What to do?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by jordane93, Dec 4, 2015.

  1. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    It all depends on what the hiring company is looking for. I think, generally speaking, companies want to see multiengine PIC. If it's turbine, it's better. But piston PIC is often looked upon as being more valuable than turbine SIC.
     
  2. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    ...yes

    PIC time is PIC time. turbine is turbine.


    The only issue with DZ ops are you aren't going to get much night time or XC time.
     
  3. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    Or IMC.

    Some companies don't just look at the numbers. They look to see whether or not your experience is relevant to what they are hiring you to do.
     
  4. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Already have the night and x country time.
     
  5. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    I'm good with all the ATP requirements except for total time and multi.
     
  6. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    I wasn't referring to ATP requirements. Maybe these days anyone will hire you with minimum ATP requirements, but at some point companies are going to become more selective again, and will not only look at your number of hours, but also at relevant hours. The last hiring spree was about 15 years ago. Then it turned around in a very short amount of time.
     
  7. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

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    One word...seniority. If you want to eventually wind up at the airlines find your fastest way to it as seniority dictates just about everything.
     
  8. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    More details that would have been useful in the beginning.

    If you think your multi time is too low for the typical airline hiring standards then your only choice is "what day would you like me to start?" in the charter place's boss' office.


    This.

    Your window to go to the airlines is going to close and when it closes it will close fast and hard and be closed for a very long time.

    A bunch of us in this thread are telling you to get serious and figure out exactly what to do to get hired by exactly who you want to be hired by, because hiring is roughly 10 year cyclical in airline work and seniority is everything when the inevitable furloughs start, because their profitability is also cyclical and the pilots hurt by it are the low seniority number pilots.

    You really need to get organized and get going if you want an airline job and want to be far enough up the food chain to survive the coming reckoning for some of them.

    We had economic downturns in 2001 and again in 2008 (7 years is a bit early for the typical business cycle of world economics) and we're past the halfway point to the next one with 8 years under our belts. They typically run in 10 year cycles.

    You're going to hop on at the last minute (in terms of business cycle) and then hope you picked the surviving airline at this point in the cycle.

    Better figure it out. Sooner the better.
     
  9. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Yep I've been told this.
     
  10. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    Corporate pilot job......good
    Major Airline career.........Best
    5% of Corporate jobs............even better than best!
     
  11. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    The best of the best are the private jet jobs for good owners, you don't hang in the FBO lounge, you come hang on the yacht with me.
     
  12. NJP_MAN

    NJP_MAN Pattern Altitude

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    Yes indeed.
     
  13. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    They are rare jobs, and most guys I meet have a significant military aviation background, or they are related (or best ones are life long buddies) to the principal party.
     
  14. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    What you do really depends on YOU. What you want, what your goals are, what type of person you are. Thats why no one can answer this question for you, except you. My only advice is "look inside". Dont look outside (status, money, what others think etc). Look inside yourself and ask yourself what you want, desire, are best at, love.
     
  15. NJP_MAN

    NJP_MAN Pattern Altitude

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    I fly with a couple of operators that are fishing trips and vacations. Work is very welcomed when it's time to fly. Unlike the dreaded dispatch call from Acme regional saying I have a 3 hr layover in Ogden then an overnight in Rapid city.


    Jordan, with you're connection to a certain legacy you may be able to back door the majors without going to the regionals down the line if you find you still want to go to 121.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  16. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    I did that regularly on the 70 meter yacht. I dreaded that part of the job.

    I'd much rather stay in the hotel or take the airlines home......which often happened.
     
  17. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    The perceived desirability of corporate and airlines is also cyclical. Before 9/11, countless people told me I should apply to the airlines. After 9/11 there was a large swing to the desirability of corporate for perceived security reasons, not to mention the fact that the airline jobs went away. The financial problems in 2009 hit both sectors, but hit corporate harder. Now people are back to wanting to go to the airlines...

    If you are in your early 20s, you don't know what the future will hold. And even if you think you know what direction you want to take, that could change as you get older.
     
  18. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Than I'd say a twin turbine DZ job would be perfect, you'll get both and you'll get it fast, also probably make some great friends.


