When does Night qualify for actual IFR?

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I had to get current for night flight as it had been about 5 months since I flew at night and I have a trip planned with the family this week. I waited until 1/2 hour passed official night time and almost immediately after departure I was 100% in instrument mode. There was absolutely no moon light, no ground lights and i could not see terrain or horizon at all. For the hour 1/2 flight I did, this was the case for maybe 20 minutes or so heading out from my airport and coming back. I was on an IFR flight plan and was thinking how dangerous that flight could have been for someone without that training. Anyhow, Can I log this time as actual? Can I count any of the approaches towards my currency?

Attached is a picture right after takeoff.
 

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I can see your argument, but IMC has always had to do with cig and vis in my experience.

Personally I wouldn't log it as IMC, as a VFR PPL could legaly fly in the conditions you were in.
 
Stealing a march on Ron Levy, who will surely chime in, the General Counsel has ruled that any time that you do not have a visible horizon and are flying by reference to instruments you are in IMC. Log it. IMC does not necessarily require clouds.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Stealing a march on Ron Levy, who will surely chime in, the General Counsel has ruled that any time that you do not have a visible horizon and are flying by reference to instruments you are in IMC. Log it. IMC does not necessarily require clouds.

Bob Gardner
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Perhaps a minor nit - it's not "are flying by reference to instruments." It's "need to fly by reference to instruments" or, in the actual language of the Chief Counsel opinion, "if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft."
 
bobmrg said:
Stealing a march on Ron Levy, who will surely chime in, the General Counsel has ruled that any time that you do not have a visible horizon and are flying by reference to instruments you are in IMC. Log it. IMC does not necessarily require clouds.

Bob Gardner
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:yeahthat:
 
Because I'm VFR-only, I've always been very careful about night flights because of the above reasons. If it's OK to log it as IMC, and you don't have an IR, and you are not with an IR pilot who could be PIC, (yeah, it's not a good idea to get into that situation), would that draw unwanted attention to yourself at some time in the future?
 
I would like to point out that Synthetic vision is cheating. :D

Seriously, the answer is in post #4 but regarding #6, if you flew in these conditions, you would log VFR. IF a VFR-Only pilot had an incident, it would say "Night-VMC conditions" and the cause would be "impacted terrain for unknown reasons"....
 
Here's the discussion to which Bob alluded above. Per the Chief Counsel's definition, it seems likely to me that one could log actually instrument time in the OP's described conditions.
 
Matthew said:
Because I'm VFR-only, I've always been very careful about night flights because of the above reasons. If it's OK to log it as IMC, and you don't have an IR, and you are not with an IR pilot who could be PIC, (yeah, it's not a good idea to get into that situation), would that draw unwanted attention to yourself at some time in the future?
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You're logging it as "actual instrument time", not "IMC time". See 14 CFR 61.51 on this point. However, if you do so log it, follow the Chief Counsel's advice and make note of what conditions led you to do so. As long as it's actual instrument conditions without being IMC, there's nothing wrong.
 
Ron Levy said:
You're logging it as "actual instrument time", not "IMC time". See 14 CFR 61.51 on this point. However, if you do so log it, follow the Chief Counsel's advice and make note of what conditions led you to do so. As long as it's actual instrument conditions without being IMC, there's nothing wrong.
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D'oh, yeah. Got the terminology wrong.

So far, I've only done one moonless, high overcast night flight, over blacked out country terrain, and that was with a CFI. I started getting disoriented as soon as we rotated and I saw nothing but black. Feeling my head swim that close to the ground made me not want to do something like that again.
 
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Ron Levy said:
And in this case, the terminology is very important.
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Indeed it is, since IMC does not equal "actual". Being at 5000 msl in Class E airspace with clouds 400' above you and 1000 miles visibility all the way to the ground is "IMC"
 
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Matthew said:
D'oh, yeah. Got the terminology wrong.

So far, I've only done one moonless, high overcast night flight, over blacked out country terrain, and that was with a CFI. I started getting disoriented as soon as we rotated and I saw nothing but black. Feeling my head swim that close to the ground made me not want to do something like that again.
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I had that experience yet again two nights ago during my first night currency run here in VT. It was on takeoff, pitch dark, no ground reference at all, the HSI showed me drifting leftward though it felt straight and level as far as my ears and butt could tell me. I corrected and had to briefly fight the sensation that I was in a right turn. Once on downwind I had ground reference again (runway lights). Next two laps I was on the gauges from wheels up through crosswind and had no further problems. But you do have to have the instrument skills (though not necessarily the rating).

To answer post #6, I logged actual instrument time a few times before getting the rating. Usually it was over water in haze, or over northern MI at twilight. I don't think there's anything suspicious about it as long as you note the conditions that justified logging it as actual. Some folks might say it's not smart, and that may or may not be true depending on your skills, but no one ever said legal implies smart.
 
