Weird placement of car parts. Why?

[bbchien]

The recent Escape is famous for that.

The answer is: Because Ford could save $0.52 per unit during production by doing it that way.

THIS!

You should see the look on the salesman's face when i open the hood on the showroom floor, and then slide under the front bumper (to find the coolant drain plug).

Not reachable? "Not intertested in the car. Have a nice day".

 

[DJTorrente]

The recent Escape is famous for that.

The answer is: Because Ford could save $0.52 per unit during production by doing it that way.

It's all a matter of what the design objectives are/were. Purchaser satisfaction isn't top of that list.

In addition to cost reduction, there is fuel efficiency. That's why cars are now programmed to kill the engine at a stop light -- your cost to replace the starter motor after the warranty expires doesn't even jiggle the Mfr's IDGAF needle. If I had to guess, they made other parts of the car lighter (again, for CAFE reasons), so they had to bury the relatively heavy lead-acid battery in order to lower the CG and reduce rollover propensity.

 

[bbchien]

Oh, man. I forgot about that. I'll have to remember if it's got "stop-autokill" to make sure I can get to the starter without "lifting" the engine.

All this makes for an interesting show room experience. Oh, that's going away too, i suppose, with Amazon selling Hyundai on line.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Which engine? I have the 2017 Fusion with the 2.0L engine and it takes about 1 minute and is a single bolt.

But yes on 'throwaway cars' i.e cheap-end consumer grade cars expected to run about 150k miles and then be thrown away, serviceability isn't there anymore because they're really not expected to run forever. Once the engine or transmission goes, that costs more to replace than the car so off to a scrap yard it goes.

1.5 liter. That model has an extra long battery, and replacing it is a known issue.

Honestly though, if the last guy to drive it hadn't left the lights on all weekend and fried the battery, it probably would have lasted long enough to see the Ecoboost grenade itself.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Oh don't even get me started on auto engine kill. Any mechanic or engineer will tell you that the worst thing you can do to your engine is start it. 90% of engine wear is on startup. Hot starts are better than cold starts, but once the journal bearings lose their oil film floatation, it's back to metal to metal contact.

 

[Tools]

My dad had a Winnebago… meh…

Said he learned during a rally, however, that all engineering changes went to MAINTENANCE for final approval. That changed my mind about Winnebago!

 

[midwestpa24]

Oh don't even get me started on auto engine kill. Any mechanic or engineer will tell you that the worst thing you can do to your engine is start it. 90% of engine wear is on startup. Hot starts are better than cold starts, but once the journal bearings lose their oil film floatation, it's back to metal to metal contact.

Yep! That is one of the best thing to come out of the post pandemic supply chain issues, many manufacturers dropped the auto stop due to the chip shortage.

My truck is pre-pandemic, so I installed one of these. https://www.autostopeliminator.com/

 

[Daleandee]

Many new motorcycles are terrible in that regard as well. Certainly many newer BMW’s are. Batteries and headlight bulbs requiring pretty significant disassembly. It hasn’t always been this way - on my 1998 and 1999 K1200RS’s the batteries are easily accessible under the flip-up seat, as it should be.

Had an early 90's 800 Suzuki. Battery went in from underneath and was held in place by a hinged door that had to be bolted shut while holding the battery in place.

 

[bnt83]

2016 I believe

Seems early to need a battery, is something draining it?

 

[Bell206]

I gave up on vehicle mx when I had to remove the front tires and inner wheel well panels to change spark plugs. It was much easier to fit in a couple more aircraft jobs and pay the dealer to work on my truck.

 

[PaulMillner]

a car designer should be made to work on cars for a year before being allowed to actually design them.

That might be good. But a designer’s job is to maximize shareholder return, as envisioned by management. If s/he can envision several ways to do that, and choose the maintenance friendly one, great! But if maintainability conflicts with the objective function, the designer’s job is to follow management objectives.

That’s where creativity comes in… but there are of course limits…

Paul

 

[aterry1067]

Seems early to need a battery, is something draining it?

Don’t know where the OP lives, but 7 years would be a very long life for a battery in the desert southwest (Phoenix, for example). Typical lifespan for a battery there is 3-4 years.

 

[FORANE]

I gave up on vehicle mx when I had to remove the front tires and inner wheel well panels to change spark plugs. It was much easier to fit in a couple more aircraft jobs and pay the dealer to work on my truck.

