What determines an aircraft's useful load?

SixPapaCharlie

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My initial thought would be that HP would have something to do with it.

As we are outgrowing the CG of the traveler thanks to crazy factors like my son wanting to eat food and reproduce at the cellular level, I am starting to look at other planes (Comanches).

But because I am a POA member, I thought "Can't hurt to see what Bo has to offer"

Much to my surprise, I see bonanzas that have a lower useful load than my traveler in spite of a significantly higher HP and at least 50 lbs of rudder missing. I'm guessing this is why F-16s are only 2 seaters now. HP seems to have little to do with what a plane is allowed to lift.

What determines the UL?
 
Lots of things. the strength of the structure would be more of factor than HP, but HP leads to rate of climb which leads to safety factor, so it’s part of the equation.

if you put 1000 pounds in the plane, and then pull a 45 degree steep turn, how much weight is the structure holding? Can the wing support it? Can the fuselage support it? HP is irrelevant in that.

there are often weight limits for baggage areas and certain seats. Has nothing to do with HP.
 
Gross - Empty weight. :) Glad I could help.

I guess I'd be surprised if the typical Bo didn't have more useful as well....
 
You should have gotten the Tiger first.

My guess is the other planes carry alot more fuel, and the numbers you are seeing are based on full tanks. Depending on your range requirement, you could not go with full fuel and trade that off for payload.

Just don't come back here someday to tell us you ran out of fuel....
 
the AFM.....or you can experiment and become a test pilot. ;)
 
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The smart alec answer is who argued better: the engineering department or the marketing department?

The more (hopefully) accurate one is: the structural design. Horse power is helpful in getting stuff in the air, but the structure is what determines total weight and empty weight. Interestingly, (to me at least) earlier airframes in the aluminum monocoque line tended to be over built (which turned out to be really helpful in DC-2s, 3s and many WWII warbirds. As the engineering got smarter, they were able to use less material to get closer to the needed strength rather than overbuilt. Airframes have certification requirements that specify the various load/overload factors they had to demonstrate before receiving the certificate. Then they needed enough power to get that off the ground.

Anecdotally, when they were designing the Gossamer Albatross (human powered prize winning aircraft) where weight was absolutely critical, they kept reducing the components until they broke. Then they went back one revision to the smallest that didn't break. There was no margin for overload on that one.

Hope this helps...
 
Not just HP. Load factor on the wing, as mentioned earlier. Surface area of the wing. Type of wing. The Aerodynamics for the Naval Aviator is free on the FAA website but Dole's Flight Theory for Pilots is easier to read. Find an out of date edition (2nd, 3rd or 4th) for less than $20 on Amazon, no need to pay extortion price (over $120) for the new Jepp version.
 
Seems like stall speed would also be a factor, since it increases with weight. Even if the structure were robust enough for a given weight, if the VS1 is close to VNO the airplane won't be very useful......
 
My initial thought would be that HP would have something to do with it.

As we are outgrowing the CG of the traveler thanks to crazy factors like my son wanting to eat food and reproduce at the cellular level, I am starting to look at other planes (Comanches).

But because I am a POA member, I thought "Can't hurt to see what Bo has to offer"

Much to my surprise, I see bonanzas that have a lower useful load than my traveler in spite of a significantly higher HP and at least 50 lbs of rudder missing. I'm guessing this is why F-16s are only 2 seaters now. HP seems to have little to do with what a plane is allowed to lift.

What determines the UL?


So how much are you thinking about asking for the Traveler in this depressed, COVID-influenced buyer's market? :)
 
As we are outgrowing the CG of the traveler

Your thread title is about useful load, but your problem statement is about CG. Which issue you actually fighting?

The other replies about wing loading are on track. Surface area and wing type impact the wing loading, so they are more or less the same consideration(s).
 
Im looking for a Cherokee 6, they built a 260 & a 300. They share the same max gross, but the 300hp engine is about 75 lb heavier, so the 260 winds up with a higher useful. The earliest planes had the highest ULs, as they got into the 70s, fancier interiors, club seats, and air conditioning further porked them up. A 60s 260 usually will haul 1500-1600 lbs, but a late 70s model is often in the 1200-1300 range.

3 blade props, avionics, wheel pants, carpets, leather; it all adds up.

The curious part, is that while the 300 obviously has higher cruise speed and ceiling, people on the pa32 group claim the 260 climbs just as well or better. Not sure if I buy that.

But to answer your question max gross seems to have more to do with structure and wing loading, and hp just provides the performance.
 
My traveler has 860 lbs useful. Most tigers I have looked at are lower than that. I was digging through Bo's today and seeing a lot of 820, 850, etc.

I don't know when or for what I will sell the Grumman so that's TBD and likely in 2021. It seems like the Comanche is the best of all worlds regarding speed, price, and carrying capacity, wing on the proper location. I haven't learned all the ins and outs of the brand yet.
 
