What questions to ask when buying first plane/LSA?

Baked Potato

Baked Potato

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Baked Potato
Hello all. At current rate I believe this weekend warrior can get a sport certificate within the next year. My issue: LSA do not seem to be readily-available to rent. To fly one now I have to drive about 45 mins to the second-nearest airpark, and am limited to its availability (and the availability of the CFIs).

Being a student with no experience in aircraft ownership - what questions should I be asking sellers? What else should I be looking for?

My budget is not astronomical, though I will have no problem getting approved for a loan from a creditworthiness perspective. I can handle down payment. Listings like this catch my eye pretty often.

What are the items that ownership involves that I may not be considering? I plan on reading this book or similar, but in the meantime, is owning something like an affordable LSA more trouble than it's worth? I'm not sure if hangar space is easy to obtain near me, so I'm looking at tie-down rates most likely (GAI). Is it ever an issue finding parts for these planes, and if so, are some brands better than others? I'd love something like an RV-12 but I see planes like the linked Remos G3, Flight Design CTs, Tecnams, etc for slightly lower prices often. I've heard that Skycatchers can be hard to source parts for (true?). Any brands I should steer clear of?

I'd like to do light preventative maintenance like oil changes, etc myself if possible, but am not a mechanic and am not immediately interested in getting the cert to perform the annual myself. However ultimately if I could "shadow" an A&P and go that route some time in the future I'm open to that if it saves massive amounts of time/money.

Any info is welcome, as I am brand new at this. Also please let me know if I'm likely over my head and will get myself into trouble, but conceptually this would seem like a dream come true if I actually pull this off.
 
Hangars will be a multi-year wait in this area, get on the list(s) now.

There are light sports (ercoupes, luscombes) and there are light sports (CTSW, RV12). Older stuff will require more maintenance than newer stuff.

You could do worse than a 15 year old CT or similar. Nothing wrong with Skycatchers but they are orphaned.

If you get something that was born as a SLSA, you can convert it to ELSA.

Doing your own oil changes isn't a bad thing to do, but won't save you much money in the grand scheme of things. If you want to do more than just preventive maintenance, however, you can get a light sport repairman cert in a lot less time than you can get an A&P. Rotax also has a similar course.

The combination of an ELSA and a light sport repairman cert is very enticing.
 
There’s a lot of resources out there that discuss aircraft ownership. You can start by googling “aircraft ownership spreadsheet” that you can download to get a feel for all the costs involved: loan, hangar/tie down, insurance, maintenance, operating costs, etc, etc.

As far as what to ask a potential seller, my advice is to become knowledgeable about the particular make and model you’re interested in. That process will go a long way to equipping you to be an informed buyer. Regardless, get a thorough prebuy done by a shop/A&P of your choosing and not one suggested or used by the seller.
 
Thanks @tsts4 - I guess that changes my approach? I am not really "knowledgeable" about any particular make - my school has an RV-12 but I don't have experience in any other LSA. At the moment I'm looking simply at good deals, but you're saying I should narrow down to one model then wait for specimens to pop up for sale? Many of these planes in this category and price don't seem to last too long on the market.
 
Baked Potato said:
Thanks @tsts4 - I guess that changes my approach? I am not really "knowledgeable" about any particular make - my school has an RV-12 but I don't have experience in any other LSA. At the moment I'm looking simply at good deals, but you're saying I should narrow down to one model then wait for specimens to pop up for sale? Many of these planes in this category and price don't seem to last too long on the market.
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Well yeah, timing has a lot to do with it. But do you really want to buy a make/model that you know nothing about? That’s tantamount to buying it because it has gold stripes or is a fantastic shade of blue. All planes have pros and cons in flying characteristics, maintainability, operating costs, and lots of other factors. IMO Acquisition cost is just the tip of the iceberg in the ownership calculation and shouldn’t be the only factor or even the major factor in deciding what to buy, or even to buy at all.
 
Ok, understood. The issue is, then, being able to quantify the differences between LSAs that I see for sale. Many of them don't result in much substantive literature when googling the year/model.

At this moment, my main mission is to be able to replicate this unbelievable feeling of flight, on demand, rather than relying on the (scarce) availability of aircraft that a sport cert holder has access to at this time and place. Another way if saying that at this stage I'm not picky.

My understanding is that in a couple of years things may be different when Mosaic is updated. But that's still an unknown quantity and I'm not sure if I can wait 2 years to know what my options may be at that point.
 
