AggieMike88
Touchdown! Greaser!
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Well, you always can make more videos from the high wing Cirrus located at KGLE.
What would make you rent more?
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DFH65
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DFH65
I misspoke. I just looked it up. It was a 150 and the price was $69.95
ETA: their normal current rate for the 150 is $90 and their older 172's are $125.
uncreative
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Uncreative
Discount on block time. Discount for off hours (weekday eves). The owner of the plane that currently fly a couple of times a week gave me a checkmate checklist and Piper hat as a thank you. It was a thoughtful gesture.
Harold Rutila
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm with you 100%.
Cajun_Flyer
Pattern Altitude
Sounds like my airport. The only way I'll fly on the weekend is if it's 8 am on Sunday. Even that is going to get risky as it gets warmer. Last time I attempted a Saturday flight, I taxied out to the runway to find six planes lined up waiting, another five in the run-up and watched a couple more taxing down as I pulled in. By the time I got through my run-up, only one of the six planes had been able to take off due to incoming traffic. No thanks. Called ground and went back.
As an operator, I'd be cautious about any scheme that pressured pilots to rent during a given window or on short notice. You don't want to have anything in your operations that could be tied to an accident- was in a rush so didn't preflight, didn't get full weather, went into MVFR because the rental rate was better, etc. In fact your insurance folks might have something to say about it.
At my FBO, I pay a premium to fly a middle of the road SEL airplane that has avionics less than 20 years old, doesn't embarrass me, and is available when I want to go. And that's an insane (to me) $165/hr. Give me a system that encourages me to fly - eg better rates for more rental usage, a social network, and modern aircraft- and business will follow.
Last I agree with others about renting unusual A/C, however the FBO I use had the only tailwheel in the area for rent and it was getting very light usage.
At my FBO, I pay a premium to fly a middle of the road SEL airplane that has avionics less than 20 years old, doesn't embarrass me, and is available when I want to go. And that's an insane (to me) $165/hr. Give me a system that encourages me to fly - eg better rates for more rental usage, a social network, and modern aircraft- and business will follow.
Last I agree with others about renting unusual A/C, however the FBO I use had the only tailwheel in the area for rent and it was getting very light usage.
dmspilot
Final Approach
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No.
Yes, if it's a regular thing, not random like Example 1.
No.
No.
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What might make me rent more:
1. Charging by tach hour and/or offering dry rates so that I can choose how much of my money is spent on fuel.
2. More reasonable hourly minimums. I get that FBOs don't want to lose revenue by having someone hog the plane without flying it. But a large part of the FBO's cost of renting the airplane out to someone is made up of marginal hourly costs such as fuel, oil, engine reserve, etc. If an airplane typically averages 3 hours a day, a 3 hour minimum is fair enough, but if I only fly it 2 hours instead of 3, it would be more fair to charge me the extra hour at a reduced rate that would be analogous to "lost profit" rather than "lost revenue."
3. Better availability. Every time I wanted to use an airplane for a trip, it was taken already. Maybe set aside one airplane only for trips so that I don't have to cancel a weekend trip because someone already reserved the airplane a month ahead of time in order to do touch and goes for one whole hour.
4. Decent paint, glass, and interior, and decent avionics--don't have to be the latest, just reliable.
orange
Line Up and Wait
Yep, 2 weeks ago at said airport, I had 0.8 hobbs for taxi, run-up, and waitimg for TO clearance. Saturday 9am. YUCK!
orange
Line Up and Wait
I would NEVER rent at a place where my reservation can be bumped by somebody willing to pay more, or who spends more at this FBO. I don't go for the entitled elitist crap.
oregonboy109
Line Up and Wait
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oregonboy109
I agree. But I also agree with the guy who can't do a family X-c because Bobby needs 1h in the pattern. How about a way to contact other renters and negotiate?
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
First come, first serve.