Your thread title is about useful load, but your problem statement is about CG. Which issue you actually fighting?

The other replies about wing loading are on track. Surface area and wing type impact the wing loading, so they are more or less the same consideration(s).

CG is the primary issue but if I am going to trade up, I am going to future proof as mush as possible.
 
Although sitting here thinking about it, our pa28-236 has a higher useful than the 28-141, even though it's the same airframe with a much heavier engine. I can only assume that's got to do with the 140 being underpowered, but I suppose it could be cg well. I wonder if you had a long enough runway.... or a treadmill....
 
What determines the UL?
Once you determine the weight difference between the empty weight and max gross weight it then follows to CG range, i.e., flight control authority, in how you load that weight difference. An additional limitation can be a structural limit in some cases. For example, helicopters internal useful load is calculated the same way except when you decide to fly some of that load externally via a long line then the useful load usually increases by 500-1000lbs depending on aircraft. The reason is the landing gear (skids) have a max static weight rating.
 
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My traveler has 860 lbs useful. Most tigers I have looked at are lower than that. I was digging through Bo's today and seeing a lot of 820, 850, etc.

My Tiger was 960, did some work, removed some avionics and had it weighed at annual prior to my selling it and it topped at 973. Had a body/luggage limit before the changes of about 660lbs full fuel - W&B is dirt simple with cargo limit at 120 and behind the front seats total limit including cargo of 330.

Was able to pick up 2-3 knots by having me and the passenger put are seats as far back as possible and load luggage not in the back seat but in the cargo area ...
 
My traveler has 860 lbs useful. Most tigers I have looked at are lower than that. I was digging through Bo's today and seeing a lot of 820, 850, etc.

I don't know when or for what I will sell the Grumman so that's TBD and likely in 2021. It seems like the Comanche is the best of all worlds regarding speed, price, and carrying capacity, wing on the proper location. I haven't learned all the ins and outs of the brand yet.
Following what @Jim K said, the Dakota/Pathfinder with 235HP have great useful load. I would think close to 300lbs more than your 860. I know our 182 is almost 1200 useful load and I thought some Dakota/Pathfinders are even a bit more.

My CFI has been flying with pilot who just purchased a 6/300. He loves how wide the cabin is! He sold a beautiful Bonanza for the 6/300.
 
Following what @Jim K said, the Dakota/Pathfinder with 235HP have great useful load. I would think close to 300lbs more than your 860. I know our 182 is almost 1200 useful load and I thought some Dakota/Pathfinders are even a bit more.

My CFI has been flying with pilot who just purchased a 6/300. He loves how wide the cabin is! He sold a beautiful Bonanza for the 6/300.
Mine is 1305. Damn near impossible to get out of CG
 
They're a ridiculous beast. I recently got a ride in one.. we were honking at 160 KTAS at a very modest and reasonable NA manifold pressure and under 10K altitude.. the climb rate was bonkers, hitting close to 2K on departure. The engine and prop were probably dialed in right too but the ride felt *very* smooth. Controls, solid and responsive. This plane is very well maintained though, beautiful panel, etc.

I was sold. Just wish they weren't so old and the backseat was a little deeper from a legroom perspective. Too bad Piper stopped making them... THANKS FLOOD!


RE: useful load
I've often wondered that myself with regards to max gross. You'll see in some accidents the NTSB attributes this, like in this crash here https://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/narrative.cfm?ackey=1&evid=20080123X00090 .. seriously, 24 freaking lbs? I highly doubt that the equivalent of 4 gallons AvGas had anything to materially do with the crash

With ferry permits that allow you to (in some cases grossly) exceed the max gross and some planes having max gross changes with basically little more than a paperwork change I've often wondered what trade offs designers make and what the plane can really handle stucturally. A wing is only capable of generating so much lift, so in theory if you're flying in the realm of maneuvering speed (assuming a balanced CG) the wing won't tear off, right? Then again Va does change with weight... so there's that. But isn't it like overloading a boat? As long as it's balanced the hull won't break.. it'll eventually just sink (stop flying)

Also,
I was digging through Bo's today and seeing a lot of 820, 850,
seems pitifully low.. I came across some Saratoga's that had around 1,100-1,200 lbs useful load.. pretty pathetic for a 6 passenger plane. Fill it up with tanks it's basically a 3 passenger plane.
 
Following what @Jim K said, the Dakota/Pathfinder with 235HP have great useful load. I would think close to 300lbs more than your 860. I know our 182 is almost 1200 useful load and I thought some Dakota/Pathfinders are even a bit more.

My CFI has been flying with pilot who just purchased a 6/300. He loves how wide the cabin is! He sold a beautiful Bonanza for the 6/300.