    Here are a few postings

    10/16/15 Chicagoland Skydiving Center is looking for a Turbine Jump Pilot for this Winter and next season. They fly a Garrett Caravan, PAC 750 and a Twin Otter. You will need a Commercial Certificate, 2nd Class Medical, 1200TT and 25hrs in type to be flown. Send your resume to dsmith@skydivecsc.com

    9/10/15 Sky's the Limit (PA) is looking for a pilot for their Twin Otter and 900 Caravan. You will need a Commercial Certificate, 2nd Class Medical, Multi Engine Rating, 1000TT and 25hrs in type. Send your resume to jeff@skysthelimit.com


    7/22/15 Skydive Taft (California) is looking for a Beech 99 pilot. They require a Commercial Certificate and 2nd Class Medical plus 1000TT and 100ME. If you do not have any Turbine or Skydive Pilot time, this company will train the "right" candidate. If you meet the above mentioned requirements please send your resume to chris@skydiverdriver.com





    Because doing tons of takeoffs and landings, having excellent energy management, and hand flying skills is not relevant :dunno:

    Speaking from experience, no one has ever had anything negative to say about my DZ time, even in the IFR world.
     
  19. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    I don't know why you are so hung up on DZ time. You bring it up often. So it worked for you, but there aren't that many DZs that use turbine AC. I also had a job which involved many hands-on hours, much of it low-level in the mountains. But some questioned by lack of IMC and night time in comparison with my total hours. Luckily they looked past it, but only because I was hired in a time of a lot of turnover, similar to to today. Interestingly, they didn't blink an eye at my zero hours of turbine. "We can teach you to do that..." And I was hired to fly single-pilot charter and air ambulance in a King Air.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  20. NJP_MAN

    NJP_MAN Pattern Altitude

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    The problem with those DZ postings is he doesn't meet the mins. No need to go sign some kind of training contract at his current total time to fly at a DZ even if they would hire him. He will be airline ready in another 2 months of instructing.
     
  21. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    So many options guys! I really have to think about this one. But thanks for all the advice
     
  22. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    It's all a crap shoot. Every regional and every corporate job
     
  23. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Yep, stability in the transportation industry is pretty much non existent.
     
  24. James331

    James331 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Not hung up on it, just a great way to build turbine PIC time fast.

    I can say with my company, if I hadn't had my turbine PIC time I would not have my job




    When DZs need folks they will often let you slide, especially with time on type and just train the "right guy". Often they expect you to stay for a year or so, if you're cool most will understand if you leave early for a killer job offer.

    Besides, remember to apply for the job you want, not just the jobs you think you're qualified for.

    Something about missing 100% of the shot you don't take and all :wink2:
     
  25. dans2992

    dans2992 En-Route

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    Any serious DZ is going to use turbine AC... Unless they're running a 182 or something....
     
  26. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    Glad you realize that. Majors are crap shoots too. I know a number of people who were furloughed twice from one.
     
  27. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    I was once offered a job at a DZ after taking a jump. They had C-206s. I declined because I already had a full-time job flying C-206s for much more money.
     
  28. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    I just tried that and I think I need a doctor now. So much blood... all over the couch...

    Hahaha.
     
  29. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    Yes, but airlines also want to see you working as part of a crew too. CRM is a huge factor and the last thing an airline wants is to hire a guy who can't work with other pilots.

    Remember, as long as you don't burn bridges, I suspect the instructing gig will still be available if things with the charter operation don't work out.
     
  30. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    I had a next door neighbor who was an AF C-32 pilot who's missions often included using the "Air Force Two" call sign. After retirement he got picked up as the chief pilot responsible for flying around a very-high-net-worth individual. I guess when billionaires can no longer compete with each other on who has a more impressive jet, they have to compete on who has a more impressive crew.
     
  31. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Lots of good advice in this thread. I figure I'll add mine because, well, it's PoA and beating the same topic over and over again is what we do. :)

    One thing that I wanted to say is that it's likely your idea of a 'good' QOL will change as you get older. I'm guessing it's pretty wide right now (which is a good thing!), and will get narrower as you age and assume responsibility to more than just yourself. You're young, and I don't say that in a condescending way, but just to emphasize that the things important to you now will almost certainly change in the next decade. You admit that you have SJS, and you know what? That's fine. You will eventually learn that the novelty of the airplane wears off in a matter of months, leaving your happiness tied to the realities of the job itself. But that's not something you'll understand until you experience it - no amount of us telling you this will change your mind. The good news is that you're young and single, so it's far better to learn this lesson now, rather than when your QOL affects more than just you.

