What questions to ask when buying first plane/LSA?

[Daleandee]

I guess what I am trying to say is that if the original problem is that the manufacturer no longer exists and you cannot get anything approved, if the plane is pretty much as it was when it was originally purchased, you will not have any problems moving it to E-LSA category and taking it from there …

You may have an answer to a question that I'm not clear about.

I understand about moving from SLSA to ELSA and that all the maintenance can be done by anyone. The inspection requires someone (owner) with an inspection certificate. Still, some have insisted that if the plane has a Rotax engine that the owner cannot do certain work on the engine per restrictions set forth by Rotax. One of those restriction is "splitting the case" or rebuilding the engine.

My experimental has a Corvair conversion and I'm perfectly free to do any and all maintenance required including rebuilding or installing a B&M 250 blower supercharger.

Are those owners of experimental aircraft with Rotax engines bound to the rules Rotax sets for for the engines on the SLSA planes after they are moved to ELSA?

 

[Bell206]

Still, some have insisted that if the plane has a Rotax engine that the owner cannot do certain work on the engine per restrictions set forth by Rotax.

As a manufacturer, Rotax can't "mandate" who does work on any experimental. Even on TC'd aircraft OEMs can't mandate who works on what unless there is a regulation requiring who.

 

[Daleandee]

As a manufacturer, Rotax can't "mandate" who does work on any experimental. Even on TC'd aircraft OEMs can't mandate who works on what unless there is a regulation requiring who.

That's the way I've always understood it. Not sure where I read that but I believe the builder was in the UK so maybe the regs are different there. Not too much matter to me as a 912/914 isn't the engine for my purposes. I believe they are really great engines but the installs are quite involved and the high RPM at cruise would remind me of the days I flew two-stroke engines.

 

[Warmi]

The way I understand is that Rotax cannot force you to do anything ( unless your engine is still on warranty in which case the same rules apply like with every manufacturer of anything -they won’t honor it if your break their rules)
I think the confusion comes from the fact that if you are working on an LSA plane, you are bound to follow all maintenance rules set by the manufacturer and most of them simply say “ as far as engine related maintenance, follow what Rotax says “ - a reasonable approach which effectively forces you to follow Rotax rules but then again , that only applies to LSAs , if you are ELSA then you are not bound by manufacturer rules anyway.

Here is an example of my plane manual …

 

[Sundancer]

Yes then remove any mods that were installed post manufacture that violate “as manufactured” status and then after you have it approved and moved to E-ELSA , do whatever mods you want.
I mean at some point , if whoever owned the plane before went nuts end ended up with tons of illegal mods that preclude you from having it certified “as manufactured” ,it would be wise to walk away but that’s true with any plane that has been taken out of whatever regulations and rules apply to it …

I guess what I am trying to say is that if the original problem is that the manufacturer no longer exists and you cannot get anything approved, if the plane is pretty much as it was when it was originally purchased, you will not have any problems moving it to E-LSA category and taking it from there …

It's the not knowing - absent the airworthiness certificate and logs it's tough to evaluate. I can find the original equipment list, having made contact with a former employee of the manufacturer, but I'd have to have the current configuration for comparison; ie: the AC and logs. He did mention he'd replaced the engine with a newer version of the same power plant - legal? Or not? I dunno. It also APPEARS he may have made a couple avionics upgrades, as well. The airplane is nice and clearly well tended. But it's a walk away - I'm not pulling an engine and/or doing a search for 15 year old panel items.

 

[Warmi]

It's the not knowing - absent the airworthiness certificate and logs it's tough to evaluate. I can find the original equipment list, having made contact with a former employee of the manufacturer, but I'd have to have the current configuration for comparison; ie: the AC and logs. He did mention he'd replaced the engine with a newer version of the same power plant - legal? Or not? I dunno. It also APPEARS he may have made a couple avionics upgrades, as well. The airplane is nice and clearly well tended. But it's a walk away - I'm not pulling an engine and/or doing a search for 15 year old panel items.

By definition, you can replace an item ( engine, piece of avionics) with the same model - I mean any sort of maintenance ( which often involves not just fixing but also replacing broken items ) would not be possible if you had to obtain MOA for various maintenance activity.

The fact that plane is lacking logs is definitely a red flag - but that’s no different than with any certified plane …

 

[FastEddieB]

I understand about moving from SLSA to ELSA and that all the maintenance can be done by the owner with a light sport inspection certificate.

Not quite right. With an E-LSA - or any Experimental aircraft, I believe - no certificate is required to do any maintenance on it.

The Light Sport Repairman - Inspection certificate just allows the holder to do the Annual Condition Inspections on a specific E-LSA they own. Requires a 16 hour course.

The Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance certificate allows the holder to maintain any LSA*. Requires a 120 hour course.

*To add to the confusion, some simple legacy aircraft are technically LSA’s by definition. However, they cannot be converted to E-LSA status and have the same maintenance requirements as any other certificated aircraft and cannot be maintained by a Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance holder. Except those items listed in CFR 43.3, of course.

 

[Bell206]

To add to the confusion,

I've found an easy way to reduce the confusion on LSA maintenance requirements is to follow the certification of the aircraft. With LSA as the main category (operated by a sport pilot) there are 4 sub-categories: TC'd LSA, E/AB LSA, SLSA, ELSA. So applying the additional label vs generic LSA tends to keep things separate in my experience.

. I believe that’s an 80 hour course

Some ratings require 120 hours of instruction.

 

[FastEddieB]

Some ratings require 120 hours of instruction.

I stand corrected - it is a 120 hour course. Modified post to reflect that.

 

[tsts4]

I stand corrected - it is a 120 hour course. Modified post to reflect that.

Technically it's 80 to 120 hours depending on the class of LSA aircraft, but the 120hr version is germane to the discussion here.

 

[Daleandee]

Not quite right. With an E-LSA - or any Experimental aircraft, I believe - no certificate is required to do any maintenance on it.

I know that but certainly did not state it correctly. Thanks for the catch!

Edited my original post ...

 

[Sundancer]

By definition, you can replace an item ( engine, piece of avionics) with the same model - I mean any sort of maintenance ( which often involves not just fixing but also replacing broken items ) would not be possible if you had to obtain MOA for various maintenance activity.

The fact that plane is lacking logs is definitely a red flag - but that’s no different than with any certified plane …

He may have the logs and AC - he stopped communicating when I asked, though. Again, upgrades are not maintenance, or like-for-like replacements. My intuition is the rules may be a surprise to him, at least to some extent. He seemed a straight shooter in our email comms - only going silent after I brought up the mod approval requirements.