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Don't limit your search to LSA-registered aircraft; as mentioned above there are also older lightplanes (Cub, Taylorcraft, Champ, etc.) that are LSA compliant, though also as mentioned above maintenance may be more of an issue. My first plane was a T-Craft, there was no LSA then. There are also many LSA compliant homebuilts, and being experimental you can save a ton on maintenance. But if you must tie it down outdoors, you probably don't want a fabric airplane. Identify hangar availability first. Get your tailwheel endorsement, it'll vastly increase the pool of eligible aircraft.

An option if hangar space is an issue is an airplane with folding wings, then you can keep it at home for free and trailer it to the airport, or keep it inside an enclosed trailer at the airport at the outdoor tiedown rate (I did this when I had a Kolb).

GeorgeC said:
If you want to do more than just preventive maintenance, however, you can get a light sport repairman cert in a lot less time than you can get an A&P. Rotax also has a similar course.

The combination of an ELSA and a light sport repairman cert is very enticing.
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You don't need the repairman cert to do maintenance on a ELSA, anybody can work on an experimental. The repairman cert (the short course) only allows you to do the annual condition inspection.
 
One thing you can do is ask here and on make specific forums (like Vans Air Force for all things RV) for owner experiences on specific models that pique your interest.
 
The first question is one you should ask yourself: “What is my mission?” Understanding how you will use the plane will help narrow your choices. Establishing a budget will narrow it a bit more.

Once you’ve narrowed the list a bit, start researching the candidate models. Look into service bulletins, ADs, etc. Find out if there’s a type club or owner’s group and join; these can be a wealth of information. Make sure you can find a local A&P that will work on the plane if it’s something unusual. (In some areas it might be tough to find someone knowledgeable about Rotax engines, for example.)

Also check on insurance. Coverage will vary a bit by make and model.
 
If you're larger than average, learn about useful load. Also, take cockpit width into consideration. I'm a few signals bigger than the average pilot so I always consider those things. I'm training in a Evektor sportstar. It's a great training plane,I'd want something faster for my own plane.
 
Generally RV 12s will be on the cheaper side with everything else being equal ( hours , year etc ) than most modern European LSAs.

I was looking for one back in 2017 and eventually settled on this one https://www.tl-ultralight.cz/en/ultralight-aircraft/tl-2000-sting-s4

5 years and 550 hours later I still enjoy every minute of it and fly it regularly… It is not a fast mover , most modern LSAs will give you performance somewhere around Cessna 172 or so but is much more comfortable than most GA planes , definitely more fun to fly and pretty economical - I fly for fun almost exclusively so this works out for me perfectly.

If you stick with most common brands like RVs , Flight Design, Tecnam, Remos , Sportcruiser etc you won’t have significant issues with parts or service … at least in my case it has been pretty smooth sailing so far.
 
Baked Potato said:
I'd like to do light preventative maintenance like oil changes, etc myself if possible,
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One little gotcha - if you get something like a Champ, Cub, etc. with a standard airworthiness cert, you will have to get an A&P to sign off what would otherwise be "preventative maintenance" if you have a sport pilot ticket. E-LSA / S-LSA / E-AB are a different story.

Is there an A&P that you may be using? I assume they would be comfortable with a Rotax if that is what you are flying now, but you may be at some other airport?

Baked Potato said:
I will have no problem getting approved for a loan
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You may consider a less expensive aircraft - hangar, insurance, maintenance can add up if you have a payment on top of it all.

How many seats do you need? There are a lot of single seat E-AB out there for a lot less than the S-LSAs. Or, Avid Flyers, for example get you two seats for less. But, personally, I would stick to those with the Rotax 912 or a Lycoming/Continental and not a two stroke engine. Others may disagree. Compare empty and gross weights before you plunk down cash.
 
Thanks @Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe . Looks like I should check with the facilities at GAI to ensure that they have experience with Rotax engines.

Two seats are a must for me, as I'd like to go places with the wife and the occasional friend or family member.
 
Aren't you lucky, flying in the DC SFRA. So you'll need a plane with an electrical system, transponder, and ADS-B out.
 
Dana said:
Aren't you lucky, flying in the DC SFRA. So you'll need a plane with an electrical system, transponder, and ADS-B out.
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Yeah, I know, so lucky right? :D
FDK is an option for me, though it's like 20 minutes extra drive. But most of my training has been in the SFRA so I'm ready for that.
 