Probably number 1. If they were doing a happy hour I would jump all over it. Only thing is I'm sure others would too
RyanShort1
Final Approach
The biggest question here is whether or not it actually increases hours flown and what the breakdown on fixed operating costs are. If an incentive pushed utilization up on a near-break-even price up to where a plane flew nearly twice as much, it could be a fairly big deal. If you are spreading $4000/yr insurance over 500 hours a year (10 per week) that's $8/hr for insurance. Hangar and overhead costs are also fixed costs per year most of the time. If you push that to 1000 hrs/yr per aircraft that same rate could go down by 50% - but that's really not that much. Fuel costs, engine and mx costs, are all pretty much the same hour-by-hour and really and truly, if you get a lot of the pilots who aren't flying enough to fly more, you may see better safety, but some of them are going to increase the risks a bunch, too, and your maintenance costs may be driven right back up. Also, in my opinion, you can't have both a really nice interior and a LOT of hours. Sooner or later it's going to cost a bunch of money for a new interior.
oregonboy109
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oregonboy109
Most online schedulers have a way for members to put in phone numbers and email. My club requires it for reasons like this. I'm sure in the above situation most people would yield their short flight to save someones trip.
evapilotaz
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Drone airspace abuser
Azpilot I don't see how you were ever that long on the ground. I'm usually airborn from contacting ground to wheels up 15 minutes and I fly Saturday's. It's rare I set and wait at kchd
We do offer block rate benefits. A discount of $10/HR no matter the airplane. Our warrior is only $105 on block pricing!
If you don't take into account block pricing, my least expensive airplane, a PA28-161 is $115/HR wet. We do not require supplemental renters insurance. I find that to be a reasonable price for what you get.
And that's our concept. Unfortunately not all of our airplanes have 430s or better yet but we're getting there. A BIG deal to us is that we allow students, renters and perspective customers access to all the logbooks and they can walk down the hall to the mechanics that work on them too. Maintenance and overall professionalism is incredibly important.
A good idea, thank you! We've thought about some small first solo or check ride pass gifts but I like the idea of little things for good customers too.
Dry rates are not good for an operator, or for the renter as we get much better fuel pricing as an tenant of thrnfbo. Dry rates increase the likelihood that an airplane is run too lean or an a less than optimal rpm to reduce fuel burn.
As far as minimums go it's been difficult. I don't mind a day trip or even a 2 day (1) night with just three hours on it but I have students that want the pa28s 7 days a week. With the acquisition of a 172 I am hoping the rental folks gravitate towards that airplane. The whole "specials" idea came about because we want to get people to get excited about the 172 and rent it. It's a very nice airplane, but thr nicer the airplane the more it costs to buy, insure, and the more fuel it burns (180hp, 125-129kts!).
I like to be transparent. I really appreciate the feedback and as the business grows I will certainly be taking it into consideration. My responses are meant to explain why flight schools do things the way they do. It's not easy, but we are hopeful that our leap of faith can bring aviation to more people, especially our generation.
dmspilot
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I don't follow. Dry would mean the pilot pays for the quantity of fuel actually used. That doesn't mean you can't still buy it for him/her. It would just be itemized on the pilot's bill rather than included in the rental rate.
Seems there are ways around that. An engine analyzer/recorder (if such a thing exists). Or estimate it by tach time.
Less than optimal RPM? You're talking about an aircraft with a fixed pitch prop aren't you? Why would lower RPM be bad? If you're looking at constant speed, nevermind the question.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I'm an owner so most of these scenarios are "don't care", but when I was renting...
1. Probably not. Very slight maybe. If I'm going flying I'm already at the airport.
2. Seems like an interesting idea for clubs that have peop clashing to book on weekends but frankly, if you have too much of that, you need another aircraft of the popular variety on the flight line worse than you need a few extra weekday renters.
