Which Airplane Has The Right Of Way?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by EdFred, Oct 8, 2019.

?

Which airplane has the right of way?

  1. Blue

  2. Orange

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  1. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    What are you smoking? What reg says the guy on downwind has to vacate by turning right? they're not approaching head-on, and he's not overtaking the guy on the 45.

    Also, if you're going to claim the regs are ridiculous, use the actual verbiage of the reg...there's nothing that says "no right turns in the vicinity".
     
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  2. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thank you.

    Here's a poll: which pilot ends up dead if they demand the other avoids them due to a conflict of regulations? Blue? Orange?

    And what do you get when you mix blue and orange: brown, which is poetic considering some arguments.
     
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  3. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    91.126
    (a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section.

    (b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

    (1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

    91.113
    (b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.

    Both planes are approaching to land, so 91.126 applies.

    Blue can't go in front of, above, or below orange. Only one option left according to 91.113 That requires a right turn, which is in violation of 91.126. Unless he spins a left turn over the runway and into departing traffic.
     
  4. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    If the pilots in the example had been paying attention the scenario wouldn't happen. The moral of the story? Pay attention.
     
  5. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You're cherry picking. We don't just fly under the law, but also Counsel opinion, court rulings, etc. The FAA has already settled this argument, you just don't like the FAA answer.
     
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  6. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Actually if you read the opinion THEY misquoted 91.126 in defense of their inane suggestion of the 45. Of course the dumbass who signed it is also the same one that says reimbursement for flight expenses related to business travel requires a commercial certificate.

    I'm not the one cherry picking. The FAA is.
     
  7. Weekend Warrior

    Weekend Warrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Kinda proving my point.
     
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  8. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    The Bonanza, unless the other airplane is a Cirrus.
     
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  9. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Ok so we agree the FAA doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground and also doesn't know how to read and correctly apply their own regulations.

    If you're going to make exceptions to regulations write them as regulations.
     
  10. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The one that said "any traffic in the pattern please advise"? :D

    Or maybe the one that did the overhead break....
     
  11. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Well it depends. Which plane is a Cirrus:p
     
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  12. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's how I interpret the notes, except the depiction of the alternate entry looks to me like a midfield-crosswind entry, not an alternate-45* entry.
     
  13. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    Skylane 02H is on a 27 mile final for runway 18
     
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  14. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Excellent!!
     
  15. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Especially if coming in from the south.
     
  16. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Oops, didn't realize there was a diagram when I voted. Red right fright. Orange has the ROW.
     
  17. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Line Up and Wait

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    I AM the blue pilot in the scenario, I was paying attention, and did have to break off to the right because the orange plane made only one call as she got within a mile or so of the field. I had been making calls since 10 miles out announcing my intentions to enter on a left downwind at tpa by the typical left crosswind/downind corner. She either ignored my calls or didn't understand my location. I saw her on the fishfinder 5 miles out, so a situation never developed... I jist broke off to the right when it became obvious she wasn't going to alter her course and we were on course to occupy the same space.
    I appreciate Ed posting this thread. I was curious about this myself.
     
  18. PtownDreamer

    PtownDreamer Filing Flight Plan

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    Well, I know my opinion doesn't count since I am not a pilot.....YET.
    But it would make the most sense to me that the plane that is already IN the pattern (Blue) would have priority (or ROW) over a plane that has not even entered the pattern yet.
    I say that because if the plane is already in the pattern, they have already begun to lower gear, flaps, mixture and so on in PREP for the landing, the plane not in the landing has not begun that yet.
    And I guess the final determination would be if I thought the "other" plane driver had a bigger firearm than me, LOL
    But like I said, I ain't a pilot, I just play one in my dreams!!!
     
  19. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    According to the AIM (as has been pointed out), that is correct.
    According to the FAA regulations, that is not correct.

    Whichever way you choose, you are wrong.
     
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  20. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    When in doubt, fall back upon 91.3:

    (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

    EACH pilot, blue AND orange, is responsible for the safety of his craft, and if either one has any doubt about maintaining safe separation, he is obligated to maneuver as necessary to avoid collision regardless of arguments about right-of-way and preferred pattern entries. In this example, I would not be surprised to see both pilots maneuver to avoid. Certainly it would be foolish for either pilot to continue expecting the other plane to avoid him right up to the point of impact.
     