If you end up with something with a rotax, I'd take it to CSP at W29 for mx. CSP also has a shop at FME but I don't know if that facility is rotax-savvy. Worth calling and asking.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
But, personally, I would stick to those with the Rotax 912 or a Lycoming/Continental and not a two stroke engine.
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The ability to run E10 in a rotax beats having to hunt around for E0 for the O-200 in my heavy sport...
 
I was in your position several years ago... so I have been there done that.
Tips for you, and I hope I am not repeating what others are advising above... esp the "Mission" question. I wanted to travel, so an ultralight was out of the question for ex. I had/have a PPL so I did not go the "Sport Pilot License" route. I was attracted to "Light Sport" Planes because they were new and I like the fuel economy of the Rotax and the Avionics that are prevalent in Light Sport planes.

I ended up buying a new Flight Design. I owned it for 2.5 years and put 240 hours on it... loved every minute. Things to know however...

First: in MY opinion, it is harder to land (well) than the standard issue Cessna and Piper at every flight school. It took me until the 90 hours mark to feel extremely comfortable in all landing situations. And adjusting the flight controls for cross wind takeoffs is absolutely critical. And never ever take off with wind behind you... early tough lessons.

Second: One of the reasons why I chose Flight Design was because the Dealer was a 40 minute flight and the service culture was superb. With that said, there are very few Rotaxes in my area, therefore I would be hard pressed to find a service center within a reasonable flying/driving distance.

Third, I would never buy an LSA if the company went out of business. The plane you cited in your writeup for example is a fine plane, but how would you buy Parts for it if you have the inevitable bump? Mooney is out of business but the installed base is so huge that finding a part is probably not a terrible proposition. A carbon fiber plane without Parts support? Forget it.

Fourth: CALL your insurance broker before you purchase anything.
 
lightlamp said:
Oh, interesting. Recently spent some time in one. Do you have trouble with throttle friction? How's the front wheel shimmy?

I was surprised, it pops into the air at under 45kts. So spritely, even compared to the RV12!
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I lubricate throttle every annual so no problems so far ( if anything it was too rigid before I started lubricating ) and as far as front wheel shimmy, there is a special nose wheel snubber that is designed to dampen freewheeling of the nose wheel - it needs to replaced now and then ( it is made out of rubber )
 
Good luck BakedPotato!

My $0.02 worth is to first decide whether you prefer high or low wing. That will help set you search direction. Then, try to find the airplanes you are considering close to you so you can go take a look in person (with your wife, by the way!!). You may eliminate some easily that way. Once you have the selection narrowed down, join a type club so you can get good, detailed information on the ones you think you will be happy with.

I read recently about a guy flying a Skycatcher across the country (I think it was here on yhe forum), so just because it is an LSA doesn’t mean you can’t travel in it if you want.

RV’s have a big following, so if you like low wing, and they fit physically, an RV might be a good choice. Have fun with the looking!
 
Thanks @somorris . After my last lesson I'm leaning low wing - it was my first time in an RV, and I have to say that after takeoff I was legitimately getting teary-eyed watching the houses pass by underneath us. The wide bubble canopy and seemingly unlimited field of view, how the low wing is behind where you're sitting, the fact that we left the ground after traveling what felt like six inches of runway... it was like our own little fighter plane and adding the feeling of the culmination of decades of daydreaming and the still-present disbelief that I'm actually doing this. I hope this feeling never goes away.
 
38 years later, same feeling (probably the main reason I almost bankrupted myself to buy a plane!)
 
Baked Potato said:
DC Metro Area, Maryland

I fly mostly out of GAI
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Gotcha.

I helped a client find a Luscombe back in April of this year. He's flying it around now. In my experience, patience, knowledge, and being willing to walk away from stuff is key.
In this case, my client was getting a tailwheel endorsement in my Luscombe, decided that he loved the plane, and started looking. I found out he was serious when I got a call and he was halfway across the country trying to decide if he was going to buy one and have me help him bring it home... he ended up getting one closer to home.

1. Looking for planes closer to you is a lot easier to make a low-pressure decision, makes it easier to go inspect them yourself, or with a knowledgeable friend who has been around aviation longer.
2. Enlisting the help of a savvy old-timer will probably save you money.
3. Research the types you are interested in, watch advertising frequently, including places less popular, but be very patient.
4. Fly as many of the types of planes you are interested in as you can, or ask people with broader knowledge bases for recommendations.
 
