When will Flight Schools begin offering Sport Pilot Training for their legacy MOSAIC aircraft?

It’s not how many there are now, it’s how many there are going to be.

You are welcome to train whoever you are qualified to train. I am not doing the drivers license thing.

Baloney. “The drivers license thing” has already proven itself safe and successful and you can offer nothing to counter it.

You really should surrender your medical. You’ve shown yourself to be irrational and paranoid. You certainly have no business training anyone.
 
Baloney. “The drivers license thing” has already proven itself safe and successful and you can offer nothing to counter it.

You really should surrender your medical. You’ve shown yourself to be irrational and paranoid. You certainly have no business

I am limiting my risks of lawsuits by limiting the logbooks my signature appears. There is nothing irrational about that. You are free to make your own choices.
 
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While MOSAIC passed last month, isn't the next step for the ASTM Committee to write the Standards (there are 276 of them) and submit to the FAA for approval? This process will likely take a year to accomplish. Once the Standards are approved, then aircraft manufacturers will have to submit one of each model for review to get approval to manufacture them as S-LSA aircraft.

So, if I'm accurate with the above, it may be a while before you can fly a 182 as a Sport Pilot...
 
A ‘meet the minimum’ time sport pilot can’t fly: anything over 87 KIAS
Not quite. Endorsements are needed for faster or slower. If a SP trains in an airplane faster than 87kts he's good for that, but needs an endorsement to fly a slower plane.
Hobby pilots are a very small minority
I wouldn't say "very small":

1756733715277.jpeg

None of this drivers license stuff is a good idea. If you can’t get a physician to certify you for basic med, you may have no business flying.
I haven't decided if you're trolling or clueless.
While MOSAIC passed last month, isn't the next step for the ASTM Committee to write the Standards (there are 276 of them) and submit to the FAA for approval? This process will likely take a year to accomplish. Once the Standards are approved, then aircraft manufacturers will have to submit one of each model for review to get approval to manufacture them as S-LSA aircraft.

So, if I'm accurate with the above, it may be a while before you can fly a 182 as a Sport Pilot...
The delay for ASTM standards applies to new LSA aircraft. Changes to what a SP may fly takes effect sooner.
 
If a SP trains in an airplane faster than 87kts he's good for that, but needs an endorsement to fly a slower plane.

Weird, huh? If a SP gets licensed in a 120 knot LSA, he can then fly it slower than 87 knots, but he can't jump into a plane that maxes at 87. It's not like there's a separate endorsement for slow flight.

I haven't decided if you're trolling or clueless.

If you'll review a few of his postings in other threads, that decision will become very easy.
 
The delay for ASTM standards applies to new LSA aircraft.

Then there are existing LSAs that are already approved for higher speeds and weights overseas. Merely updating limits might go rather quickly for those planes.
 
Then there are existing LSAs that are already approved for higher speeds and weights overseas. Merely updating limits might go rather quickly for those planes.
The ASTM standard itself hasn't been written yet. When it's finished, the FAA will adopt it July 2026. Perhaps what you mean to say is that hopefully the manufacturers of these existing planes already have testing data that shows compliance with the standard and only need to supply a statement of conformance.
 
It's been said above, but it would be great if people would stop conflating Light Sport aircraft with Sport Pilots.

The pilot rules are ready to go and on October 22 Sport Pilots and Private/Com/ATP pilots exercising SP privileges and limitations can hop in a lot more planes and fly!

Same with the new privileges and limitations for those with a repairman certificate (light-sport) (Was called LSRM).

The rules for Light Sport aircraft take effect July 22, 2026. The actual changes to the ATSM standards are not overwhelming and the current Manufactures will be ready to go on that date. For example, expect the current LSA with a higher weight limit overseas get that weight here. I fully expect the current companies building LSA will very likely have offerings ready to go first. I don't expect brand C or P to have much to offer as long as the fleets keep buying the legacy aircraft.

But yeah, nobody knows for sure, but I'm very optimistic.
 
The ASTM standard itself hasn't been written yet. When it's finished, the FAA will adopt it July 2026. Perhaps what you mean to say is that hopefully the manufacturers of these existing planes already have testing data that shows compliance with the standard and only need to supply a statement of conformance.
??? The ATSM standards exist, they just need to be modified. Not a heavy lift.
 
