When to refuse to do an annual.

MauleSkinner said:
Is removing and replacing inspection panels or cowling considered “maintenance”?
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Yes. And in some cases preventative maintenance, allowing a pilot to perform the cowling/panel replacement.
 
Bell206 said:
So, in the context of my last post that you quoted above in Post 69... stay with me now... when you perform a prebuy on an aircraft do you only "look" at the aircraft or do you also perform maintenance like remove cowling, check compressions, or open inspection panels to "look" closer?
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Seeing there are no rules for what to inspect, the prebuy can be any thing.
who says they must do some thing.
 
Bell206 said:
So, in the context of my last post that you quoted above in Post 69... stay with me now... when you perform a prebuy on an aircraft do you only "look" at the aircraft or do you also perform maintenance like remove cowling, check compressions, or open inspection panels to "look" closer?
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So... you changed topic ?
 
Tom-D said:
Seeing there are no rules for what to inspect, the prebuy can be any thing.
who says they must do some thing.
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Tom-D said:
So... you changed topic ?
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Changed topic? No. The quote you posted above (#84) was a reply to a post by Witmo, not you. Since you felt compelled to post your opinion on the Witmo reply, I followed up with a separate question to you. Which you classically failed to answer above in #83. Perhaps you prefer yes or no questions?:rolleyes:
 
Tom-D said:
then what are we talking about today?
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Ummm... the same topic since Post #66 that you already tried 3 times to respond to. I can sum it up for you again if you like? If you perform a prebuy on an aircraft and remove cowling and/or inspection panels plus perform a compression check do you need to enter that work in the aircraft record as maintenance per Part 43.9. Yes or No?
 
RussR said:
No doubt, it's your airplane, you can permit me or not permit me to do whatever you wish. But the typical purchase process allows a prebuy performed by the buyer's mechanic, and this generally does consist of some minor disassembly for looking around.

Your choice, of course, but if I wanted to buy your airplane, and you wouldn't allow my mechanic to even open up inspection panels and check for corrosion, I'd assume you're hiding something and would move on to the next one on my list.
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In my case I have their mechanic open everything up so I can look.
 
Bell206 said:
Ummm... the same topic since Post #66 that you already tried 3 times to respond to. I can sum it up for you again if you like? If you perform a prebuy on an aircraft and remove cowling and/or inspection panels plus perform a compression check do you need to enter that work in the aircraft record as maintenance per Part 43.9. Yes or No?
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SOSDD?
 
Bell206 said:
Ummm... the same topic since Post #66 that you already tried 3 times to respond to. I can sum it up for you again if you like? If you perform a prebuy on an aircraft and remove cowling and/or inspection panels plus perform a compression check do you need to enter that work in the aircraft record as maintenance per Part 43.9. Yes or No?
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I'm not an A&P so I don't know the legal answer, but I can tell you I've never heard of a log book entry for a prebuy and there wasn't one for the planes I've had looked at or the ones I ended up buying.
 
Punkinhead said:
but I can tell you I've never heard of a log book entry for a prebuy
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And you would probably be correct for a "prebuy" entry. It's the work performed during a prebuy that requires the record entries as mentioned above. The rules covering the documentation of such work have been there for decades and are basically the same. Now whether you want to follow them is your decision. The main issue for not making those entries is that it sets up the last person who did sign off similar work to take the blame for anything done wrong by the person who doesn't sign off work as required.;)
 
Bell206 said:
Yes. And in some cases preventative maintenance, allowing a pilot to perform the cowling/panel replacement.
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Oh, Pul-lease. Under this twisted logic, as a pilot I would need to log EVERY preflight inspection I did.
 
Domenick said:
Oh, Pul-lease. Under this twisted logic, as a pilot I would need to log EVERY preflight inspection I did.
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Not really. See
Appendix A to Part 43—Major Alterations, Major Repairs, and Preventive Maintenance
 
Bell206 said:
Curious. So if a mechanic does a prebuy which involves removal of various items like cowling, inspection panels, etc. and performs a compression test, you would not allow him to enter that work performed in the aircraft record? Or, what if he found a 10/80 cylinder during the compression check, you would not accept a discrepancy list from him for inclusion in the aircraft record?
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Speaking for myself, I wouldn't have my aircraft logs with me. I would accept a discrepancy list from him.
 
