When will we start seeing MOSAIC (Sport Aircraft 2.0) planes?

[pilotmichael]

The MOSAIC aircraft rule changes (Sport Aircraft 2.0/Part 22) don't go into effect until July 2026. I would assume we'll see a lot of announcements at Oshkosh '26 from various manufacturers, if not sooner. There is also some ASTM work to do which I assume is in full swing.

When do we think we'll see the first Sport Aircraft 2.0 deliveries from the major players? Could it be as soon as next summer when the rules take effect? Or do we think it might be a year after that?

I would suspect Van's for example will offer a Sport Aircraft 2.0 compliant turn-key aircraft soon. I also suspect Cirrus will do a "G8" of the 20, 22, or some sort of ASTM compliant hybrid with a new wing that qualifies under the clean stall 59 or dirty stall 61 rules. Are those aircraft going to be available as soon as a year from now or are we thinking a couple years still?

 

[Doc Holliday]

You still need the market of people willing to buy these aircraft.

 

[pilotmichael]

You still need the market of people willing to buy these aircraft.

Not necessarily my question here but I think that market already exists. I would argue that greater than 50% of these sales would be MOSAIC planes ones the rule takes effect.

 

[40YearDream]

My assumption is that there'll primarily be more demand (above that by smaller flight schools) for used 172s, now that sport pilots can fly them.

 

[Baked Potato]

You still need the market of people willing to buy these aircraft.

Seeing how we're all flying 50-year-old aircraft, and looking at the price of these aircraft on T-A-P, it seems like there is a pretty healthy market. How much longer can flight school fleets comprise planes that are half a century old?

 

[Doc Holliday]

Not necessarily my question here but I think that market already exists. I would argue that greater than 50% of these sales would be MOSAIC planes ones the rule takes effect.

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Then why didn't the LSA market take off as predicted?

 

[Baked Potato]

Then why didn't the LSA market take off as predicted?

1320 lbs restriction is pretty limiting. And the desirability of [non-Cub] two-seaters is a lot less.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Seeing how we're all flying 50-year-old aircraft, and looking at the price of these aircraft on T-A-P, it seems like there is a pretty healthy market. How much longer can flight school fleets comprise planes that are half a century old?

A healthy market requires buyers. If these new mosaic airplanes comes out for say $150k new, you will have people complaining of the cost.

 

[Doc Holliday]

1320 lbs restriction is pretty limiting. And the desirability of [non-Cub] two-seaters is a lot less.

But before the LSA hit, we saw prediction after prediction of how this was going to "revitalize" GA. It didn't.

 

[Baked Potato]

A healthy market requires buyers. If these new mosaic airplanes comes out for say $150k new, you will have people complaining of the cost.

I don't have optimism that they will be any cheaper than that. But compared to the price of a new 172, or a Cirrus, that still seems like a win in my book, no? MOSAIC planes are much more capable than LSAs.

 

[Baked Potato]

But before the LSA hit, we saw prediction after prediction of how this was going to "revitalize" GA. It didn't.

Not from me. These planes are quite limited in capability.

 

[DaleB]

My suspicion: Revised operating parameters for some existing airplanes will be first out of the gate. Think Carbon Cub with actual realistic limits for gross weight, cruise speed, etc. Then we'll see some existing Euro planes imported.

I don't think there will be any shortage of buyers. Take my next door neighbor as an example. He's working on his Private certificate, but looking to buy something that he can fly with SP privileges if and when he no longer wants to or can maintain a medical. His budget is in line with a lot of the newer planes. My former partner is similar - he's a SP and looking to partner with someone and buy a plane. These are guy for whom a 1970s or 80s vintage 172 or Cherokee with the accompanying operating and maintenance costs are simply not attractive.

Light Sport is close to an order of magnitude less expensive and less hassle. As an example - we're hip deep in our condition inspection right now. We're having the gearbox overhauled, replacing the nose gear leg (service bulletin on it), new parts here and there, having a cracked engine mount repaired, and so on. It's going to total over a grand, which is pretty expensive for one of our condition inspections but peanuts compared to what you could face for a 40-50 year old factory airplane. Once we're flying again our normal operating costs are about $36 per hour wet.

Then why didn't the LSA market take off as predicted?