Questions for yourself
-Budget up front and budget for first year repairs
-Usage (frequency, # of pax, distance you’d like to fly, how many hours do you want to fly to reach that distance, speed)
-Parking location (costs, availability, reasonable to get there to use it or not, to do your own mx you’ll need a hangar, with heat if your winters are cold)
-Ownership structure (1 or more, LLC or individual etc)
-Insurance, can you get insured and meet the requirements, training requirements, etc
-Where will you search for a plane? Will you see it before buying it? Will you fly it back yourself or hire someone? Who will do the pre-buy inspection?
-Who will do your maintenance at your home airport? Mechanics can be difficult to get their availability to work on your airplane especially these days.

Questions for Seller
-Airframe hours, prop hours, engine hours
-TBO hours, last date of overhaul and who did it? (Ideally you’d want a recent overhaul or not something 20+ years ago)
-Fuel consumption, oil consumption and cruise speed
-Complete logbooks? Ask for digital copies and look over them. Write out all of your required inspections and dates. “AVIATE”
-Ask for digital copy of POH and Weight & Balance, read thru it to learn about the airplane
-Any accidents?
-What ADs are on the plane, what’s upcoming and due, you should double check the FAA AD website as well
-Last annual and IFR certification dates
-What kind of avionics, 6 pack, radios, do radios intercom to all seats, does it have adsb in/out, etc.
-Old circuit breakers or new? Old lights or new LED? Old ELT or new? Stuff adds up.
-Exterior and interior condition, usually people score it 1-10 with 10 being the best.
-When was the last item overhauled and is it the old or new one? Starter, alternator, fuel pump, vacuum pump, magnetos, etc. Adds UP FAST if they are old and you need to buy new.
-Was the plane hangared? Where did the plane live? If Florida, then you have potential corrosion issues. $$$
-Engine type and last compressions. Lycoming engines you want in the 70s. Continental can be a little lower 60s+.
-Any oil analysis reports?
 
One of the older LSA aircraft is the CT line ,they have a good website . You might want to check it out The Ctflyer.
 
This is all incredibly helpful information, everyone. Looks like I came to the right place :)

@mandm That's a great list. Saving that.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention this. For any aircraft you're considering, you can order all the data the FAA has on it here:
https://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/nd/

I think it's about ten bucks to get a CD that contains all the registration history, all the prior bills of sale, lien history, the airworthiness documentation, STCs, major repairs and alterations, etc.

Well worth it for any particular plane you're serious about.
 
Low wing is sporty, but the heat in a bubble canopy can be significant.

RV12 and The Aircraft Factory Sling were considerations when I purchased my plane. If I were looking at aircraft today, another I would add is the Bushcat high wing. The Bushcat is quite affordable as a new aircraft (as far as LSA aircraft goes).
 
Crashnburn said:
If you're larger than average, learn about useful load. Also, take cockpit width into consideration. I'm a few signals bigger than the average pilot so I always consider those things. I'm training in a Evektor sportstar. It's a great training plane,I'd want something faster for my own plane.
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I'm a larger pilot 280 and went with the Bristell for this reason. 51" cockpit and plenty roomy. Don't go crazy and avoid the 915 you have +550bs
 
Yep, that's a heavy sport. The CH650 is the light sport. @Stan Cooper
 
Ok, I'm still kind of confused on these classifications then. Under Classifications it says Light Sport. Would I need to see its registration cert before I could know for sure?

Asking for someone who has only a sport certificate in mind. That person is me.
 
Baked Potato said:
Would I need to see its registration cert before I could know for sure?
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Well, it's a Canadian N# (actually I guess that would be a C#), so I'm not sure what you could learn. LSA is a US category anyway, not a Canadian one. I suspect it's just the seller's (erroneous) opinion that it would be eligible in the US for LSA. I don't really know, but I imagine you'd have difficulty getting a Canadian experimental into the US registry.

OTOH, you might consider moving to Canada and buying it. Just how committed are you to flying? ;)
 
Baked Potato said:
Would I need to see its registration cert before I could know for sure?
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The registration would probably say Experimental Amateur Built. Tells you nothing.
To know if it qualifies as an LSA you would have to compare to the definition in the regulations.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-...art-1/section-1.1#p-1.1(Light-sport aircraft)

The kickers would likely be the maximum take off weight (1320 max) and "A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level." It may be faster at altitude,and that's OK. But then the chances that an E-AB has an accurate number of the actual sea level VH documented somewhere may be slim. You just have to give it your best guess...

For the CH250 it seems unlikely that something with an IO-360 is going to squeeze in. The kit spec says max weight of 1450 which is too heavy.

(Definitions in Canada are different...)
 
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