Sounds like a Toyota or Lexus.

 

[flyingron]

I had a 2005 Cadillac DTS. Battery was under the back seat.

That's where it was in the sixties era bugs.

 

[Zeldman]

but once the journal bearings lose their oil film floatation, it's back to metal to metal contact.

How long does it take for the oil to drain and the bearings become dry.??

I once dug up a Chevy 327 that had been sitting outside on the ground for at least 15 years with the heads removed. The owner of the property said it was there when he bought it. I mean I used a shovel to get it free from the ground. I wanted it because it was a rare steel crank engine.

When I got it apart, it still had oil on the bearings.

 

[schmookeeg]

It sounds like you did things the hard way. You could have accessed the battery in a single step by dropping the engine/transaxle instead.

 

[Sundancer]

The military fighter designs of years past stuffed junk in any convenient (for the designer) location - "Removed to FOM" (facilitate other maintenance) was a routine entry in the forms. Somewhere around the F-15 coming into service they started giving some attention to sortie rates - and not having to take the airplane apart to change a single black box. More slide-in-out racks, better retainments, less safety wire, more mobile test equipment, etc.

Even transports - the C5 had the IMU in the radome where it failed at a high rate - they moved it to the TO libray on the flight deck and that made it happy.

 

[bnt83]

Can't complain. I do all the maintenance so far. Replaced al the spark plugs, a starter (it was still going just wanted to see what all the fuss was about), an alternator, one complete brake job, fixed a broken door in the HVAC box and almost all of it was done with no assistance and one-handed.

 

[Pinecone]

I’ll never complain about the #8 spark plug on my 1998 F-150 again.

My boss had an F150 with the extended length plugs. One of the back ones did not come out. To get to it, they had to remove the cab.

 

[Country Flier]

Many many years ago, I bought a new Toyota Tercel. In the owner's manual, it recommended you take the Tercel to the Toyota dealer to change the oil if the car had the accessory AC...reason being, the AC condenser sat approx 3/4" behind (actually it was in front of) the oil filter. To get the oil filter off, you had to remove the AC condenser, then upon reinstall, recharge the AC!!!

I have always changed my oil myself. The first time I changed the Tercel, I marked with a magic marker on the condenser where the oil filter hit it when backing out the oil filter. Then, once a removed the condenser, I pounded in a huge dent in the condenser with a ball peen hammer where the oil filter hit...and VOILA! Now I had room to remove the oil filter without removing the condenser. When I did the mod, I was so angry at the stupid design I didn't care if I ruined the AC or not, but miraculously, the AC still worked just fine for the next 200k miles!

 

[Ventucky Red]

Autos are all designed by 25yo computer experts with black-frame glasses, perfectly clean hands, manicured nails, sipping Starbucks while they work on their computer-generated 3-D models in huge offices, at least that’s how I envision it.

I think it's more like a room full of service managers looking to make life as difficult as possible for the average Joe with a wrench and Youtube.

 

[DJTorrente]

I think it's more like a room full of service managers looking to make life as difficult as possible for the average Joe with a wrench and Youtube.

If Joe with a wrench and YouTube doesn't spend $95 for an oil change, the dealership loses, big time. They make far more money selling maintenance than they can on new car sales. Design for Maintainability is a decided negative to dealerships. In addition to the advantage of amortizing tooling and equipment, they can take advantage of volume and related know-how to make the job(s) that much quicker and easier, yet they still charge by the hour according to book hours.

 

[tspear]

Well a number of dealerships now state the profit and revenue are almost all from service.
So, the auto-companies have gradually been increasing service intervals on many aspects of the car need some way to keep the dealership happy.

Seems like a fun theory.... but I think a fairly trite quote better sums it up.

Never attribute to malice what is better explained by stupidity.

Tim

 

[X3 Skier]

When I was the USAF Chief Engineer for the Advanced Tactical Fighter Program (YF-22 and YF-23), we took the Design Teams on a "Blue Two" (Two Stripe UAF Mechanic) trip to the European USAF Bases. We had them change Engines, Avionics etc on F-4's, F-16's and F-15's, a few times in Chem Bio Gear. Gave them a real perspective on why we kept hammering on Maintenance ease. One clear result was all of the LRU's on the F-22 Engine were on the bottom of the Engine and accessible thru doors. the tools reuired could be in your average lunch box. An Engine change took a couple of hours or so vs all Effing day on an F-4. Took some minor hits on Radar Cross Section but a fighter on the ground isn't very useful no matter how invisible it might be in the air. The RCS Treatments were and still are a PITA.