Predictions were wrong? That's usually the cause of things not happening as predicted. There are quite a number of LSA designs available, especially if you include the E-LSA and the E-AB that meet LSA requirements. As far as "revitalizing GA", whatever that means, there are a lot of pilots flying now that wouldn't be flying without Light Sport, so maybe it's just slowing the decline. I don't know.

Nothing is going to magically create a big pile of airplanes selling for under $150K new. As has been noted, though, compared to buying a 172 or Archer at $400-700K new, $175-$250K looks pretty good.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I don't have optimism that they will be any cheaper than that. But compared to the price of a new 172, or a Cirrus, that still seems like a win in my book, no? MOSAIC planes are much more capable than LSAs.

Are you going to buy one when they become available? A new one.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Nothing is going to magically create a big pile of airplanes selling for under $150K new. As has been noted, though, compared to buying a 172 or Archer at $400-700K new, $175-$250K looks pretty good.

So you will be buying a new one once they come out?

 

[Baked Potato]

Are you going to buy one when they become available? A new one.

It may be a little out of my range, though maybe you can help me talk to the wife

Who is buying new 172s at three times that price? Someone is. What can a 172 do that a new MOSAIC plane won't?

 

[MauleSkinner]

What can a 172 do that a new MOSAIC plane won't?

Be produced without any additional FAA approval process (along with the added risk and expense to the manufacturer.)

 

[DaleB]

So you will be buying a new one once they come out?

No, but I won't buy any new airplane anywhere at any price. I have one and am building another. I personally know at least two people who probably will, though. Neither of them would even momentarily consider 2-3 times that cost for a Piper or Cessna, nor are they interested in shelling out for an existing older FAR 23 plane.

 

[Doc Holliday]

It may be a little out of my range, though maybe you can help me talk to the wife

Who is buying new 172s at three times that price? Someone is. What can a 172 do that a new MOSAIC plane won't?

Shouldn't the question be "So when these new mosaic airplanes come out, who is going to buy one?"

 

[Doc Holliday]

No, but I won't buy any new airplane anywhere at any price. I have one and am building another. I personally know at least two people who probably will, though.

And there ya go. Between "no way" and "probably" is way short of signing the buyers order.

 

[Baked Potato]

Shouldn't the question be "So when these new mosaic airplanes come out, who is going to buy one?"

My point was - new 172s are being bought by someone. And if I can get a plane with equal capability and capacity for less than half of the price, why wouldn't I?

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Other than Vans, I'm betting that most of the new aircraft offered come from existing designs from outside the US that easily meet the LSA design requirements.

 

[pilotmichael]

Be produced without any additional FAA approval process (along with the added risk and expense to the manufacturer.)

There is no more "FAA approval process". That's the beauty of this. Manufacturers will just declare conformance with the rules and ASTM. And you are missing the huge maintenance benefits that will come with a 172 being an Sport Aircraft 2.0 now. Look up the LSRM rules.

I think it's absurd to argue there is no market here, not that you've done that. It's probably already 80% of the new SEP/MEP market.

 

[Doc Holliday]

My point was - new 172s are being bought by someone. And if I can get a plane with equal capability and capacity for less than half of the price, why wouldn't I?

Flight schools are the primary buyer of new 172's.

 

[Bell206]

When do we think we'll see the first Sport Aircraft 2.0 deliveries from the major players?

I think you'll see a number of EASA LSA aircraft make the trip across the pond first before any new US based designs will be seen. However, I an aware of a couple MOSAIC LSA compliant rotorcraft that are currently being built in the US. But as mentioned, how the LSA market is affect by MOSAIC is still an unknown.

Predictions were wrong?

The numbers prior the LSA launch in 2004 were 15,000 to 20,000 LSA aircraft flying. I believe it never got over 9000 for any length of time. Has it been 15,000 there would have been a marked change in private GA based on what people were planning on. However, it didn't materialize and things stayed status quo at several levels.

 

[Baked Potato]

Flight schools are the primary buyer of new 172's.

Exactly my point.

I'm not completely sure though - is there anything in the MOSAIC rules preventing schools from using them to train PPL/commercial students? I don't think there is but correct me if I'm wrong. MOSAIC seems like a win-win for this scenario

 

[szwinger]

Are you going to buy one when they become available? A new one.

