Was I "that guy"?

[EdFred]

The more I read the bovine excrement oozing from this guy's mouth and plastering itself all over his plaid shirt and striped pants hiked up to his nipples, it's no wonder he's no longer a DPE, and I'm certainly glad he's not in the air any longer.

For the record I never descend into any leg of the pattern. I enter whichever leg is appropriate and safe at TPA. I don't really feel like playing Legos with other planes.

 

[MAKG1]

It's hard to believe you've even read my posts or looked at the diagrams. None of that holds up to scrutiny. Especially the departing traffic fear. That's Landsberg's phobia (and most inexperienced/controlled airport denizens). The fear some departing airplane's gonna climb right up there and knock you out of the sky like a heat-seeking missle. Baloney.

I'm more concerned about arriving traffic.

On a 4 deg glideslope (common for airports without jet traffic), IFR traffic will be at 1000 AGL less than 3 miles from the threshold. And will be arriving while your attention is going the other way, toward the airport. Arriving straight-in VFR traffic could be at 1000 AGL much closer. Yes, they aren't supposed to do that, but a LOT of people do.

It's a lot better to cross over the numbers, where arriving aircraft are either at or near 0 AGL, or are at the IFR approach minimum (usually, well below 1000 feet). But that's an upwind entry, not circling the airport to determine direction and conditions.

 

[dtuuri]

Who said anything about TPA?

Jesse.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

The more I read the bovine excrement oozing from <snip>

I see you're as obnoxious as ever. Go sit on an egg.

I enter whichever leg is appropriate and safe at TPA.

Then you're arguing for the sake of it because that's exactly what I'm saying. Except, apparently, you never check first when you don't know for sure.

dtuuri

 

[MAKG1]

Dturri, I have an assignment from a CAP instructor as part of a checkout. I know what I'm going to do -- cross midfield at 1500 with a teardrop at least 1 minute out at cruise speed (that's 2 miles in a 182), descending and slowing to 90 during the left turn into the 45, and merging into the downwind at TPA and at 90 KIAS. I'm curious what you would advise.

I have to approach o88 from the south. The only straightforward pattern entry is 15, but the wind seldom favors it. The usual runway is 25. Both 8 and 25 have patterns on the north side (25 is right traffic). There is a noise-sensitive neighborhood very close in on the southwest corner of the airport, and the A/FD prohibits overflights. That's in the way of both the "crosswind entry" and any kind of circling the airport, or pretty much anything on the non-pattern side of the airport for any of the runways.

A straight-in to 33 is another possibility, though I really do believe a sufficiently wide teardrop into the right 45 for 25 is safer than that. The right 45 for 33 crosses the patterns for 8 and 25, so that's not a good idea.

In a suburban environment, this situation is unfortunately common.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/o88

Check out the aerial photo, as it clearly shows the problematic neighborhood, and just how close in it is.

 

[jesse]

Ihave to approach o88 from the south. The only straightforward pattern entry is 15, but the wind seldom favors it. The usual runway is 25

Man you're making it complicated. If coming from the south I would cross midfield at TPA and then join a right downwind for 25. You're at TPA so it's easy to tell where to look for other aircraft. Keep your eyes open and see and avoid.

 

[MAKG1]

Man you're making it complicated. If coming from the south I would cross midfield at TPA and then join a right downwind for 25. You're at TPA so it's easy to tell where to look for other aircraft. Keep your eyes open and see and avoid.

That may or may not work with a CAP instructor in the right seat. They do things like insist on using the factory checklists, which everyone involved admits suck terribly.

I don't see anything in CAPR 60-1 about pattern entries, but if it's not in the AIM, it's a good bet CAP will want it avoided.

It's all about CYA liability.

 

[jesse]

That may or may not work with a CAP instructor in the right seat. They do things like insist on using the factory checklists, which everyone involved admits suck terribly.

I don't see anything in CAPR 60-1 about pattern entries, but if it's not in the AIM, it's a good bet CAP will want it avoided.

It's all about CYA liability.

There is absolutely nothing even slightly illegal about joining on a midfield crosswind. The only opposition I've ever seen to that are people that "prefer" to do it on the departure end of the runway versus midfield. I've never seen anyone ever suggest it wasn't a legal entry. It is a hell of a lot more standard than some of the things I've seen suggested in this thread.

