When will Flight Schools begin offering Sport Pilot Training for their legacy MOSAIC aircraft?

N918KT

N918KT

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Just curious to know that for flight schools that have legacy Cessnas, Pipers, etc, and currently offer Private or higher certificates, how soon would you think (or if) those schools would start offering Sport Pilot certificates? Would the sport certificate start to become a bit more popular now once MOSAIC sport pilot rules go into effect in October?

I got a feeling some schools with legacy aircraft may get calls from prospective students who may be interested in going for sport rather than private.
 
N918KT said:
I got a feeling some schools with legacy aircraft may get calls from prospective students who may be interested in going for sport rather than private.
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And when that starts happening is when they'll start offering it. I can't think of any reason for them not to, unless insurance is higher due student solos without a medical.
 
I don't see sport pilot being anything other than niche.

Most schools will cater to those with airline aspirations
 
Local Aero Club, which has a LOT of members, is sort of running around in circles about Sport Pilots and those who have higher Certificates who exercise SP Privileges. The Elephant in the room is Insurance. Right now they will not accept any SP type operation, MOSAIC or not, until this gets sorted.
 
X3 Skier said:
Local Aero Club, which has a LOT of members, is sort of running around in circles about Sport Pilots and those who have higher Certificates who exercise SP Privileges. The Elephant in the room is Insurance. Right now they will not accept any SP type operation, MOSAIC or not, until this gets sorted.
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Yea, I asked this same question to another pilot friend of mine the other day, he basically said the same thing. Insurance will be the main issue.
 
Racerx said:
I don't see sport pilot being anything other than niche.

Most schools will cater to those with airline aspirations
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The limitations pre-MOSAIC kept it Niche. Regulations that allow for a Cessna 182 for a sport pilot will change that more than likely.
 
X3 Skier said:
Local Aero Club, which has a LOT of members, is sort of running around in circles about Sport Pilots and those who have higher Certificates who exercise SP Privileges. The Elephant in the room is Insurance. Right now they will not accept any SP type operation, MOSAIC or not, until this gets sorted.
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Same hand-wringing as when BasicMed came out. Seems to me like they could just call their broker and find out, easy-peasy.
 
N918KT said:
Just curious to know that for flight schools that have legacy Cessnas, Pipers, etc, and currently offer Private or higher certificates, how soon would you think (or if) those schools would start offering Sport Pilot certificates? Would the sport certificate start to become a bit more popular now once MOSAIC sport pilot rules go into effect in October?

I got a feeling some schools with legacy aircraft may get calls from prospective students who may be interested in going for sport rather than private.
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Thank you for your inquiry, we don’t provide training for recreational or LS certificates. but there may be other schools in the area that meet your requirements.
 
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jbarrass said:
Same hand-wringing as when BasicMed came out. Seems to me like they could just call their broker and find out, easy-peasy.
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Seems to me the club should first have a candid discussion and a vote to determine if they want to allow sport pilots before someone is calling the broker.

Most clubs today don’t allow recreational pilots, I can’t see how LS is different other than even lower training and medical requirements.
 
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jbarrass said:
Same hand-wringing as when BasicMed came out. Seems to me like they could just call their broker and find out, easy-peasy.
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Right now, our non-commercial club insurer has not changed the requirement for us that members need a private or higher and valid BasicMed or Class 3 or higher for coverage to be in effect. We renewed in August under those terms.
 
I’m not sure I’ve seen anything on how the insurance companies will handle the expanded privileges. I will guess it won’t be too different than we see now with requirements for checkout and proficiency reviews. And/or the insurance price will be so eye watering it will preclude someone flying the bigger planes - just like now for more complex planes.
 
N918KT said:
Yea, I asked this same question to another pilot friend of mine the other day, he basically said the same thing. Insurance will be the main issue.
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I keep hearing this, but AFAIK insurance hasn’t been a significant issue for SPs in the past, so why would it be now? Just because a SP can now fly a 172, which is easier to fly and land than an LSA?
 