I might. For me I’d like a 160KTAS high wing 2 door aircraft with around 1,000lbs useful load. Technam has some pretty nice aircraft. Would they be cheaper as LSA? I’d sacrifice speed. I currently have an SR22. Cirrus parts and maintenance budget might come close to paying for an LSA (that’s an exaggeration of course).

 

[Doc Holliday]

I might. For me I’d like a 160KTAS high wing 2 door aircraft with around 1,000lbs useful load. Technam has some pretty nice aircraft. Would they be cheaper as LSA? I’d sacrifice speed. I currently have an SR22. Cirrus parts and maintenance budget might come close to paying for an LSA (that’s an exaggeration of course).

Did you buy your SR22 new?

 

[Ashara Keliyn]

My $75k budget was not nearly enough for anything decent, so when a friend of a friend called me and asked if I'd consider a partnership I said yes. His budget was similar so we started looking at around $150k, still really difficult to find something (of course with 2 people the scope narrows significantly, so that's partially to blame). However if there was a new 4 seater for $150k we would get it without hesitation.

 

[Bell206]

And you are missing the huge maintenance benefits that will come with a 172 being an Sport Aircraft 2.0 now. Look up the LSRM rules.

Except the 172 still requires an A&P/IA to be worked on. MOSAIC didn't expand any TC'd aircraft to fall under a LSRM certificate.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

There is no more "FAA approval process". That's the beauty of this. Manufacturers will just declare conformance with the rules and ASTM. And you are missing the huge maintenance benefits that will come with a 172 being an Sport Aircraft 2.0 now. Look up the LSRM rules.

I think it's absurd to argue there is no market here, not that you've done that. It's probably already 80% of the new SEP/MEP market.

Assuming C, P, or B bothers to go through another process & certify existing models under MOSAIC.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

However if there was a new 4 seater for $150k we would get it without hesitation.

Standard trainer S-LSA RV-12iSTs are going for around $190K.
I wouldn't expect to see too many 4-seat, larger engine aircraft for around $150K. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[WDD]

The old LSA's besides having speed and weight restrictions were, at least according to Paul B at AvWeb, had too light of a wing loading. Harder to handle on landing and take offs, which is where they had higher accidents vs certified planes.

I could see Vans coming out with an RV 22. A larger version of the RV 12, but could still be built faster than an RV 14.

 

[Ashara Keliyn]

Standard trainer S-LSA RV-12iSTs are going for around $190K.
I wouldn't expect to see too many 4-seat, larger engine aircraft for around $150K. I hope I'm wrong.

I hope so too, that's why we decided to wait for now.

 

[jbarrass]

Be produced without any additional FAA approval process (along with the added risk and expense to the manufacturer.)

New MOSAIC planes will not require additional FAA approvals. They will be built to ATSM standards.

 

[MauleSkinner]

There is no more "FAA approval process". That's the beauty of this. Manufacturers will just declare conformance with the rules and ASTM. And you are missing the huge maintenance benefits that will come with a 172 being an Sport Aircraft 2.0 now. Look up the LSRM rules.

So they just declare conformance, but don’t have to ensure that the design does conform?

How does MOSAIC change the maintenance on a legacy certification?

 

[MauleSkinner]

New MOSAIC planes will not require additional FAA approvals. They will be built to ATSM standards.

But there is still expense in ensuring and documenting those standards.

Free isn’t part of the process.

 

[szwinger]

Did you buy your SR22 new?

No. If I'm anticipating your next question properly my answer will be: "If a MOSAIC aircraft is more than $500,000 new I won't be a customer for that either"

 

[jbarrass]

So they just declare conformance, but don’t have to ensure that the design does conform?

??? well yes, they are declaring the plane is designed and built to conform with the Industry standards (ATSM)

How does MOSAIC change the maintenance on a legacy certification?

It does not change the maintenance on PART 23 or CAR3 aircraft at all.

Just LSA and Experimental.

 

[Dana]

How does MOSAIC change the maintenance on a legacy certification?

It doesn't.

 

[MauleSkinner]

??? well yes, they are declaring the plane is designed and built to conform with the Industry standards (ATSM)

I declare that am the best pilot in the whole wide world.

Wow! Works great!