude or heading to avoid conflict.
 
Since this is from EdFred I'm assuming there's some sort of trick question involved.

EDIT: I refreshed the screen and I was right.
 
And now? Blue is stand on, orange must yield to traffic already on downwind.
 
It's one of my many issues with
luvflyin said:
Ok. 91.113(d) says what it says. So does 91.111(a). So does 91.13(a). Now that we got the flick, let’s ask the real question. You be blue, wadda ya do.
Click to expand...

Don't forget 91.126
 
That highlighted sentence is a contradiction.

Give way to the airplane on 45
also give way to the airplane on downwind

So the airplane on the 45 has to give way to downwind, and the airplane on downwind has to give way to the 45?

Not sure why they just don't recommend entering an upwind.
 
EdFred said:
That highlighted sentence is a contradiction.

Give way to the airplane on 45
also give way to the airplane on downwind

So the airplane on the 45 has to give way to downwind, and the airplane on downwind has to give way to the 45?
Click to expand...

Ed Ed Ed, read it! Give way to aircraft on the PREFERRED 45* entry.
 
How about instead of everyone insisting on using their right of way, we all be civil and courteous to each other? My sailboat has right of way over a large tanker ship, but I'm not about to try to affirm that on the high seas.

I have often yielded right of way to others even though I technically had right of way. I also will stop and hold the door open for a person walking up behind me going into a building. Its just courtesy.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Ed Ed Ed, read it! Give way to aircraft on the PREFERRED 45* entry.
Click to expand...

Yeah. It's a separate paragraph, meaning a completely independent statement. The paragraph says give way to the 45. So if downwind, you give way to the 45. But if you're on the 45 it also says give way to the downwind. Either way it's in violation of the regulations.
91.126 and 91.113
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yet another entry in the FAA "opposite day" file.
Regulations say "A", other documentation says "B". Which do you get busted for?
Click to expand...

Dunno? But the AFH way is the common sense way to do it. Just like merging on the interstate, if you can safely merge ahead of the car on the highway, do it. If there's a conflict, slow down and merge behind the car on the highway.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah. It's a separate paragraph, meaning a completely independent statement. The paragraph says give way to the 45. So if downwind, you give way to the 45. But if you're on the 45 it also says give way to the downwind.
Click to expand...

How I take it:

  1. If you're on the preferred 45* entry, you must yield to traffic on the downwind. Full stop.
  2. If you're on the alternate 45* entry, not only must you yield to traffic on the downwind, you also must yield to traffic on the preferred 45* entry.
Is it really more complex than this???
 
Bill Jennings said:
Dunno? But the AFH way is the common sense way to do it. Just like merging on the interstate, if you can safely merge ahead of the car on the highway, do it. If there's a conflict, slow down and merge behind the car on the highway.
Click to expand...

No, the common sense way to do it would be to come in at a corner without any turns. If on the "wrong" side, enter at the upwind/crosswind cor If on the downwind side enter straight in at the crosswind/downwind corner or straight into base at the base/downwind corner.
 
Bill Jennings said:
How I take it:

  1. If you're on the preferred 45* entry, you must yield to traffic on the downwind. Full stop.
  2. If you're on the alternate 45* entry, not only must you yield to traffic on the downwind, you also must yield to traffic on the preferred 45* entry.
Is it really more complex than this???
Click to expand...

But that's a suggestion, and not a regulation. 91.113 by regulation says give way to the airplane to the right (the one on the 45) and 91.126 says no right turns in the vicinity when approaching to land.
 
EdFred said:
No, the common sense way to do it would be to come in at a corner without any turns. If on the "wrong" side, enter at the upwind/crosswind corner. If on the downwind side enter straight in at the crosswind/downwind corner or the base/downwind corner.
Click to expand...

How I actually prefer to do it is exactly as you say above. If on the downwind side I like to enter at the crosswind/downwind corner. If on the upwind side I enter at the upwind/crosswind corner and then turn downwind. So sue me!
 
EdFred said:
It's one of my many issues with


Don't forget 91.126
Click to expand...

Ok. Lets give 91.126 a place at the table. Please tell me that you are not trying to say the standard 45 degree entry traffic pattern is illegal and should be abolished because it requires a turn in the other direction. Nah, you ain't that dumb. You're just looking for a little sumpin to go along with that bag of popcorn. Here

shopping
 
luvflyin said:
Ok. Lets give 91.126 a place at the table. Please tell me that you are not trying to say the standard 45 degree entry traffic pattern is illegal and should be abolished because it requires a turn in the other direction. Nah, you ain't that dumb. You're just looking for a little sumpin to go along with that bag of popcorn. Here

shopping
Click to expand...

I *AM* saying it is in violation of 91.126 and it should be gotten rid of. It's an opposite direction turn. How is a right turn a left turn? Plus anyone on downwind now has to vacate the pattern by turning.....RIGHT... to avoid the airplane on 45. 91.113
 
asicer said:
I'll hit the brakes. He'll fly right by.
Click to expand...

Yeah, unless there is some kind of performance disparity that dictates otherwise, blue follows orange. Yeah, orange probably should not have created the situation. Don't change what should be done about it though. @EdFred , did this happen? Were they both on CTAF? Where they chattin with each other about it?
 
EdFred said:
I *AM* saying it is in violation of 91.126 and it should be gotten rid of. It's an opposite direction turn. How is a right turn a left turn? Plus anyone on downwind now has to vacate the pattern by turning.....RIGHT... to avoid the airplane on 45. 91.113
Click to expand...

Yup, it's a poorly worded FAR. I agree.
 
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