    As far as your actual decision, I don't think either path is a bad choice. The 340 will be a ton of fun, some great experience, and I'm sure it'll be far more memorable than simply instructing for another couple of months and hopping over to the regionals. And there's a lot of value in that - there's truth in the old adage about the journey being more important than the destination.

    Trouble is, when the destination is the airlines, it's risky to d!ck around too much with the journey. Especially when the hiring wave is going on *right now*. I flew 340s and 421s for a couple of years, and it was the most challenging and rewarding flying I've done in my career. Problem is, the computers don't care, and the computers are the gatekeepers to an airline interview. Once you're in the interview, that 340 time might help when a human is talking to you face to face, but the interview isn't the hard part - getting the interview is (I'm talking about the majors here). And that computer that's pulling your resume from a stack of thousands doesn't see a 340 any differently than a Seminole.

    So when it comes to getting on a seniority list of a major as quickly as possible, I think the safest decision is to just instruct to 1500 and jump to the regional of your choice. Once you're there, keep checking boxes for the computers. Upgrade and get TPIC as soon as you can. Become a check airman as soon as you can. Go to job fairs. Keep your nose clean. Apply apply apply. Delta might be your first choice, but cast a wide net, and make decisions on where to work once you have the job in hand. Your Dad will obviously be a huge asset here as well.

    I really want to tell you to go have fun in the 340 - that's kind of the path I took, and I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything. I did a lot of things flying corporate and charter that I'll never experience at my airline. But that also happened in a time where the 121 world was stagnant, and my detours didn't hurt my overall career progression all that much. Yeah, there are fantastic corporate jobs out there - some even as good as the legacy jobs - but based on what I've seen on this board, I think even if you had that job, you'd always be looking over the fence at your Dad and his 777. That's my impression at least. And if that's really what you want to do - go get it. You're in a good position to do so, or at least as good a position as you can be. Just stay focused, and keep checking boxes for the damned computers. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  32. taters

    taters Pattern Altitude

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    If you really want the airlines I would get to a regional with a reasonably fast upgrade, and close base. I also did the corporate thing during the lost decade. I wouldnt go back to that for all the tea in China, it was great flying/pay/QOL but something was always missing.

    TPIC = good
    type rated TPIC= better
    Part 121 type rated TPIC =Best
     
  33. Cpt_Kirk

    Cpt_Kirk En-Route

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    Based on experience, what are the chances of being picked up by a major, directly from corporate? Skipping regionals altogether.
     
  34. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    My dad says almost all the co pilots he's flown with are either from the regionals or military
     
  35. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Yea now that I'm thinking of it, Ill probably want to go to the airlines. I'll probably bite the bullet and just fly the Seminole that my school has.
     
  36. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    If you have the basic numbers, you should be able to get on with a regional right now. I get 3 offers a week, Express Jet mails me post cards.:dunno:
     
  37. taters

    taters Pattern Altitude

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    Its happens very infrequently, not that it cant happen but its a very tall order...hell even with prior 121 or military its still a tall order and cut-throat competitive.

    You will always hear those "my buddy stories" but the reality is its less than a 5% chance if you just have pure P91 time. At the last WIA conference Delta said flat out they don't hire civilian pilots without 121 or 135 time.


    The Majors have to have something to measure you to their standard by and prior 121 or military makes it very seamless for them to do so .
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
  38. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Yea I still need the multi and total time. I qualify for every other requirement for the restricted ATP. Once I get to 1400 and 25 multi I'll start applying.
     
  39. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I'm seeing ads for 1200, "No ATP Written? No Problem."
     
  40. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    If by major you really mean legacy or SWA - like taters said it's not easy. A lot of hiring at legacies right now is being driven by preferential interviews or flows from the regionals, or from the military. It's hard to be hired directly off the street even with a lot of 121 experience. I do have a friend that made the leap to my airline, but he was crazy qualified - Chief Pilot, flew Gulfstreams all over the world, 10 type ratings, and so on. Even then, I got the interview in less than a quarter of the time it took him to get his, and I didn't have half the background he did. But I had 121 time.

    But I *do* think it's more possible if you look at the LCCs - JetBlue, Virgin America, or Spirit. Lots of pure corporate/charter guys get hired over there, and it might be a more palatable place to hang your hat and get 121 experience than a regional airline. I have a few friends that have done that, and two plan on sticking out their careers there (both are at JetBlue).