If the airplane is light sport eligble, then they can do it as soon as a student asks. "Hey, I want to get my certificate, but let's go with just sport right now. Good?"

Except for the one school that is turning away students, they're all going to say yes.
 
bonefishpete said:
I would say 95% of my sons flight training school pilots have airline aspirations.
Then again 85% were foreign students.
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Yes, there are puppy-mill schools where everyone wants to be airline pilots. But most pilots don't go to them and most pilots don't want to be airline pilots.
 
If there's money to be made teaching or renting to sport pilots, schools will find a way to do it.

I don't have it in front of my, but my policy says something to the effect of "pilot must have any required medical certificate." Since no medical is required for my plane, I'm good. In the "date of last medical" space on the insurance application, I just put N/A; they've never questioned it.
 
Clip4 said:
Most clubs today don’t allow recreational pilots…
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I don’t understand. Is this the same as saying don’t allow pilots with only Private cert? Most clubs I know are mostly recreational pilots.
 
I think expanding sport private privileges could become a bit of a sticky situation for clubs that allow sport pilot certificate in 4 seat planes.

With more seats available what's stopping sport pilot from breaking rules and using the seats that are available. Then in the event something happens with those seats filled, insurance is gonna walk away

I'm moderately surprised an stc wasn't required for the plane to remove 2 seats to be operated under light sport. Sort of like the pa 32 needing an stc to remove the 7th seat to be operated under basic med.
 

Initial Fix said:
I’m not sure I’ve seen anything on how the insurance companies will handle the expanded privileges. I will guess it won’t be too different than we see now with requirements for checkout and proficiency reviews. And/or the insurance price will be so eye watering it will preclude someone flying the bigger planes - just like now for more complex planes.
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From an insurance risk perspective, a spanking new LS pilot has unlimited XC privileges, less XC training and experience, less solo experience, no emergency instrument training and maybe zero time in a faster / heavier aircraft.

If an insurer opted to write clubs to allow LS pilots, an additional rider requiring more flight time and minimum hours of dual instruction in make and model would be prudent.

A club would also be prudent to make these restrictions if their insurer doesn’t.
 
Clip4 said:
From an insurance risk perspective, a spanking new LS pilot has unlimited XC privileges, less XC training and experience, less solo experience, no emergency instrument training and maybe zero time in a faster / heavier aircraft.

If an insurer opted to write clubs to allow LS pilots, an additional rider requiring more flight time and minimum hours of dual instruction in make and model would be prudent.

A club would also be prudent to make these restrictions if their insurer doesn’t.
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A SP does have emergency instrument training. It’s required for all student pilots, including Sport, prior to solo XC (with the sole exception of planes slower than 87 knots). SPs have held XC privileges since the beginning. Further, most LSAs are more challenging to fly and land that 172s and Cherokees due to the lighter wing loading.

SPs haven’t been falling out of the sky, so I don’t know why you’re so concerned they will be so dangerous at the controls of a Cherokee.

I’m sure insurance company’s will require some dual for a pilot moving into a different aircraft, just as they’ve been doing all along. No big deal.

You give the impression that you don’t really know very much about SPs. Why don’t you try learning a bit about it before proclaiming the sky to be falling?
 
Half Fast said:
A SP does have emergency instrument training. It’s required for all student pilots, including Sport, prior to solo XC (with the sole exception of planes slower than 87 knots). SPs have held XC privileges since the beginning. Further, most LSAs are more challenging to fly and land that 172s and Cherokees due to the lighter wing loading.

SPs haven’t been falling out of the sky, so I don’t know why you’re so concerned they will be so dangerous at the controls of a Cherokee.

I’m sure insurance company’s will require some dual for a pilot moving into a different aircraft, just as they’ve been doing all along. No big deal.

You give the impression that you don’t really know very much about SPs. Why don’t you try learning a bit about it
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I feel a lot better now that you pointed out a light sport student is going to have .2 instrument time during their training for XC privileges under 61.93.
 