  21. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Line Up and Wait

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    Egg Zachary.
     
  22. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The one on the right.

    That said, seldom someone finds solace in enforcing right of way.
     
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  23. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    With regards to right turns, I’ve found at least three Chief counsel opinions which state that right turns into the pattern are fine because they are how we do it. One would find it very difficult to enter the traffic pattern from the 45 without making a right turn. The most recent (Murphy 2015) states:

    This is the equivalent of a Chief Counsel smack down to say “enough already, stop asking stupid questions.” The right turn question is unequivocally answered in the Gossman opinion. Your personal views on McPherson are not relevant.

    Additionally, many of the letters state that the FAA does not regulate pattern entry.

    Murphy (2015) (refers to)
    Krug (2014)
    Gossman (2011)

    As to who has right of way, my answer is usually the other guy. Downwind yields to traffic on the right, there is no “merge” clause anywhere. But right of way rules should never be used to justify unsafe operations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
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  24. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    This common sense answer can be learned at any four way stop sign in any city.
     
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  25. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, those letters are just the FAA refusing to admit they made a mistake and doubling down because they won't admit they were wrong in their initial suggestion. Then they go one further and say yeah the plane on the left has the right of way even though the regulations say otherwise. They should all be shot.
     
  26. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yesterday, in the grocery store, I had a head on encounter with another shopper. I maneuvered to the right, she maneuvered to the left - still head on. I went left, she went right, rinse and repeat.
    It was funny.
    In the pattern entry example, it would not be funny if each pilot correctly (based on FAA documentation) assumed the other had the right of way (regulation: Pilot on 45, AIM: Pilot on downwind) and tried to maneuver to go behind the other. Not funny at all.
    That's why rules for "right of way" were invented. To provide clear expectations and prevent collisions. It doesn't work when the regulatory agency contradicts itself.
     
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  27. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    a
    If you have the right of way, you are the stand on vessel and should maintain your course, be predictable, give the give way vessel time to maneuver. This assumes you saw the conflicting aircraft in time and he sees you. If it starts looking like it is going to be unsafe, then maneuver.
     
  28. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    I've always thought in the situation where an aircraft is entering the pattern on the 45 and an aircraft is already in the pattern on the downwind, that the aircraft in the pattern first has the right of way. Are yowze guys telling me this is wrong?
     
  29. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The FAA contradicts itself, so the answer is, "Nobody knows."
     
  30. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Any particular letter?
     
  31. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Every single one that says go ahead and make right turns in the pattern even though the regs say left turns. But then they rule making a right turn to final results in certificate action.
     
  32. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    My opinion and based on the revised picture with the runway:

    Blue has the right of way since he is already established in the downwind. Orange needs to pay attention (provided that blue has announced his intentions) and enter the downwind behind blue. This has happened in a real scenario in which the pilot of a certain Lance (blue) was frightened momentarily by a certain Cherokee (orange) but quickly realized that orange was paying attention and announced the entry into said pattern to follow blue.

    blue - @Rgbeard
    orange - <---that guy
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  33. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    Blue airplane, established in the pattern. Orange airplane is a moron.
     
  34. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    According to the regulations, you are wrong. According to the AIM you are right.
     
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  35. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    Gee, wouldn't it be nice if airplanes could be equipped with some sort of device that would let pilots communicate with each other to sort these things out? Maybe someone could invent a device sorta like a telephone, except without wires.
     
  36. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Orange and Blue mixed together makes brown.

    Red and blue mixed together makes purple.

    Purple is the color that implies royalty. It implies wealth, luxury, extravagance and sophistication.

    Therefore the purple plane gets the right of way....
     
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  37. Half Fast

    Half Fast En-Route

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    Orange and blue implies U of F. Therefore, why should I give a damn what happens to 'em?
     
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  38. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer En-Route

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    Don't assume the other pilot knows the right-of-way rules.
     
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  39. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    FTFY :)
     
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  40. Clip4

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    Orange still has right of way.