Our Dakota is 1250 useful. 72gal fuel leaves 818 for pax/bags. Still a pa28, though, which means it's best if you like all your passengers. I love the PA-24, and that would be my choice, but I need 7 seats and all the UL I can get, so that pretty much leaves an early PA32. Other options include such reasonably priced and easy to find aircraft as the Cessna 207 and Gipps Airvan. Bryan's buddy Flying Doodles has a great PA24 video.

I don't know a lot about Bo's other than being jealous of Matt Guthmiller, but I get the impression they are built like tanks, which would explain a lower UL.
 
I don't know a lot about Bo's other than being jealous of Matt Guthmiller, but I get the impression they are built like tanks, which would explain a lower UL.

I am jealous of Matt Guthmiller too! He was able to pack in passengers and cargo in one of his videos that I found really interesting. (Cargo and luggage were near the front, passengers in the most rearward seat.) And he had wingtip tanks full as well. Seems like that Bonanza could carry quite a bit.
 
My initial thought would be that HP would have something to do with it.

As we are outgrowing the CG of the traveler thanks to crazy factors like my son wanting to eat food and reproduce at the cellular level, I am starting to look at other planes (Comanches).

But because I am a POA member, I thought "Can't hurt to see what Bo has to offer"

Much to my surprise, I see bonanzas that have a lower useful load than my traveler in spite of a significantly higher HP and at least 50 lbs of rudder missing. I'm guessing this is why F-16s are only 2 seaters now. HP seems to have little to do with what a plane is allowed to lift.

What determines the UL?

Useful Load is determined by two things: Max Gross Weight and Empty Weight. Period.

Empty weight is fairly easy to figure out. Less crap attached to the plane = lower empty weight. You can put your plane "on a diet" by removing old avionics, unused wiring, and quite a few other things, some of which can get pretty expensive. Some airplanes are also built like freaking tanks (like my Mooney, which is of "metal on metal" construction) and are quite heavy empty.

I think the question you're really asking here is more about max gross weight, though, and that can be affected by many things.

Structure is one, often related to how strong the wing attachments are and the forces placed on them. One can see this in the Twin Comanche: Without tip tanks, the MGW is 3600 pounds. With tip tanks, the MGW goes up to 3725 pounds, but that last 125 pounds must all consist of fuel in the tips. Since that fuel isn't causing any extra load on the wing attach points (at least in terms of upward bending moment), it's allowed.

Certification requirements are another factor. For example, I think it was from the 172N to the 172P, the gross weight went up 100 or 150 pounds. The structure wasn't changed. What was changed is the maximum flap deflection, which was reduced from 40 degrees to 30 degrees. There is a certification requirement that planes be able to sustain a positive rate of climb under given conditions in the landing configuration for purposes of being able to achieve a successful go-around even if a mechanical issue prevented the configuration from being cleaned up. With the 30-degree flap limit, the lower drag allowed the 172 to climb away from a go-around at a higher weight, so the max gross weight was increased. Higher HP can help with this one as well.

Spin characteristics are another certification requirement. Certified aircraft are required to be able to recover from spins in a variety of load and CG conditions. The DA40 has an available increased gross weight mod that consists of a collar on the elevator pushrod to reduce up elevator travel which changes how it enters a spin and allows it to recover from spins it enters at higher weights.

So, lots of different things can be the limiting factor in max gross weight. This certainly isn't a comprehensive list. There's also plenty of examples of people doing extra testing and/or otherwise changing the limits and getting STCs for increased max gross. Sometimes, it's strictly paperwork, meaning the STC holder likely just had to do some additional flight testing to prove the plane could meet certifications as manufactured at a higher weight. @denverpilot has mentioned such a mod for the 182P, IIRC. Others, it's fairly simple mechanical mods like the aforementioned pushrod collar, the spar doublers that can be added to the Globe Swift, the VGs that allow many light twins to maintain control and climb at a lower airspeed on one engine, etc.

One other thing to consider is fuel. What you're looking for is payload, often incorrectly called "full fuel useful load". Every aircraft carries a balance between range and payload. If you look at how much fuel weight is needed to complete a trip, you'll find out what your needs really are. In the old 182 I used to fly, I'd get about 130 knots on 13 gph. That's 10 nautical miles per gallon of fuel, or about 0.6 pounds of fuel per mile. In the Mooney, I get 170 knots on 12 gph, or about 14.2nmpg or 0.42 pounds of fuel per mile. As a result, going on the same trip takes me less fuel and thus I have more ability to trade fuel weight for payload. To go to Gaston's would take me about 65 gallons of fuel with an hour reserve in the 182, while in the Mooney it only takes about 48 gallons with the same reserve. That's 17 gallons/102 pounds of fuel I can leave behind and use for payload instead.

