What are the lateral and vertical boundaries?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by kicktireslightfires, Apr 4, 2021.

  1. kicktireslightfires

    kicktireslightfires Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Could someone clarify what is meant by "When flying through the lateral and vertical boundaries of Class C or B airspace..." ? Does this mean when flying underneath a C or B shelf?
     
  2. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Do you actually speak to your CFI, like, at all?
     
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  3. kicktireslightfires

    kicktireslightfires Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Talking to him costs money. These are the pilot training forums, right?
     
  4. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Looking up the definition of the words ‘lateral’ and ‘vertical’ isn’t pilot training, it’s called self help. Besides, asking your CFI that question mid flight doesn’t cost u one cent more.
     
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  5. kicktireslightfires

    kicktireslightfires Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I did look them up and didn't understand them, which is why I'm asking here. Isn't that the purpose of this subforum?
     
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  6. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    yip, go for it, ask away.
     
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  7. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Let me ask what you don't understand-
    If the airspace isn't class B or C, is is generally class E (year, I know there are occasionally class Delta near larger airports. That's why I said "generally"). You can duck under a shelf, as I did as a student pilot without an endorsement for that particular class Bravo. Ironically, it was the only time I've ever been cleared into Class Bravo (Philadelphia)- I said unable and maintained my altitude after checking that I was indeed going to stay under the shelf.
     
  8. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    In this context:
    Lateral- like a wall.
    Vertical- like a shelf
     
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  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Nothing tricky bout it. Means exactly what it says. It comes up in rules applying to above as well as below. Like the speed limit beneath B within the lateral confines. SVFR being allowed up to 10,000 within the lateral confines of Surface Area. I think there are some ADSB things that are governed by lateral boundaries even though you are above or below the top or bottom of the airspace in question
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Lateral boundaries = Rings
    Vertical boundaries = upper and lower numbers
     
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  11. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

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    No. "Through" is the keyword.
     
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  12. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

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    You guys don't talk in flight? Weird.
     
  13. champ driver

    champ driver Line Up and Wait

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    Inside the yellow or green airspace only, everything else is outside.

    airspace.jpg
     
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  14. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    problem with this, you can get wrong information.
     
  15. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Well you got the cheap part of being a pilot learned already.
     
  16. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    Could you not have conveyed the same message without coming across like a
    D-bag?

    It’s no wonder new folks are scared off.
     
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  17. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Lol that’s funny coming from you. Pot, kettle, black, something something.
     
  18. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

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    It does cost, but in the long run, your initial flight training will wind up being one of your smaller aviation expenses.

    Bottom line up front, you’ll get more out of it by asking your CFI.

    The advantage of asking your CFI is that instead of simply giving the answer, he can assess your overall understanding of airspace, guide you to finding the answer, and structure lessons to have you apply the knowledge by planning and flying through, or around, different classes of airspace.

    Forums are fine, but we don’t have the advantage of being face to face, and don’t know your training track record. Also be careful of going to outside sources during training, as it could lead to confusing or conflicting information. If so, you then need to resolve those differences before it derails your written test or checkride, or costs more in remedial training than it would have for 0.2 of ground.
     
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  19. RussR

    RussR Pattern Altitude

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    Although I don't agree with the general attitude here toward this question (I think it could have just been answered, it's not a hard question but maybe there was some confusion on what "lateral" and "vertical" means in this context), I do have to wonder about this statement:

    Does your CFI charge you if you send an email/text/IM/etc asking a question? Or if you call him/her after the flight? I tell all of my students that if they ever have a question, just call or text me. I don't keep track of how many minutes I spend helping them between lessons and then add that to their next bill. Are there CFIs who do this? To me, that's all part of being a CFI. Maybe it's different at a big school, I don't know. Now, if it's a big question with a complicated answer, I may say "let's talk about that next time", but that's pretty rare. But often I can just point them to a reference to look something up themselves, too.
     
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  20. 1000RR

    1000RR Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm a student pilot as well and would definitely recommend talking with your CFI just to continue to have a common understanding of where things are at, what areas need focus, and where you're going etc. All that said, the simple answer to your question is - since the word "through" was included, that would indicate you're inside the Charlie or Bravo airspace (or about to be... you're going "through" it). Lateral just means sideways (side to side, horizontal) and vertical just means up and down. So basically you are flying inside of the rings of the pictures @champ driver posted above. If you were "underneath" a shelf (ring), you wouldn't be "through" the C or B airspace, you would be outside the B or C airspace.

    Hope that helps. Safe flying!
     
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  21. Marshall Alexander

    Marshall Alexander Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yep, one of the reasons I don't ask a lot of questions on the forums. The smarta$$ answers usually come from the smarta$$es that don't know the answer.
     
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  22. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Or read the FAR/AIM?
     
  23. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    There are times when extending the ‘sides of the cylinder’ to altitudes above and below the vertical limits of the airspace in question is necessary. FAR 91.117 (b). 91.157 (a). 91.215 (b) (4). 91.225 (d) (3). Any of these could come up as a test question. I was thinking that @kicktireslightfires was maybe thinking about 'lateral boundaries' when he asked "Does this mean when flying underneath a C or B shelf?" in the OP
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2021
  24. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

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    @kicktireslightfires... You may have already done so, but I've often checked out YouTube videos for explaining things. Several times got a better understanding that just reading/hearing things.