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Not quite. Endorsements are needed for faster or slower. If a SP trains in an airplane faster than 87kts he's good for that, but needs an endorsement to fly a slower
Yes, correct.

Was trying to read into what the objection could be and given the comments about managing the blazing speed of a 172, I figured the OP assumed that someone training for SP was doing so in an ultralight flying at 60 KIAS.
 
Weird, huh? If a SP gets licensed in a 120 knot LSA, he can then fly it slower than 87 knots, but he can't jump into a plane that maxes at 87. It's not like there's a separate endorsement for slow flight.
It makes sense, though. A lot of ultralights have been wrecked by pilots of faster planes who aren't prepared for a low speed low mass high drag plane.
Was trying to read into what the objection could be and given the comments about managing the blazing speed of a 172, I figured the OP assumed that someone training for SP was doing so in an ultralight flying at 60 KIAS.
I think that's what the FAA originally thought, too... but from what I've seen most seem to be training in Cubs and similar aircraft. Going forward it will be 150s and 172s.
 
Not quite. Endorsements are needed for faster or slower. If a SP trains in an airplane faster than 87kts he's good for that, but needs an endorsement to fly a slower plane.

I wouldn't say "very small":

View attachment 144673


I haven't decided if you're trolling or clueless.

The delay for ASTM standards applies to new LSA aircraft. Changes to what a SP may fly takes effect sooner.
I am not trolling or clueless. There needs to be a medical standard beyond you got a drivers license don’t you. Let’s take 1 simple standard - eye sight. The standard to drive a car and what a pilot needs to avoid mid air collisions isn’t the same. Yet some people think if your vision is good enough to read road signs and not run over pedestrians you are good to fly airplanes and now we are going to let you fly even faster airplanes.

Today the expiration of many drivers licenses are 8 years. Arizona only requires a photo update to a drivers license every 12 years, The idea that a drivers license represents a medical standard is hogwash. At best, it just means you haven’t been convicted of drunk driving recently.
 
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Remember that very many of us are (were) advocates for Basic Med being expanded but without the previous-FAA-medical requirement. To me it would have made sense to require Basic Med for sport pilots assuming that they completely divorced it from the FAA medical labyrinth. They chose not to go that route.
 
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I am not trolling or clueless. There needs to be a medical standard beyond you got a drivers license don’t you. Let’s take 1 simple standard - eye sight. The standard to drive a car and what a pilot needs to avoid mid air collisions isn’t the same. Yet some people think if your vision is good enough to read road signs and not run over pedestrians you are good to fly airplanes and now we are going to let you fly even faster airplanes.

Today the expiration of many drivers licenses are 8 years. Arizona only requires a photo update to a drivers license every 12 years, The idea that a drivers license represents a medical standard is hogwash. At best, it just means you haven’t been convicted of drunk driving recently.
FWIW, the FAA requirement for 3rd class is 20/40. In VA, the D/L requirement is…..wait for it……20/40.

D/L Medicals are proven to work.
 
There is.
Thats not a medical standard.

To meet Florida's standard for a driver's license, you need a visual acuity of 20/70 or better in either eye or both eyes with or without corrective lens. This means you have to be at 20 feet to see what other people can see at 70 feet.

The class 3 standard is distant acuity 20/40 or better.

You can avoid what you can’t see. As more people start flying under the DL provision, expect more pilots who simply are not seeing you in the VFR world of see and avoid.
 
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And like I said earlier, if you need a physician to tell you you’re healthy, you may not have any business flying an airplane.
You don’t need to be healthy, but you can’t be too unhealthy. And yes, some people need a doctor to tell them that.
 
I have not seen any accident statistics where the cause was a medical incident or impairment that show the difference in rates between those pilots with either Class 1, 2, 3, Basic Med or none. I can be enlightened.

If one thinks that MOSAIC is introducing a heretofore unknown new risk, such a statistic would be valuable. Hand wringing and Arm Waving are not data.
 
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Hmmmmm, this is a good question...

Why not put this to the acid test and ask a few schools or a few of our resident CFIs if they would consider this curriculum/training?

In looking at the requirement, we all know that getting to solo under the minimum time requirements ain't happening.. And at that point, we could go for the whole enchilada and get the private rating.

Another question: Is there anyone here who operates as a sport pilot? If so, what was your reasoning for stopping there, not including "lacka funda.."
 