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Matthew said:
Because I'm VFR-only, I've always been very careful about night flights because of the above reasons. If it's OK to log it as IMC, and you don't have an IR, and you are not with an IR pilot who could be PIC, (yeah, it's not a good idea to get into that situation), would that draw unwanted attention to yourself at some time in the future?
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Yeah a non instrument rated pilot logging a bunch of actual time solo would look pretty strange.

The military guys log instrument time anytime they log night time. They log simulated instrument anytime they are doing an approach as well. No matter how clear it is outside.:D
 
midlifeflyer said:
Indeed it is, since IMC does not equal "actual". Being at 5000 msl in Class E airspace with clouds 400' above you and 1000 miles visibility all the way to the ground is "IMC"
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Yep. And JFKJr was flying legal VFR but in IMC. (as best as could be told by the investigators...)
 
Skip Miller said:
Yep. And JFKJr was flying legal VFR but in IMC. (as best as could be told by the investigators...)
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No, he was flying legal VFR in actual instrument conditions. Had he been in IMC, then by definition per 14 CF 91.155, he would not have been flying legal VFR. Remember, IMC/VMC only covers whether or not you can legally fly VFR while "actual instrument conditions" cover whether you can log actual instrument time. Further, if you're in actual instrument conditions, you can log actual instrument time regardless of whether you're in IMC or VMC, and regardless of whether you are operating under IFR or VFR. Read my link above for a more detailed discussion of the terminology.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
The military guys log instrument time anytime they log night time. They log simulated instrument anytime they are doing an approach as well. No matter how clear it is outside.:D
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Got a reference for that?
 
The last time I accumulated instrument time because I was flying in pitch black conditions I was thinking I'd be pretty screwed if the engine quit.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Yeah a non instrument rated pilot logging a bunch of actual time solo would look pretty strange.

The military guys log instrument time anytime they log night time. They log simulated instrument anytime they are doing an approach as well. No matter how clear it is outside.:D
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I was a military pilot for 23 years. I was an Instructor Pilot and an Instrument Examiner in both airplanes and helicopters. Never once did I log like that or even here someone suggest that was proper.
 
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ghogue said:
I was a military pilot for 23 years. I was an Instructor Pilot and an Instrument Examiner in both airplanes and helicopters. Never once did I log like that or even here someone suggest that was proper.
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I flew 15 years in the Navy and Air Force in the 70's and 80's, and both services logged all night as instrument. Of course, that may have been different before 1973 or changed after 1988, and the Army may have had different rules entirely.
 
nosehair said:
Got a reference for that?
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AFI 11-401

ghogue said:
I was a military pilot for 23 years. I was an Instructor Pilot and an Instrument Examiner in both airplanes and helicopters. Never once did I log like that or even here someone suggest that was proper.
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Not sure if you were Army(either way, thank you for your service!) but in the AF, dual logging instrument time with night time has been the norm.
 
azure said:
I had that experience yet again two nights ago during my first night currency run here in VT. It was on takeoff, pitch dark, no ground reference at all, the HSI showed me drifting leftward though it felt straight and level as far as my ears and butt could tell me. I corrected and had to briefly fight the sensation that I was in a right turn. Once on downwind I had ground reference again (runway lights). Next two laps I was on the gauges from wheels up through crosswind and had no further problems. But you do have to have the instrument skills (though not necessarily the rating).
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Before I got my instrument rating I experienced this hard in a rental 172 while on a solo night currency flight. It was a very real experience. I was departing KPSM and with a left turn out you are pointed over Great Bay with the nose up high climbing out and no lights or moon that night. I spent several seconds looking at the directional gyro slowly spinning saying "there must be something wrong with the instrument" before catching myself and realizing that I was in a slight bank. It was particularly shocking since I was always well aware on a knowledge/textbook basis of the various spatial disorientations and it was STILL able to affect me so easily.
 
tlglenn said:
The last time I accumulated instrument time because I was flying in pitch black conditions I was thinking I'd be pretty screwed if the engine quit.
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Very true.
I once took off from South Lake Tahoe airport at night and after I left the lights of casinos behind I was in total darkness (it was VMC) until seeing lights of Sacramento about 1 hr later. Below me were 10,000 ft peaks that I could not see - I had to rely on sectional chart and safe altitudes to stay out of danger. Had I lost an engine in my Archer I wouldn't have been writing today. So you can imagine how focused I was on proper leaning, fuel flow, etc. and literally stared at the instruments (there was nothing else to stare at) looking for any sign of trouble. Had 3 people with me.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
AFI 11-401



Not sure if you were Army(either way, thank you for your service!) but in the AF, dual logging instrument time with night time has been the norm.
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Yes, Army. I'm retired now, so, not sure if the regulations are the same, but when we flew "actual instruments" at night, we had to choose which to log. Night, or Instrument. Couldn't log both. May be different now. Based on what Ron posted above, the Air Force and Navy were different.

One thing I've noticed is that people tend to lump all the military services regulations into the term "military" (I'm guilty sometimes, too). I think quite often they're different.
 