It's all in priorities and since the Shop at any Dealership is the real profit center and production cost is a real driving factor, they ain't going to make it easy for the shade tree mechanic.

 

[mondtster]

I've worked for three different vehicle manufacturers in product development/design engineering. Never once have I heard a discussion where there was intentional plotting to make servicing the engine or vehicle difficult, but I have also never been part of a discussion where anyone was particularly concerned with servicing things after it was constructed either. I haven't ever gotten the feeling that anyone at the OEMs really cares much about dealerships or how they make their money, they're just salesmen hawking the company products.

There are reasons things get placed where they did. Servicing difficulties are often the result of different design teams working on different aspects of the vehicle without discussing what they are doing with others. Despite some of the difficulties, I have yet to find something that absolutely cannot be serviced by a decent mechanic in their home shop although some projects require being resourceful.

 

[Bill]

Realistically, how often is a battery changed on a car over its lifetime?

We live in a downtown area, most of our trips are under 5 miles. Even using a battery tender, we rarely get more than 2 years from a top quality battery.

Which engine? I have the 2017 Fusion with the 2.0L engine and it takes about 1 minute and is a single bolt.

Our 2016 Fusion 2.0 Ecoboost is on it's third battery, and yes, it's not hard to replace.

Many new motorcycles are terrible in that regard as well. Certainly many newer BMW’s are.

My 2016 GS battery isn't that hard to get to, I've even changed it out on a trip in the parking lot of a Batteries Plus. Bike was starting fine until it didn't, out in the country 80mi from any decent sized town. Jump pack for the win, if you don't carry a jump pack (and flat repair kit) on your bike, get them.

 

[midwestpa24]

On the same topic, is the way manufacturers are changing some of the basic operational concepts of vehicles. Shifters that used to be either column or console mounted are now knobs or buttons. They are finding new innovative ways of hiding common controls, which makes it difficult if you rent or have reason to drive different cars frequently. I believe it was a Durango or Grand Cherokee we had recently, the only way to turn on (or off!) the heated seats, was within the menus of the center entertainment screen, no hard button. Not real convenient as you are going down the highway. My older parents just purchased a new SUV with the transmission buttons, and had to have the salesperson show them how to put the car in gear.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I have always contended that a car designer should be made to work on cars for a year before being allowed to actually design them. Maybe it would solve those sorts of things.

Airplanes, too. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff. The P210 has an electroluminescent switch panel that runs on 100vdc, generated by a small inverter that's hidden above the glovebox and between it and the right-side boot cowl skin. Getting it out involves much frustration and noise, many scratches and blood, and a lot of tools. Even with the glovebox out it's almost impossible. I think Cessna mounted that inverter on the fuselage assembly jig and built the airplane around it.

 

[MarkH]

The old Chrysler Sebrings had the battery in the driver side front tire well.

It was truly insane, I still haven't seen a battery location that I thought was worse. (Un)Fortunately, those engines were so bad that the batteries generally didn't have to be replaced more than once.

 

[weilke]

It sounds like you did things the hard way. You could have accessed the battery in a single step by dropping the engine/transaxle instead.

Some Porsches require you to drop the engine to get to the upper spark plugs.


I made the mistake to tell the dealer 'oh, just change the spark plugs too' on my little Nissan truck a few years ago. Turns out its a 3.5hr job that requires them to take off the intake manifold. Now I'll just wait until I get misfire codes.

 

[Bill]

Now I'll just wait until I get misfire codes.

That’s what I did with the 5.4 that was in the F-150 I owned. Get a misfire code, replace the plug and COP on that cylinder, drive on.

 

[jesse]

That’s what I did with the 5.4 that was in the F-150 I owned. Get a misfire code, replace the plug and COP on that cylinder, drive on.

My experience was more like "spark plug ejects itself from engine, destroys COP, destroys threads. Helicoil, new plug, new COP, drive on". It wasn't even safe to stand around with the hood open and engine running given its tendency to suddenly launch spark plugs at high velocities.

 

[Sac Arrow]

How long does it take for the oil to drain and the bearings become dry.??