Another question: Is there anyone here who operates as a sport pilot? If so, what was your reasoning for stopping there, not including "lacka funda.."
There is very little personal flying that I’ve done over the last 40-some years that I couldn’t have done under the MOSAIC rules if they had existed. If this had existed 45 years ago, I’d have gone Light Sport and stopped there unless or until I decided to make my living flying.
 
Hand-wringing about medical requirements, or lack thereof, aside: lots of people have been flying under SP privileges for over 20 years, as has been repeatedly noted. The actual experience and evidence over that time has been enough to convince even the FAA that it’s OK to expand the envelope of aircraft they’re allowed to fly.

The number of Sport Pilot certificates issued is, I think, dwarfed by the number of non-SP certificate holders flying with no medical under SP rules. That number includes myself, as well as at least another half dozen or more just that I personally know. Some just don’t want the hassle (and the dice roll) of getting a medical for the day VFR pleasure flying they do. Some (like me) are unable to get a medical or SI due to some event., so Basic Med is out. Apparently we’re not falling out of the sky more often than the steely-eyed legends who have medical certificates… for now.

As a side note, numerous insurers have absolutely no problem insuring light-sport planes and pilots flying legally without medical certificates. We pay under $2K for four named pilots, none of whom are required to keep medical certs (though a couple do), including liability and hull insurance.

So… if you are a CFI and refuse to train Sport Pilots, that’s certainly your prerogative. You do you. As soon as I get our LSA back flying after its condition inspection (which I’m {gasp} doing under the authority of my LSR-I certificate) I plan to start working toward my SFI-S cert.
 
@Clip4, how long will you continue to ignore the fact that for the past 20 years many thousands of pilots, both Sport Pilots and higher rated pilots "exercising sport pilot privileges" have been flying with a DL medical and there has been no increase in medical related accidents.

Is there anyone here who operates as a sport pilot? If so, what was your reasoning for stopping there, not including "lacka funda.."

I'm a PP operating as a SP (SP didn't exist when I learned to fly). I would need a special issuance to get a medical. I'm confident I could get one, my doctors agree, but I'm unwilling to spend the thousands of dollars and time for medically unnecessary tests that the FAA would require to "prove" it to them.
 
Another question: Is there anyone here who operates as a sport pilot? If so, what was your reasoning for stopping there, not including "lacka funda.."

Well, not a 100% answer to your question, but I operated as a SP for a while. Got my SP ticket in 2017, PP in 2019. Had MOSAIC existed at the time, I probably would have stopped at SP, but I wanted a more capable aircraft, one that had plenty of luggage space and better handling in windy conditions.

To get my SI medical required significant expense for tests, medical records, and letters from several doctors, plus a flight to Illinois to visit Bruce. Submitting 400 pages of records + 3 months waiting got me a class 3, and I immediately went to Basic Med. None of that crap made me any healthier than I was as a SP, so the class 3 did not in any way change the likelihood of medical incapacitation.

If MOSAIC had existed back in 2019, I very likely would have stopped at SP, and my reasoning would have been "It's all I need for the type of flying I intend to do."

MOSAIC might increase the number of SPs, but I suspect it won't make much impact on the total number of new pilots. Rather, some students will stop at SP who previously would have continued to PP, because they will consider SP to be sufficient. It's a guess, but I imagine many of those will be older students, people approaching retirement or already retired, whose kids are grown, mortgage paid off, etc., and who might have some hassle getting a medical. Such students won't be looking for a new career, and instead will just be looking for a fun hobby and to load up spouse and luggage for an occasional trip. SP plus a 172 or Cherokee (or even an older Bo) might be just the ticket.
 
@Clip4, how long will you continue to ignore the fact that for the past 20 years many thousands of pilots, both Sport Pilots and higher rated pilots "exercising sport pilot privileges" have been flying with a DL medical and there has been no increase in medical related accidents.



I'm a PP operating as a SP (SP didn't exist when I learned to fly). I would need a special issuance to get a medical. I'm confident I could get one, my doctors agree, but I'm unwilling to spend the thousands of dollars and time for medically unnecessary tests that the FAA would require to "prove" it to them.
I am sorry you have to spend thousands of dollars to get the SI. The guy walking into a flight school with the same untreated medical condition is going to be flying with us. Some think that’s cool, I don’t.
 
I am sorry you have to spend thousands of dollars to get the SI. The guy walking into a flight school with the same untreated medical condition is going to be flying with us. Some think that’s cool, I don’t.


