docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Well, thanks for correcting me about something I didn't write. Appreciate that.
What education is really necessary?
- Thread starter billypudenz
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Well, thanks for correcting me about something I didn't write. Appreciate that.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
If you don't want to be an engineer, don't even bother.
We design, build, and test things. We take interesting new developments in physics, electronics, materials, chemistry and put them to use in industry and commercial applications.
google gorilla glass for something newly designed that you use every day. An engineer did that.
Checkout_my_Six
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what are you into?....do you tinker and make stuff?....work on cars?....like to build things? You might like engineering. But, it can be office work too with some to little field work. I've done just about a little of everything from analyzing aircraft maintenance data, design work, setting up manufacturing lines, failure analysis of all kinds of devices.....
Flying would be fun....but, then again, it'd become like work after a while too.
Yeah, some of the barrista's I know have five-year B.A. degrees in Art History and are fun to visit with while they make my coffee.
Checkout_my_Six
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How old are you? What relevant experience do you already have that you can bring to aircraft manufacturing? What capacity of aircraft manufacturing are you considering? The field contains a large spectrum of disciplines.
Checkout_my_Six
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then AIM high....and get an engineering degree and fly jets in the AirForce.
Yeah, thing is, that degree gets you a pilots job too if you want to pursue it. Nobody in aviation gives a flying **** what the monkey up fronts degree is in, just so they have one to tick off a box.
billypudenz
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Oh, so I'm assuming you can't get into this industry without some sort of tie? But I was saying could aircraft manufacturing be something you could get a degree in so that you would have a backup career?
Fearless Tower
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As others have said, the degree itself is not as important in corporate flying. It is important if and when you have to look for work outside of flying. Definitely something to consider.I am really interested in becoming a pilot (more specifically a corporate pilot or charter pilot). However, there is a lot of talk between whether or not a bachelor's degree (with any major) is really needed to get a job once out of training. I know that there's a lot of good universities in the U.S. to receive flight training, but even without adding flight training costs to their tuition, it is outrageous. It wouldn't be that bad if any good universities were in my home state of Iowa (besides maybe Dubuque but they still want $35,000 just for annual tuition). So, I looked at North Dakota because it was somewhat close. I then found out that they don't give a discounted tuition to only Iowa. Of course, all the other surrounding states get a discounted tuition except for Iowa. So, my state gets screwed over with $26,000 annual tuition.
All of this was when I was thinking about corporate aviation. Since I don't seem to be finding any good deals with these universities, I started thinking about becoming a charter pilot instead.
Anyway, now I'm starting rethink if I really need a bachelor's degree. I would much rather just take flight training from one of the airports in my state that offer training for many different ratings. I would just like to know what you all think about it. Is it really necessary to get a bachelor's degree, or should I go to a 2-year college that offers flight training, or get flight training from one of the airports around Iowa? I just feel so defeated.
Please let me know what you think! Thank you!
Another thing to consider is the new ATP requirements and how you plan to meet that since much of the corporate flying world is under part 135. I would highly recommend looking at a 4 year university with a flight training program that qualifies for the Restricted ATP minimums. That is going to get you into a paying pilot job the quickest. Also, while you say your goal is a corporate flying job, I'd suggest considering taking a regional airline job first as a way to get paid to build time.
Here is the weird thing about professional aviation these days: right now the job boards are full of corporate pilot jobs with requirements wanting at least 2500-4500 total time and there are a lot of pilots competing for those jobs.
At the same time, regional airlines are hiring almost anyone who meets the new ATP minimums. If you meet the requirements and don't make a fool of yourself in the interview, you'll probably get the job.
Regional airlines may not pay as well as many corporate gigs, but flying is expensive - you might as well get paid to build those hours you will need to be competitive in the corporate world.
Checkout_my_Six
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not recomended....IMHO
get a degree in one of the basic engineering fields, Mechanical or Electrical or Computer Science. Any one of those will get you jobs in any industry with appropriate experience.