I once dug up a Chevy 327 that had been sitting outside on the ground for at least 15 years with the heads removed. The owner of the property said it was there when he bought it. I mean I used a shovel to get it free from the ground. I wanted it because it was a rare steel crank engine.

When I got it apart, it still had oil on the bearings.

Of course the oil will be there. But once an engine stops the cranks and rods immediately drop to the bronze bearings. And the same is true with the cylinder walls. The rings grate and wear on the cylinders until the oil barrier builds up.

 

[Bill]

My experience was more like "spark plug ejects itself from engine, destroys COP, destroys threads. Helicoil, new plug, new COP, drive on".

I somehow had a good one, 150kmi and 17 years, no ejections.

 

[Albany Tom]

Just an hour ago the neighbor asked me to help her replace the battery on her Ford SUV (Escape I think). So to reach the battery you remove:
...
On my 4runner I need only 10mm socket and 3-5 minutes.

All of the above, plus not to start another debate, but maybe because the escape is more or less a car/minivan, and the 4runner is, I believe, still built on a light truck chassis. Trucks are way harder to work on than they used to be, but things that might become fleet vehicles tend to have slightly better maintenance access, maybe because fleet mechanics might have a little voice in what their companies buy.

 

[tspear]

Of course the oil will be there. But once an engine stops the cranks and rods immediately drop to the bronze bearings. And the same is true with the cylinder walls. The rings grate and wear on the cylinders until the oil barrier builds up.

I know in aviation we make a big deal about the wear and tear on the engine when staring/stopping. However, I took an Uber Black a few weeks ago. It was in a few years old MB sedan, I did not pay attention to the model. But I did talk to the driver, he owned the car, did all the service work himself, and had over 200K miles on the car, and still had the start/stop active. I remember thinking that is more miles than I usually kept the car (maintenance items increase, and I used to not be able to afford the downtime).

So, is there any recent data on the start/stop causing engine wear in automotive vehicles?

Tim

 

[Ashara Keliyn]

Airplanes, too. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff. The P210 has an electroluminescent switch panel that runs on 100vdc, generated by a small inverter that's hidden above the glovebox and between it and the right-side boot cowl skin. Getting it out involves much frustration and noise, many scratches and blood, and a lot of tools. Even with the glovebox out it's almost impossible. I think Cessna mounted that inverter on the fuselage assembly jig and built the airplane around it.

Is that why everyone is converting their EL switch and CB panels to integral LEDs?

 

[Dan Thomas]

Of course the oil will be there. But once an engine stops the cranks and rods immediately drop to the bronze bearings. And the same is true with the cylinder walls. The rings grate and wear on the cylinders until the oil barrier builds up.

The wrist pin bearings are bronze, but the rod bearings are a lead/tin alloy over copper on a steel shell. If there is oil there, it keeps the metal apart. It's not the oil pressure that does it; the pressure just makes sure the oil is getting to where it needs to be. It's the oil that separates the stuff.

The piston and rings need very little oil. There is very low area loading on the piston, and only a bit more on the rings. I spent 12 years bossing an air brake remanufacturing shop, and in my time there we rebuilt about 17,000 compressors. Once in a while one would come in that had been run out of oil for one reason or another. It was always the rod bearings that went first.

A friend ran an aircraft maintenance shop. He had an apprentice that did a 50-hour inspection. Drained the oil and changed the oil filter. Forgot to put the oil in. Then the airplane was taxied across the airport to an avionics shop for some work. Maybe a mile or so, at little more than idle power. Then the apprentice realized what he had done. They tore the engine apart; there was no damage. The little bit of oil in the galleries was enough to keep it alive for those few minutes. In cruise, engine death would be really quick.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I somehow had a good one, 150kmi and 17 years, no ejections.

Same. 98 F-150 w/ 5.4L never had any issues yeeting plugs into low-earth orbit. My '08 F-150 w/ 5.4L was also flawless with the 2-pc spark plug issue of getting stuck in the head and breaking. I put 160K on both of those trucks and they ran (and looked) like new when I sold them.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Is that why everyone is converting their EL switch and CB panels to integral LEDs?

Cheaper. Much cheaper. And safer. Very low voltage.

Replacing that electroluminescent panel was worth many thousands of dollars if you cracked it. The inverter was some awesome price, too.