3. I recently learned competition is so high at my home field for aircraft rentals that out of three clubs large enough to bother with, two have no dues whatsoever and really reasonable prices on their aircraft. Both have some really minor/tiny "administrative" fees. We're talking $40/year here. Not $40/month. I haven't investigated how they handle their insurance. The other "big club" has both monthly dues and an annual insurance pool assessment to handle immediately covering any deductibles that arise.
4. Clubs should just do this anyway. But I know Rod so I'm biased. He's a good guy and it's a good idea. Hard to get people interested since those who actually want to actually travel via light aircraft go buy them, and rarely rent. Those who travel by human mailing tube weren't interested enough in flying themselves to do it in the first place, so unless it's a spectacular view at a "touristy" location, they probably don't rent. But the concept that there can be a standard type checkout on a type and it works "anywhere" is a good one. I wouldn't want to do business with an FBO I didn't know anyway, because I ask a lot of insurance questions of "clubs" and "schools".
So very much agree. I've had the "we moved you to the crap airplane because XYZ needed the nice one for a checkride" crap before and that's bad enough. Hated it.
Block rates are good; volume discount.
Like others, I'm not happy about bumping. Not even for someone's checkride. Now, if I'm just planning on farting around and someone needs the plane for a checkride or a trip I'm usually happy to let them have it. But cancel something I really do want to do because they can't work with the current availability? Not so much. Generally that's just a lack of planning on their part. In my last partnership we'd put a note on a reservation, especially weekends, if we were just goofing around to let the other partners know we'd be fine with canceling it if they wanted to go somewhere. And that was with a first come first serve policy on the reservations.
As a renter that travels I love dry rates. Then if I don't hit the daily minimum I'm not paying for fuel I didn't burn. I don't mind paying minimums as I have the plane and others can't fly it, but paying for fuel I don't burn? Grrrrrr.
Too lean? What about too rich?
"Less than optimal rpm"? Wouldn't that increase their fuel costs? If it's not optimal......
Your discount may or may not be better. Depends on your location. I flew out of a place at one time that was $2/gal more than a small airport 18 nm away. Guess where will filled up. Now, if your airport is competitive on fuel price and you get a hefty discount, then maybe that works out better. When I was in a club that rented dry we got a discount from the FBO; i.e. each of the club members got the discount. When I was in a partnership at another location we got a discount from the FBO as well. You could arrange the discount for all of your members just as easily as for your flight school.
Like others, I'm not happy about bumping. Not even for someone's checkride. Now, if I'm just planning on farting around and someone needs the plane for a checkride or a trip I'm usually happy to let them have it. But cancel something I really do want to do because they can't work with the current availability? Not so much. Generally that's just a lack of planning on their part. In my last partnership we'd put a note on a reservation, especially weekends, if we were just goofing around to let the other partners know we'd be fine with canceling it if they wanted to go somewhere. And that was with a first come first serve policy on the reservations.
As a renter that travels I love dry rates. Then if I don't hit the daily minimum I'm not paying for fuel I didn't burn. I don't mind paying minimums as I have the plane and others can't fly it, but paying for fuel I don't burn? Grrrrrr.
Too lean? What about too rich?
"Less than optimal rpm"? Wouldn't that increase their fuel costs? If it's not optimal......
Your discount may or may not be better. Depends on your location. I flew out of a place at one time that was $2/gal more than a small airport 18 nm away. Guess where will filled up. Now, if your airport is competitive on fuel price and you get a hefty discount, then maybe that works out better. When I was in a club that rented dry we got a discount from the FBO; i.e. each of the club members got the discount. When I was in a partnership at another location we got a discount from the FBO as well. You could arrange the discount for all of your members just as easily as for your flight school.
DFH65
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DFH65
I was going to say the same thing about the dry rate. I would think there would be some advantages to the owner as well instead of running right up against the redline the "Hec I am not paying for the fuel mentality so let it burn, or lean what's lean?" I would think it would be less wear and tear overall.