Don't get a degree in aviation or aircraft anything (way too specialized).....that's my contribution to this.
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jordane93
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I just saw that the OP was looking to get into 135 operations so I'm not sure how that works. You would know better than me. But pretty much for any major airline you'll need a Bachelor's.
Ghery
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Ghery Pettit
Well then.....be an engineer and fly for fun. You'll make more money.
I just retired from a major semi-conductor manufacturer the beginning of last week. Graduated with a BSEE 40 years ago. What do engineers do? There's been a poster floating around Facebook the past week or so that says it all. "Without engineers physics would just be a philosophy."
As Docmirror said above, engineers to just about everything. We take theories and make reality. Personally, I specialize in electromagnetic compatibility. Keep everything working without causing harmful interference or suffering same. And while I retired from Intel (that's the major semi-conductor manufacturer) last week I'm staying active on national and international standards committees and, through the end of this year, the Board of Directors of the IEEE EMC Society (I'm the Immediate Past President). I'll consult to keep my hand in the game, too. I enjoy this stuff too much to just quit.
Oh, and now I have more time to fly.
Get a degree in something you enjoy. Gives you something to fall back on if plan A doesn't pan out.
JHW
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you can do almost anything you want. Desiging things, construction management, manufacturing processes, field service, sales, accident investigation. A mainstream (mechanical/civil/electrical/chemical) engineering degree is a ticket to a lot of opportunities that you are unlikely to get any other way, yet remaining a good fit for many other roles that people without the degree are also seeking. At this stage in your life you don't have any idea what opportunities might be out there. A college degree and some summer internships will open your eyes to all sorts of opportunities. And you've got a pretty good school right there at iowa state.
An example: The company i work for now (with >120K employees) pretty much hires people for management roles with 1 of 2 degrees: engineering or accounting. A few years ago i wanted to hire a guy from the outside into our group that had exactly the experience we needed, he had written his master's thesis on the very process we were using and he had a few years of work experience in other lines of work that we do. I was unable to hire him because the words on his diploma read "chemistry" and not "chemical engineering". Rules are rules, it might not be fair but it's something to consider when choosing a field of study that will set the course for the rest of your life.
James331
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James331
Very much so, I'm single pilot medevac, so it's a little diffrent then normal 135 stuff, but there is a reson I'm here and not in the airlines.
If you're aiming at 135 you don't need the degree, I have one, nobody seems to care about it. My current employer did a insane background check on me, verified everything.. Except my degree.
Fearless Tower
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Agree...but you WILL need the ATP (and the ATP-CPT now)...and you might as well do the 4-year university program to be eligible for the reduced ATP mins.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Do I have this right four years of university to cut 500 hours off the ATP requirements? 500 hours is a lot easier and cheaper(free if you are working) then four years of college.
James331
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James331
Real ATP mins are even a little low for the higher paying jobs.
For the ROI from a aviation degree, or a BS in BS, the R-ATP doesn't make sense to bother with. It will only help you at getting a job with the bottom feeder regionals who will take anyone with a pulse and ATP written anywhere.
Fearless Tower
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Yes, correct (as I mentioned above).
But, (as we both have stated) because the corporate hiring is far more competitive (need higher times), you might as well start with a regional at the lower R-ATP mins and get paid while building the total and turbine time you'll need to be competitive in the corporate world.
Regional pay does stink, but you'll make more than flight instructing or hauling jumpers.
My point is simply that right now I think going to the 4 year aviation school and starting out with a regional is the quickest/most affordable route to a good 135 job.
Even if you don't want to go 121, the small box haulers (like Ameriflight) are going to be begging for anyone who can meet ATP mins.
If not engineering per se, you can get a degree with an A&P program that will get you in the door on manufacturing and repair of aircraft; thing is, if you are not already a mechanically inclined person, you probably won't enjoy it or do it well. It will also help you get some of the more interesting 'bush' flying jobs. You can't get into the better jobs without a hook up, however you can create the hook ups by putting yourself in the right place. Ramp Rats end up with some of the sweetest jobs in aviation.