It seems like a lot of the faster, higher-HP traveling planes have big tanks and give you more of an ability to either go really far without carrying much, or leave a bunch of fuel behind and carry a bunch of stuff a shorter distance.
I hope this was fun to read, considering it probably doesn't help your problem at all. :idea: :rofl:
 
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Our club planes and useful loads:
Bonanza (F33) - 1,045 lbs
Saratoga - 1,236 lbs
Dakota - 1,180 lbs
 
Still a pa28
that brings up a good point though, seems like the only material difference between various weights is just the engine and paperwork
 
I am jealous of Matt Guthmiller too! He was able to pack in passengers and cargo in one of his videos that I found really interesting. (Cargo and luggage were near the front, passengers in the most rearward seat.) And he had wingtip tanks full as well. Seems like that Bonanza could carry quite a bit.
I know which video you're talking about, he definitely gets excellent use out of his Bonanza. I'd like to see the W&B on some of these flights though..

frankly I've wondered that more often than not, you'll see people in naturally aspirated planes at higher altitude airports like big bear, Mammoth etc with four people and gear

Our club planes and useful loads:
Bonanza (F33) - 1,045 lbs
Saratoga - 1,236 lbs
Dakota - 1,180 lbs
call me crazy, it's certainly one of the most beautiful GA planes, but I don't find the cabin all that comfortable and after wasting hours of my life on controller and trade-a-plane have determined that the useful loads are not great.. why have six seats if there's no humanly possible way of using them and actually flying anywhere
 
My Bonanza (V35) has a useful load right around 1200lbs. The problem you will likely run into would be CG before you hit the load limit with 4 people and bags. Cruises at 170kts on about 15gph. May seem like a lot but you're cutting your time a good bit. For my Dallas run I burn the same amount of fuel as I did in my Cherokee but takes dang near half the time, so burning more isn't really an issue. It climbs like a rocket too and ridiculously comfortable. I was told to not fly a bonanza unless I wanted to buy one. haha it was true, I flew it and had to have one.

The deb's are a tad slower but believe they do not have the CG problems that the 35's have, but the 35's are down right sexy..dont argue it, its true! Oh and cue the ruddervator doom and gloom in 3...2...1...hahaha

So in true POA fashion the answer is BONANZA haha
 
So in true POA fashion the answer is BONANZA haha
I am glad all is well with the world. After one of our recent threads I was beginning to think the answer was 182!
 
Our club planes and useful loads:
Bonanza (F33) - 1,045 lbs
Saratoga - 1,236 lbs
Dakota - 1,180 lbs

I’m surprised our 182 beats your Dakota!

1134

But with full fuel in the enormous l/r tanks, that falls to...

654

:)

It was 1126 before the avionics swaps and ADF removal.
 
There's also plenty of examples of people doing extra testing and/or otherwise changing the limits and getting STCs for increased max gross. Sometimes, it's strictly paperwork, meaning the STC holder likely just had to do some additional flight testing to prove the plane could meet certifications as manufactured at a higher weight. @denverpilot has mentioned such a mod for the 182P, IIRC.

Thats the Cessna 182 STC to increase MGTOW to 3100 lbs.

Basically my understanding of that one is that Cessna themselves did whatever paperwork magic was needed to go from 2950 to 3100 because the restart 182s were fat butts. Too much crap on board.

Some smart folks came along later and said, “Hey FAA... these older models all the way back to serial number X have the exact same airframe, gear, and everything else, and are identical to the new fat butt restarts. Can we have an STC to raise their MGTOW to 3100 also? Here’s Cessna’s drawings slowing they’re identical.”

Landing weight is still 2950 on all of them, which says something about how hard Cessna thinks folks are going to slam one on. Ha. Only takeoff weight was increased.

I’ve flown one of the restarts at close to 3100 for takeoff on a warm day here. Talk about an absolute pig in the climb... we’ll get up there someday... :)
 
CG is the primary issue but if I am going to trade up, I am going to future proof as mush as possible.

A Cherokee 6 or Lance will carry a ton. My mechanic has one of those and he can carry a Lycoming engine in the cargo compartment. But I digress.

My Traveler has a useful load of 873 lb. You should be able to put 400 in the front, 190 in the back, and 50 lb of luggage and stay within CG and weight limits with full fuel. But you will be right at aft CG. You will need the heaviest pax in the front. I think of the Traveler as 2+luggage. I could load a typical Tiger with 3+luggage as long as the 3 were reasonably normal size. I remember taking 3 of us and a bunch of camping gear to SLK no problem in a Tiger.
 
Mine’s also just about 1200 UL, but for you, Brian, W&B could - could - be an issue.

Comanches are exceptional.

For a growing family, a PA32 (Six, Saratoga, Lance) might be a sound option. 4-up, in a Bo, you’ll be crowded; even at 3, we often were.
 
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