Domenick said:
Oh, Pul-lease. Under this twisted logic, as a pilot I would need to log EVERY preflight inspection I did.
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Ha. No. :rolleyes:

As I mentioned above... only maintenance that meets the level as defined in Part 43 requires an entry. This excludes items in a normal pre-flight. So if your POH/AFM describes an item in the pre-flight check it isn't considered mx. Same as servicing engine oil, servicing fuel, cleaning windshields, calculating useable wt. and c.g., etc. There are a number of guidance documents on this. This is the exact reason I'm a big fan to require all PPLs to be taught a basic course in the FARs. ;)
 
Bell206 said:
Ha. No. :rolleyes:

As I mentioned above... only maintenance that meets the level as defined in Part 43 requires an entry. This excludes items in a normal pre-flight. So if your POH/AFM describes an item in the pre-flight check it isn't considered mx. Same as servicing engine oil, servicing fuel, cleaning windshields, calculating useable wt. and c.g., etc. There are a number of guidance documents on this. This is the exact reason I'm a big fan to require all PPLs to be taught a basic course in the FARs. ;)
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Then why doesn't that apply to looking at an aircraft when a A&P-IA is evaluating discrepancies.
 
Tom-D said:
Then why doesn't that apply to looking at an aircraft when a A&P-IA is evaluating discrepancies.
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I believe you have an unanswered question in Post 87 that needs attention before any other questions can be answered...;)
 
Bell206 said:
I believe you have an unanswered question in Post 87 that needs attention before any other questions can be answered...;)
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The answer should be obvious .
 
Bell206 said:
The only thing obvious is your inability to answer a maintenance question... which seems strangely ironic.:rolleyes:
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What is obvious is, you don't know what an inspections is
had you stayed on subject maybe you'd learned there was no inspection.
 
Tom-D said:
What is obvious is, you don't know what an inspections is had you stayed on subject maybe you'd learned there was no inspection.
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??? I didn't go off the subject, someone else did. Then I responded to that person on a different subject. Then you went off subject as well with us and joined the conversation. And In Post 87 above you were not able to answer a maintenance question from that side subject. Are you trying to answer that question now?
 
Bell206 said:
Ha. No. :rolleyes:
As I mentioned above... only maintenance that meets the level as defined in Part 43 requires an entry. This excludes items in a normal pre-flight. So if your POH/AFM describes an item in the pre-flight check it isn't considered mx. Same as servicing engine oil, servicing fuel, cleaning windshields, calculating useable wt. and c.g., etc. There are a number of guidance documents on this. This is the exact reason I'm a big fan to require all PPLs to be taught a basic course in the FARs. ;)
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And if I pull the top engine cowling to get a better look?
 
Domenick said:
And if I pull the top engine cowling to get a better look?
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Technically, it would require a write up (by a pilot) if it were considered outside a normal preflight. I don't make the rules, I just have experience in how they are enforced. However, if you believe removing the cowling is part of your preflight that's up to you.
 
RussR said:
A prebuy virtually always consists of a look through the logbooks as well.
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Any AP that looks at my plane would have access to my logs online.
 
Tom-D said:
In order to sell the aircraft. wouldn't you provide a copy ?
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Same thing, available online. Not handing my logs over to anyone but the Faa.
 
Tom
Back to your original question. As an aircraft owner I’d appreciate you telling me what you think and why. This one seems obvious but I always go into my annuals with the knowledge that I don’t know what I don’t know and one of the things I value most about my IA’s is their saving me from potentially hazardous or expensive issues I didn’t recognize.

It’s possible that this guy had someone signing off his annuals in the past and really doesn’t understand how bad the condition of the plane is or how much it could cost to resolve those problems. I’d have an honest conversation with him and let it go at that. I would not consider that to be an ‘inspection’ and wouldn’t think any documentation was required.

gary
 
GaryV said:
T
It’s possible that this guy had someone signing off his annuals in the past and really doesn’t understand how bad the condition of the plane is or how much it could cost to resolve those problems. I’d have an honest conversation with him and let it go at that. I would not consider that to be an ‘inspection’ and wouldn’t think any documentation was required.

gary
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the aircraft (the 210) was an aircraft that was owned a pilot that passed away, the son was dealing with it. It was a shame that the aircraft was just too far gone.
Some times we can't help what we find, The Son has scrapped the 120. I didn't even check to see what the date that the last annual occurred.
really doesn't matter.
Can you imagine a mess the title would be in. long since out date registration?
just not worth it.
 
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