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billypudenz
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Alright so I looked up some info about the ATP mins, and I found this interesting...
"The new rule also establishes a new ATP certificate with restricted privileges for multiengine airplane only. The restricted ATP certificate can only be used to serve as a first officer at an air carrier. To obtain that certificate an applicant must be at least 21 years old, hold a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating, complete an ATP certification training program, and pass the ATP written and knowledge tests. For the restricted ATP certificate, applicants do get some relief as they are required to have at least 750 hours total time as a military pilot; at least 1,000 hours total time and a bachelor’s degree with an aviation major; at least 1,250 hours total time and an associate’s degree with an aviation major; or 1,500 hours total time as pilot. " (http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/July/10/FAA-releases-final-ATP-certification-rule)
So, I could still get 250 hours off and still be able to go to a 2-year college where they might offer one/some of the trades I mentioned earlier. It would be a lot cheaper tuition anyway, so I wouldn't have to worry quite so much about that and worry more about the flight training costs and whatnot. (instead of paying $20,000-$30,000 annual tuition at a 4-year plus the flight training costs-which at UND was like $65,000). And I would still be able to go into another career that I mentioned earlier.
I feel like this would be a good route (as long as a bachelor's degree really isn't helping you out, like James331 said):
I'd be more interested in what a 2-year would offer (trades) instead of a 4-year.
MAKG1
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MAKG
Well, if you really want to close all those doors, no one is going to stop you.
Virtually all the questions being asked here are the wrong ones, and thoroughly miss the point of an education.
Many people end up in very different careers than they thought they would have when they graduated from high school. Pardon the bluntness, but you really have no idea what you want at that age, and making a highly restrictive choice is something you will very likely live to regret.
The point of education is not getting a job. You'll enjoy it a lot more if you understand that. Education is not a trade school. It is understanding and knowledge. And as such is quite useful.
Virtually all the questions being asked here are the wrong ones, and thoroughly miss the point of an education.
Many people end up in very different careers than they thought they would have when they graduated from high school. Pardon the bluntness, but you really have no idea what you want at that age, and making a highly restrictive choice is something you will very likely live to regret.
The point of education is not getting a job. You'll enjoy it a lot more if you understand that. Education is not a trade school. It is understanding and knowledge. And as such is quite useful.
Checkout_my_Six
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ya but.....all those things are what I hate about academia....and IMHO is part of the "indoctrination" into institutionalized studies.
I'd prefer to learn about things that "apply" to my life and my career.....not some abstract culture, or historical thought or logic that's out dated.
those are all concepts sold as "enrichment".....to fund the University's wacky eccentric mis-fits that could never survive a paycheck outside of academia.
MAKG1
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MAKG
ya but.....all those things are what I hate about academia....and IMHO is part of the "indoctrination" into institutionalized studies.
I'd prefer to learn about things that "apply" to my life and my career.....not some abstract culture, or historical thought or logic that's out dated.
those are all concepts sold as "enrichment".....to fund the University's wacky eccentric mis-fits that could never survive a paycheck outside of academia.
Your loss. Don't impose it on others.
Things apply that you would never imagine if you limit yourself like that.
You should understand those things you do not agree with, even more than those things you do. Otherwise, you argue from ignorance.
If you think education is "indoctrination," you have missed the point as well. It is quite easily distinguishable.
When you understand historical thought, for instance, you rather quickly figure out that nothing is all that new. People were not stupid in the past, and there is much to be understood from what was and was not input to earlier decisions.
The 2 year degree with an A&P and ATP will work for qualifications, but it won't get you the jobs that require a 4 year.
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Velocity173
Just go helicopters. As long as you can read and write you're good. We're not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Fearless Tower
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You do have to be able to pat your head and rub your belly at the same time though.Just go helicopters. As long as you can read and write you're good. We're not the sharpest tool in the shed.