When it comes to being picky a CAP ride is nothing like a CFI ride with our FSDO. I taught the inspector how to join the pattern on a midfield crosswind on my CFI ride and was the inspector's first and only candidate to pass on the first try.

Dtuuri's interpretation of this issue and the regulations, I assure you, is incompatible with 99.9% of the active pilots out there. Which is why I stated in the beginning I wasn't going to argue it with him, since I can't change his ability to interpret written word. That said, I'm saying something so that anyone reading this can realize he's absolutely not an expert on this subject and has a view that is contrary to the rest of the flying population.

For those that do interpret regulations like the rest of us (and the FAA), it's quite easy to look at part 91 and determine that the only regulatory requirement is the direction of the turn. If by chance you do run into some CAP guy who thinks like Dtuuri I would try to educate him and if he wouldn't listen would take it up the chain so they could correct the matter.

I'm not about to say this is a perfect science, and there are likely many exceptions, but from my time evaluating pilots the *ONLY* people I've ever seen do the teardrop entry are folks that are new and don't fly much.

 

[dtuuri]

Dturri, I have an assignment from a CAP instructor as part of a checkout. ... I'm curious what you would advise.

In a suburban environment, this situation is unfortunately common.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/o88

Check out the aerial photo, as it clearly shows the problematic neighborhood, and just how close in it is.

Those exceptions certainly exist, and I hate them because your hands are tied. For reasons stated, I wouldn't fly right across the airport. Any circling to assess the situation should be done to the left, since anyone lost and circling wouldn't know about the RH pattern in use. That would mean I'd follow the same diagram I used above if it's for RWY 25, without the circle because you already know the active:

​

I wouldn't worry much about the noise sensitive areas at that altitude unless there was a Part 93 special traffic pattern there, but I'd throttle back. The A/FD says that area is: "Noise sensitive area N of Rwy 33. Do not overfly
ranch and corrals off Rwy 33." I suspect they mean "W of 33". Either way, making a leftward turn 500' above the pattern just to the east of the boundary, heading north and west well beyond the pattern and then descending and turning back into the area you just cleared with your left turn would be my way to handle it. But the reality is you have a boss who might not agree, so it's best to talk it through first to avoid a confrontation. If the boss has other ideas, you have to decide if it's worth cow-towing or not, i.e., can it be done safely despite the difference somehow. Cross higher? Go out further? Look around more intently? Or walk.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

There is absolutely nothing even slightly illegal about joining on a midfield crosswind. The only opposition I've ever seen to that are people that "prefer" to do it on the departure end of the runway versus midfield. I've never seen anyone ever suggest it wasn't a legal entry. It is a hell of a lot more standard than some of the things I've seen suggested in this thread.

When it comes to being picky a CAP ride is nothing like a CFI ride with our FSDO. I taught the inspector how to join the pattern on a midfield crosswind on my CFI ride and was the inspector's first and only candidate to pass on the first try.

Dtuuri's interpretation of this issue and the regulations, I assure you, is incompatible with 99.9% of the active pilots out there. Which is why I stated in the beginning I wasn't going to argue it with him, since I can't change his ability to interpret written word. That said, I'm saying something so that anyone reading this can realize he's absolutely not an expert on this subject and has a view that is contrary to the rest of the flying population.

For those that do interpret regulations like the rest of us (and the FAA), it's quite easy to look at part 91 and determine that the only regulatory requirement is the direction of the turn. If by chance you do run into some CAP guy who thinks like Dtuuri I would try to educate him and if he wouldn't listen would take it up the chain so they could correct the matter.

I'm not about to say this is a perfect science, and there are likely many exceptions, but from my time evaluating pilots the *ONLY* people I've ever seen do the teardrop entry are folks that are new and don't fly much.

You are so full of yourself, I'm doing something I never do: Quote all of your ignorance!

You lost your butt in this debate, haven't even addressed a stinking single point. Like the rest, you resort to name-calling and try to marginalize me with personal attack. Cutting across the center of an airport is not where a "crosswind leg" is defined. End of debate. You lose. Bye.

dtuuri

 

[Everskyward]

There is absolutely nothing even slightly illegal about joining on a midfield crosswind. The only opposition I've ever seen to that are people that "prefer" to do it on the departure end of the runway versus midfield. I've never seen anyone ever suggest it wasn't a legal entry. It is a hell of a lot more standard than some of the things I've seen suggested in this thread.