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Clip4 said:
I feel a lot better now that you pointed out a light sport student is going to have .2 instrument time during their training for XC privileges under 61.93.
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Good. My lifetime stretch goal is to ease your worries.
 
Clip4 said:
I feel a lot better now that you pointed out a light sport student is going to have .2 instrument time during their training for XC privileges under 61.93.
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It might even make pilots safer... just enough to demonstrate that VFR into IMC is a really bad idea, rather than lulling the student into a false sense of security thinking he's competent enough to get out.
 
Clip4 said:
I feel a lot better now that you pointed out a light sport student is going to have .2 instrument time during their training for XC privileges under 61.93.
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Maybe if you based your comments on facts instead of feelings, you would wind up in a different place.

A ‘meet the minimum’ time sport pilot can’t fly: anything over 87 KIAS, nor could they fly to or through a B,C,D airspace or airport, or a retract, or a cs prop, or at night. To do any of those things, they require additional training and endorsement.

To do the type of flying you ‘feel’ so worried about, that Sport Pilot would have completed flight training substantially similar or greater than a PPL, in aircraft that are more difficult to fly, and have passed a more extensive check ride. Yep - a SPL has the same checkride requirements as PPL plus some.

Your assertion that those pilots are somehow ‘less than’ is simply not true. Why do they do SPL vs PPL? The medical.
 
Learnin’ to fly… said:
Maybe if you based your comments on facts instead of feelings, you would wind up in a different place.

A ‘meet the minimum’ time sport pilot can’t fly: anything over 87 KIAS, nor could they fly to or through a B,C,D airspace or airport, or a retract, or a cs prop, or at night. To do any of those things, they require additional training and endorsement.

To do the type of flying you ‘feel’ so worried about, that Sport Pilot would have completed flight training substantially similar or greater than a PPL, in aircraft that are more difficult to fly, and have passed a more extensive check ride. Yep - a SPL has the same checkride requirements as PPL plus some.

Your assertion that those pilots are somehow ‘less than’ is simply not true. Why do they do SPL vs PPL? The medical.
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:yeahthat:

I only regret that I have but one like I can give for your post.
 
Learnin’ to fly… said:
Maybe if you based your comments on facts instead of feelings, you would wind up in a different place.

A ‘meet the minimum’ time sport pilot can’t fly: anything over 87 KIAS, nor could they fly to or through a B,C,D airspace or airport, or a retract, or a cs prop, or at night. To do any of those things, they require additional training and endorsement.

To do the type of flying you ‘feel’ so worried about, that Sport Pilot would have completed flight training substantially similar or greater than a PPL, in aircraft that are more difficult to fly, and have passed a more extensive check ride. Yep - a SPL has the same checkride requirements as PPL plus some.

Your assertion that those pilots are somehow ‘less than’ is simply not true. Why do they do SPL vs PPL? The medical.
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I feeL so much better knowing a people with DUIs or a Schedule 1 drug conviction have the chance to fly 172s.

My 90 year old mother has a drivers license, but I don’t know many who would argue she is medically fit to fly and airplane.
 
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Clip4 said:
My 90 year old mother has a drivers license, but I don’t know many who would argue she is medically fit to fly and airplane.
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Would she be able to pass a checkride or get a flight review endorsement?
 
Lindberg said:
and most pilots don't want to be airline pilots.
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As a career instructor pilot who had to leave the civil sector to make a living as one, that's the wildest take I've read in a while. Even if I were to grant you the hair splitting between 121 and other revenue pilots, your claim is still false. Hobby pilots are a very small minority; and remember even those of us who dabble on it as dual-hatters, are technically being subsidized, but still belong in the "pro" column (recurrent training et al). I also don't count retired former pro cohort at all; I don't think they're relevant to the discussion of how to move this space forward.