And that guy has already been able to walk into a flight school, get training, and fly anywhere in the US for the past 20 years. Can you present any evidence that it has caused a problem?
 
And that guy has already been able to walk into a flight school, get training, and fly anywhere in the US for the past 20 years. Can you present any evidence that it has caused a problem?
Don’t be silly. Obviously the same medical issue is much safer because of a piece of paper from the government. :rolleyes:
 
how long will you continue to ignore the fact that for the past 20 years many thousands of pilots, both Sport Pilots and higher rated pilots "exercising sport pilot privileges" have been flying with a DL medical and there has been no increase in medical related accidents
It seems that for some people this takes on the mantle of an ideological debate. Belief usurps facts, and like most zealots there’s the conviction that all of the rules MUST be followed to the letter… except those pesky ones they don’t agree with, because after all they know what’s best for us all.

Fortunately two facts remain. First, the FAA makes the rules we have to follow, not them; second, they don’t have to fly with us. It really doesn’t matter if they ever accept the facts or not.
 
And that guy has already been able to walk into a flight school, get training, and fly anywhere in the US for the past 20 years. Can you present any evidence that it has caused a problem?
So you think I am supposed to prove the effects of a recent change to the regulations by examining the past 20 years when the regulation was different? I am good dude, but not that good. It’s likely to take a decade until there is measurable results the FAA would evaluate concerning this change. The insurance companies look at a different accident horizon.
 
So in the last 5 years about 100 new SP per year were added to the roles.

I don't think that adding more airplanes to fly is a selling point. Flying, even in VFR, can be an incredibly stressful 'hobby' and to modestly trained and dubiously healthy pilots at the controls doesn't sound like an answer to a question anyone has been asking.

Flight training must include at least:
  • 2 hours cross-country flight training.
  • 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop.
  • One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance with a full-stop landing at a minimum of two points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between takeoff and landing locations.
So a 30-45 minute XC is all it takes and they have the ADM to plan an execute an XC? My first serious XC after PPL was 1500nm with a 2 diversions for clouds.

25 miles straight line flight is Cessna 172 @ 115kts is ~ 2kts per min. That's a 30min flight!

The barrier to PPL isn't cost, its GARBAGE CFIs. Scrap this SP nonsense, develop CFIs into competent instructors and you'll lower the PPL fail out rate from 80% to some lower number.

The barrier to PPL is high, because its hard to fly an airplane safety. I dread the day the pattern is full of 20 hour wonders still trying to figure it out.

Seriously, what problem is SP trying to fix??
 
develop CFIs into competent instructors
How do you propose doing that?
I dread the day the pattern is full of 20 hour wonders still trying to figure it out.
The pattern is full of 10-hour wonders trying to figure it out now, so 20 seems like an improvement.
 
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So you think I am supposed to prove the effects of a recent change to the regulations by examining the past 20 years when the regulation was different? I am good dude, but not that good. It’s likely to take a decade until there is measurable results the FAA would evaluate concerning this change. The insurance companies look at a different accident horizon.
The medical aspect of the regulations hasn't changed with MOSAIC; only the type of airplanes a SP can fly has been expanded. If Cubs and other LSAs haven't been falling out of the sky for the past 20 years because their DL-medical pilots have a health issue, there's no more likelihood that 172s and Bonanzas will now. So please give it a rest.

Now, you're you're talking about a 20 hour SP jumping in a heavier and faster plane and killing himself, that's a more valid concern. All I can say is, "we'll see," and point out that almost nobody, SP or PP, gets their certificate in the minimum hours. There will be, for sure, a few new SPs with more money than brains buying a fast airplane and screwing it up, but that's nothing new. But for most, renters and insurance companies will keep it from happening by requiring transition training.
 
almost nobody, SP or PP, gets their certificate in the minimum hours
That's something that many critics seem to forget.

Also how many schools/CFIs are SP only, or even majority SP? At mine, for example, I was the only sport student for a lot of the time despite fact that they had two LSA for a while. I didn't have a separate curriculum and am basically doing the same training as PPL students, save for some night flying perhaps. No way I'd have been able to get my ticket at 20 hours.
 
And like I said earlier, if you need a physician to tell you you’re healthy, you may not have any business flying an airplane.
The FAA says we all need physicians to tell us we're healthy, so I take your hyperbolic drivel with a grain of salt.
 
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