    Good luck!
     
  25. TxJim

    TxJim Filing Flight Plan

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    Sorry for the bad attitude of some on this board.
    Lateral is a term that generally refers to the limit of the horizontal boundaries.They typically consist of several shelves each having different vertical and horizontal dimensions. to make up the whole. For example, Class C typically surrounds other large airports but with less capacity than a B airport. It is represented by a heavy or solid magenta border, with vertical limits, tops and bottoms of the shelfs depicted with magenta numbering, e.g. 41/SFC, within the boundary.
    C airspace is typically is from the surface up to 4,000ft AGL. It is structured similarly to Class B airspace in that it has a 5nm radius from the surface to 1,200ft AGL, and another "shelf" that extends to 10nm radius from 1,200ft AGL to 4,000ft AGL. So, for example, you would be "flying within" or "flying through" the "lateral boundaries" of Class C airspace if you at 1500ft AGL within 10nm i.e. within the solid magenta border. IF you were at 1000ft AGL and more than 5 miles from the Class C airport, you would not be in Class C airspace and you would be "underneath the shelf" that begins at 1200ft that extends out to 10NM.
     
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  26. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I answered the question as I did - just defining the terms with reference to class C airspace. I'm adding a photo here. But beyond that, @kicktireslightfires, I don't have any idea specifically what about the phrase is giving you trouble.
    upload_2021-4-5_12-3-44.png
     
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  27. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    Wow, tough crowd. All he asked was does it include under the shelf. I'm pretty sure he knows what "lateral" and "vertical" mean.
     
  28. Marshall Alexander

    Marshall Alexander Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think I could see how this might have confused him when the word boundaries was "thrown-in" there.
    I've been PPL for 44 years. I had to sort of study what he was after, upon reading his initial post. After reading some of the more "appropriate" answers, even I understand it better.
     
  29. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes, but one would also anticipate understanding what "and" means. But it can nevertheless sometimes be a problem because, depending on context, "and" might be inclusive or exclusive. I thought at first that it was an ADS-B Out requirement question, but the regulation does not use the wording "lateral and vertical boundaries." The ADS-B reg says, "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL" And it has indeed been widely misinterpreted to include under the shelf.
     
  30. 1000RR

    1000RR Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Agree... I was trying to keep the answer simple as his question didn't seem to go into the other requirements you referenced via the FAR. But 100% agree with you.
     
  31. TxJim

    TxJim Filing Flight Plan

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    Agree, and let's face it, there's a lot of jargon in aviation and it takes a while for new pilots to soak it up and truly understand it in a way that's more meaningful than just for passing the written test
     
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  32. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    The original sentence is overly complex.

    "Where are you right now?"
    "I am within the lateral and vertical boundaries of my house."
     
  33. guzziguy

    guzziguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Simple question which might explain the OP's original question: How old are you, @kicktireslightfires ?

    The statement in the regs that you are quoting is written in plain, yet higher level, english. If you are younger and/or not accustomed to reading the legalese that regulations (of any stripe) are written in, then I would expect a question such as yours.

    "within the lateral or vertical limits" simply means "inside."
    That's all
     
  34. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    Oh for cripes sake the guy asked a simple question and I'm pretty sure the reason he asked it is because there are requirements for flying OVER Class C - you gotta have a transponder and ADS-B out and that's clearly outside of the vertical limits. So it ain't got nothin' to do with "higher level english" Gimee a break.
     
  35. guzziguy

    guzziguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    an example of lower level english?

    The OP made no question regarding transponders and requirements thereof.
    he asked about the definition of "lateral and vertical limits". There is no reason on God's green earth (and the sky above its "horizontal limits") for regulations to be written in this manner but for lawyers' imposition. This is the purpose of the AIM -> to translate what is written in the FARs into everyday / Layman's english.
    He asked a very simple question: "What does vertical/lateral limits mean?"
    Definition: inside.

    No Charge, OP

     
  36. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    No he didn't, he just asked if it meant under the shelf. The answer he was looking for was just one word - no

    I kind of doubt that he's going to ask any more questions here and that's a darn shame for the "Pilot Training" section of the "Pilots of America" forum.
     
  37. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    the goal for me wasn't to drive him off, it's to provoke him to start attempting to answer some of his own questions on his own OR use his CFI for what he's there for. if it seemed harsh, sorry, but there were a few questions in a row that seemed like zero effort was being put in.
     
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  38. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    You're a big meanie and a doody-head. :sad:
     
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  39. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    basically anything that comes out of my mouth.

    also, here ya go.........

    also, Tim is actually correct. for once, sheesh.
     
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  40. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Line Up and Wait

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    Lateral is width...vertical is height...

    Eman, let's do lunch at MTV some weekend..:)

    I swear we have more trolls than Grim's Fairy Tales...