Right. I was Army, and I've noticed Army flying regs, policies, etc. are closer to "small plane" civilian practices, whereas AF is more like corporate/airline practices.
Navy lives in it's own world.
 
Wish I would have known this "back in the day" when I was a younger VFR pilot. I used to love flying at night and I went on the instruments on plenty of "return home from dinner" flights...especially those trips from Hot Springs back to Harrison. Nothing but a lot of hilly, unlit countryside 'twixt those two towns and on a moonless or high overcast night the instruments were your best (and only) friend.

I likely logged north of 25 hours of "actual" before getting my IR but wasn't aware that it could be logged.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, he was flying legal VFR in actual instrument conditions. Had he been in IMC, then by definition per 14 CF 91.155, he would not have been flying legal VFR. Remember, IMC/VMC only covers whether or not you can legally fly VFR while "actual instrument conditions" cover whether you can log actual instrument time. Further, if you're in actual instrument conditions, you can log actual instrument time regardless of whether you're in IMC or VMC, and regardless of whether you are operating under IFR or VFR. Read my link above for a more detailed discussion of the terminology.
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But how can a VFR only pilot legally log "actual instrument time" while solo without providing proof of a violation of VFR minimums?
 
Jaybird180 said:
But how can a VFR only pilot legally log "actual instrument time" while solo without providing proof of a violation of VFR minimums?
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On a clear +50 mile visibility night with no moon and horizon, you have to rely solely on instruments to remain straight and level.
 
Regardless of the correct answer, I hope people reading this thread take away that night flying often requires the skills of a proficient instrument pilot and will prove quickly fatal without these skills. I find this particularly true in the mountains. In and around the Rockies, even on a clear night with a full moon, the horizon can not only be difficult to find but what you see out the window can be seriously misleading.
 
Jaybird180 said:
But how can a VFR only pilot legally log "actual instrument time" while solo without providing proof of a violation of VFR minimums?
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jordane93 said:
On a clear +50 mile visibility night with no moon and horizon, you have to rely solely on instruments to remain straight and level.
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Yeah - that's it. Totally VMC, but pitch black and no horizon. Not uncommon once you get away from city lights. My primary CFI made sure I got to experience that.
 
Matthew said:
My primary CFI made sure I got to experience that.
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As did mine plus I got a lot more than the minimum required hood time.

I really think this is one that Canada got right (that is, if I correctly understand their system).
 
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Jaybird180 said:
But how can a VFR only pilot legally log "actual instrument time" while solo without providing proof of a violation of VFR minimums?
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Havn't you noticed there is never "proof" required to log anything?
When u log night, you don't log the times to prove it.
When you log landings, approaches, etc., there is never a requirement of proof or legality.
Proof would only be in the picture if an accident causes investigations into logged entries.

Ain't America Beautiful ?
 
timwinters said:
As did mine plus I got a lot more than the minimum required hood time.

I really think this is one that Canada got right (that is, if I correctly understand their system).
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I think Canada requires an IR to fly at night (someone correct me if I'm wrong). As your own experience confirms, some (perhaps many) VFR pilots are perfectly capable of flying instruments in relatively low-workload situations like cruise. Some VFR pilots based at black hole fields are probably proficient enough to do night takeoffs into actual as well. My personal belief is that a better solution is for CFIs to give their primary students more hood time than the FARs require and drill into them the importance of staying proficient at flying by the instruments, and above all how to recognize when you need to do so. That would help to keep them from killing themselves if they should encounter JFK Jr. conditions (or even happen to fly into hard IMC) and help them down the road if they decide to go for the IR.
 
I had plenty of hood time, but my instrument scan is sub-par
PPL PTS doesnt address this by design. It is believed that if it does cover proper scanning technique that PPLs will think they can fly in IMC and kill themselves or others and break FARs that IR pilots are reqd to follow.
 
Jaybird180 said:
PPL PTS doesnt address this by design. It is believed that if it does cover proper scanning technique that PPLs will think they can fly in IMC and kill themselves or others and break FARs that IR pilots are reqd to follow.
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Where did you see that written and attributed to the FAA? My personal gut feeling is that does not reflect official FAA thinking.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I had plenty of hood time, but my instrument scan is sub-par
PPL PTS doesnt address this by design. It is believed that if it does cover proper scanning technique that PPLs will think they can fly in IMC and kill themselves or others and break FARs that IR pilots are reqd to follow.
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Everyone is supposed to follow the FARs, IR and non-IR pilots alike. By that reasoning they SHOULD make night operations restricted to IFR rated pilots, since in some areas it requires instrument skills and non-IR rated pilots with sub-par instrument skills could go up at night over the north woods and kill themselves. I don't buy the argument that because some people will be tempted into doing something illegal if they have a certain skill, that the skill should not be taught until one is ready to legally do that something. Particularly if the skill is one that could save lives if taught properly.
 
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