Obviously it is not the case for every pilot but given the opportunity to save money on fuel by getting a dry rate a lot of people will abuse someone else's aircraft to save a buck. We teach students, and renters our preferred method of operating the aircraft/engine and we expect that they will abide by that. Giving a dry rate is just too risky when you're dealing with masses of people you don't really know.
It is a hard balance especially as we're starting out and slowly (haha) acquiring airplanes. Everyone has different priorities as to how they want to spend their flying dollars. Some want an inexpensive time builder and don't care about the equipment or paint. Others want a nice looking airplane they can take to lunch. Some folks want advanced avionics. We're trying our best to provide the best airplanes for reasonable prices that create good value for the most people. Gathering opinions like this is extremely valuable and I greatly appreciate everyone's input.
It is a hard balance especially as we're starting out and slowly (haha) acquiring airplanes. Everyone has different priorities as to how they want to spend their flying dollars. Some want an inexpensive time builder and don't care about the equipment or paint. Others want a nice looking airplane they can take to lunch. Some folks want advanced avionics. We're trying our best to provide the best airplanes for reasonable prices that create good value for the most people. Gathering opinions like this is extremely valuable and I greatly appreciate everyone's input.
jspilot
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jspilot
I rent from a great FBO that really does almost everything that the OP asked. It's a very well run place. That being said, if I were to rent more frequently I would need a higher salary and I'm not sure the FBO can help me with that!
But things that would make me rent more are-
1. FBO organized pilot meet ups at different airports( or events- challenges if you will) in which I receive a substantial discount if I accomplish them. So maybe, land at 10 different airports in a month and receive 50% off your next flight. That would be fun, make me motivated to get out and fly, and provide an incentive to take longer flights. You could also say things like, "take a flight of over 125nm's away from this airport and receive a voucher for .40 cents off per gallon of gas used. Again, if you thought about ways to encourage people to fly, and take longer flights, the FBO would profit more and I would rent more.
As much as I, the renter would love it, waiving over night fees is a terrible business plan for and FBO. The plane sits idle for 40-46 hours of a long weekend trip and generates no income. You'd go out of business in a heart beat that way.
But things that would make me rent more are-
1. FBO organized pilot meet ups at different airports( or events- challenges if you will) in which I receive a substantial discount if I accomplish them. So maybe, land at 10 different airports in a month and receive 50% off your next flight. That would be fun, make me motivated to get out and fly, and provide an incentive to take longer flights. You could also say things like, "take a flight of over 125nm's away from this airport and receive a voucher for .40 cents off per gallon of gas used. Again, if you thought about ways to encourage people to fly, and take longer flights, the FBO would profit more and I would rent more.
As much as I, the renter would love it, waiving over night fees is a terrible business plan for and FBO. The plane sits idle for 40-46 hours of a long weekend trip and generates no income. You'd go out of business in a heart beat that way.
SoonerAviator
Final Approach
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SoonerAviator
Maybe on occasion, it's not a bad idea. It would probably only prompt me to take advantage a few times a year if it happened to be really nice out and I could get away from work easily.
Meh, less-so on this because I usually fly for burger runs or fly-ins which won't likely fall on the low-usage periods.
No. I rent from whomever has the aircraft I want/need at the lowest price. I suppose if they were willing to get me checked out for free (on instruction) in an aircraft the other rental outfit didn't have I'd probably jump on it.
OpenAirplane is a nice thought, but I'm not paying more for using a service that lets everyone know what my logbook already says: I'm current/proficient in said aircraft.
Things that would get me flying more:
1) Greater variety of rental aircraft (Tiger, Cherokee 6, C182, Mooney 201, Taylorcraft, etc). The usual rental outfits usually have a group of 152/172's and a Seminole or similar multi-trainer. Nothing that could hold 4-full sized adults, nothing that's fun or different. Trainers are all well and good, and that's their bread-n-butter for rental revenue I'm sure, but I want to rent an aircraft to go somewhere with family and friends. 172's don't allow for much useful load, and I don't want to have to get a multi-rating and try to keep proficient for the few times a year I'd need the useful load it might provide.