If it weren't for the US revenue aviation system demanding in-aircraft primary flight training and not simulators like the rest of the world, you wouldn't even have the piddly amount of recreational pilots you do have, because there wouldn't be/find logistics-supportable aircraft for recreation, at any price.

Even POA is bending pro lately, and I've been wasting bandwith on here for decades to see the change. Half the losers on here I call my esteemed parasocial colleagues :biggrin: , are former or aspiring "career changers". And POA is a very small subset of online aviation as it is.
 
Clip4 said:
I feeL so much better knowing a people with DUIs or a Schedule 1 drug conviction have the chance to fly 172s.
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Well, they've been able to fly airplanes since SP started in 2004, and I don't recall a long list of crashes from SPs flying drunk or going into clouds, so I really don't get why it's such a big deal for you if they can now fly 172s. Do you really think a 172 requires substantially more skill than a P2008?

There is a substantial history of safe flying by SPs and by PPs without medicals flying under SP rules. Your fears are irrational, without real world data to substantiate them.
 
My guess is most if those that will exercise Sport privileges in the future will be those who had a medical or BasicMed and aren’t going to play that game any longer.

The Sport from scratch pure for fun has and will always be a small population.
 
Clip4 said:
I feeL so much better knowing a people with DUIs or a Schedule 1 drug conviction have the chance to fly 172s.

My 90 year old mother has a drivers license, but I don’t know many who would argue she is medically fit to fly and airplane.
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Well, feelings still seem to cloud your facts and rational thinking.

More than a 172, they could fly an A380.

A class 1-3 medical does not prevent substance issues. If it did, HIMS probably would not exist.

As for your 90 year old mother, you are likely right. Good luck to her in finding a DPE or CFI to sign her off.
 
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Learnin’ to fly… said:
Well, feelings still seem to cloud your facts and rational thinking.

More than a 172, they could fly an A380.

A class 1-3 medical does not prevent substance issues. If it did, HIMS probably would not exist.

As for your 90 year old mother, you are likely right. Good luck to her in finding a DPE or CFI to sign her off.
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You have to go through an FAA medical process for HIMS. Basically serving a motor vehicle suspension will qualify you for a drivers license after a drug or DUI convictions.

None of this drivers license stuff is a good idea. If you can’t get a physician to certify you for basic med, you may have no business flying.
 
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Clip4 said:
None of this drivers license stuff is a good idea. If you can’t get a physician to certify you for basic med, you may have no business flying.
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Prove it. "This drivers license stuff" has been going on for 20 years. Show evidence that all those pilots "have no business flying."

Your opinion is baseless.
 
My local school has a 6-12 month waiting list for people wanting to start ppl right now. Sure this is Canada and those new rules are for the US. Although we do have a recreational pilot permit that’s shorter and easier then PPL here for ages.

If you have a shortage of supply it’s going to mean the higher payee will get it. Suspect that’s still PPL or higher qualifications.

There will be places that open to just do SP training. I don’t know if a school traditionally doing the path to airlines will be interested in that market just yet.

I also question if the new rules will make the licensing market better. I mean a lower license like the recreational license here always meant that you can fly planes with up to 4 seats, but only carry one passenger. It also only need your family doctor to sign a form to get you a class 4 medical. Did it make the market different? I don’t know in anyways it did.
 
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Clip4 said:
Ok, you get your CFI and we will assign you a bipolar student with a drivers license and see how it works out for you.

Been there and done that with students who haven’t gotten a class iii yet.
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Exactly how many bipolar SPs do you think are out there flying? SP has been around for two decades. Show me the problem! Your hand wringing is baseless.

If you can’t evaluate a situation rationally, maybe you should not be flying.
 
Half Fast said:
Exactly how many bipolar SPs do you think are out there flying? SP has been around for two decades. Show me the problem! Your hand wringing is baseless.

If you can’t evaluate a situation rationally, maybe you should not be flying.
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It’s not how many there are now, it’s how many there are going to be.

You are welcome to train whoever you are qualified to train. I am not doing the drivers license thing.
 
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