2) Better online scheduling/information. Give me the ability to schedule an aircraft myself online. I can rent a car/hotel room/etc online without talking to a soul, I should be able to log in and sign up for an aircraft time slot. Also, provide some info on the aircraft by tail number (like W/B, fuel capacity, panel, maybe some pics) so that if I want to schedule an aircraft, I can do some pre-flight before I get there. Flight Schedule Pro provides a lot of that capability, but neither of the places I rent from uses it to its full capacity.
3) The rental outfits I frequent do give block time discounts, which I used during training, but I'm not handing over $1000+ or more to a company just so they can build interest on my cash.
gms5002
Pre-Flight
Perhaps you could offer a discounted checkout package to your existing renters. E.g. the flight school I trained at got a DA-40 right after I got my PPL but they were asking some very high premium over the 172s so I never tried it out. Perhaps if I had a lower cost way to try it out I may have liked and used it more often.
azpilot
Line Up and Wait
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azpilot
It was definitely one of the longer waits. I think my timing was just bad. It normally doesn't take that long.
azpilot
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azpilot
This is a great suggestion, and I agree with it.
Acrodustertoo
Ejection Handle Pulled
Decent pricing would make the most sense. The last i checked, the nearest 172 for rent was 165/hr! Add instructor to that and well over 200/hr! Good grief.
If i have to decide between buying materials/parts for my build or flying a 172 every month, then forget it. Get way more bang for my buck as well as more satisfaction by building airplane parts then flying a 172.
If i have to decide between buying materials/parts for my build or flying a 172 every month, then forget it. Get way more bang for my buck as well as more satisfaction by building airplane parts then flying a 172.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
free beer?
That is a good idea. If I'm doing the instructing I could comp some of the instructor fee as an incentive or offer to match the rate for a period of time with the PA28 they're checked out in (only about a $10/hr difference but the 172 burns more fuel).
orange
Line Up and Wait
Before or after the flight?free beer?
RalphInCA
Cleared for Takeoff
Right now, the number one thing that would make me rent more, is availability, on my schedule, of reasonably priced (this does not have to mean cheapest) aircraft that I actually trust.
I would probably fly twice as much as I do today, if I could get access to the airplanes that meet my safety and flying requirememts.
I would probably fly twice as much as I do today, if I could get access to the airplanes that meet my safety and flying requirememts.
Jns_V
Filing Flight Plan
Yet, basically any place you could rent from requires some form of checkout, even for the most straightforward types and current / proficient pilots. Even worse, you have no idea what the checkout will actually involve and how much it will take time- or cost-wise. Any system that makes this process easier and/or more predictable is worth a lot for those who'd like to rent when travelling.
arnoha
Cleared for Takeoff
I've never seen a club that doesn't have an online scheduling system. Does that actually exist?
SoonerAviator
Final Approach
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SoonerAviator
Yes, but you have to higher rates most of the time when you use OpenAirplane (that's how they get their cut of the revenue), even if you've already been checked out at that FBO/rental facility. What good does it do me to pay more to use OpenAirplane as an intermediary? I'd also have to get a checkout every 12 months in each type of aircraft I was renting through OpenAirplane, which I don't have to do at the local FBO's I've already utilized. One and done.
SoonerAviator
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SoonerAviator
You're kidding, right? Plenty of rental outfits, clubs, and partnerships don't use online scheduling systems. The club with a bunch of older-generation members isn't as likely to utilize it, and many smaller rental outfits still use a hand-written rental calendar at the front desk.
Jns_V
Filing Flight Plan
Here comes the question whether the market is big enough for renters who'd like to rent when away to be worth going after. Obviously, OpenAirplane does little good for those who only / mainly rent locally.