When it comes to being picky a CAP ride is nothing like a CFI ride with our FSDO. I taught the inspector how to join the pattern on a midfield crosswind on my CFI ride and was the inspector's first and only candidate to pass on the first try.

Dtuuri's interpretation of this issue and the regulations, I assure you, is incompatible with 99.9% of the active pilots out there. Which is why I stated in the beginning I wasn't going to argue it with him, since I can't change his ability to interpret written word. That said, I'm saying something so that anyone reading this can realize he's absolutely not an expert on this subject and has a view that is contrary to the rest of the flying population.

For those that do interpret regulations like the rest of us (and the FAA), it's quite easy to look at part 91 and determine that the only regulatory requirement is the direction of the turn. If by chance you do run into some CAP guy who thinks like Dtuuri I would try to educate him and if he wouldn't listen would take it up the chain so they could correct the matter.

I'm not about to say this is a perfect science, and there are likely many exceptions, but from my time evaluating pilots the *ONLY* people I've ever seen do the teardrop entry are folks that are new and don't fly much.

Agree with Jesse. Most, if not all, of the techniques described in this thread are legal, even the midfield cross, teardrop to the 45. Just because someone prefers one over the other doesn't mean they should impose their ideas on others by scaring them into thinking the other entries are somehow against the regs.

 

[eetrojan]

*** Any circling to assess the situation should be done to the left, since anyone lost and circling wouldn't know about the RH pattern in use.

Really? Even when you expect to land in a RH pattern, you would still circle to the left?

Does that mean you never circle to the right?

 

[ChrisK]

That may or may not work with a CAP instructor in the right seat. They do things like insist on using the factory checklists, which everyone involved admits suck terribly.

I don't see anything in CAPR 60-1 about pattern entries, but if it's not in the AIM, it's a good bet CAP will want it avoided.

It's all about CYA liability.

Like everything else it depends on the instructor. Most CAP instructors I have flown with don't care about a crosswind entry.

 

[retailguy]

You are so full of yourself, I'm doing something I never do: Quote all of your ignorance!

You lost your butt in this debate, haven't even addressed a stinking single point. Like the rest, you resort to name-calling and try to marginalize me with personal attack. Cutting across the center of an airport is not where a "crosswind leg" is defined. End of debate. You lose. Bye.

dtuuri

Were you looking in a mirror when you uttered this? Dear Lord I've never read such stuff in my life.

"You lose. Bye". What are you, 12 years old?

I can't picture my CFII ever teaching me to do this in Houston. I'd be so far out of what the mainstream pilot does, NO ONE would know what hell I'm doing. I'd be a danger to everyone around me.

 

[ChrisK]

So.... Where does the crosswind turn begin on a go around??

 

[Clark1961]

So.... Where does the crosswind turn begin on a go around??

It looked like it started about midfiield for a blackhawk yesterday - he/she was at pattern altitude by the time they finished a 180 to downwind...

 

[dtuuri]

Really? Even when you expect to land in a RH pattern, you would still circle to the left?

Let's clear up where/when we're talking about first: Approaching an airport above the traffic pattern and circling. Don't want to leave an opening for the riffraff.

Every airport with a RH pattern also has a LH pattern. Part 91.126 requires LH turns unless the airport displays "visual" signals or markings. Until you or anybody else can see the visuals, you need to make left turns. But after you see them, there's no point in reversing direction and continuing to circle--you know what you need to know, i.e., there's RH traffic for the runway. At that point you leave the area to a point well beyond the pattern (some might say "vicinity", whatever), descend and reapproach making RH turns. It doesn't make any sense having some planes circling to the right and others to the left while overhead.

Does that mean you never circle to the right?

When above the pattern, yes.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

So.... Where does the crosswind turn begin on a go around??

Same as every other crosswind leg--"off the runway", i.e., "beyond it", but not less than within 300' of TPA.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

Were you looking in a mirror when you uttered this? Dear Lord I've never read such stuff in my life.

"You lose. Bye". What are you, 12 years old?

I can't picture my CFII ever teaching me to do this in Houston. I'd be so far out of what the mainstream pilot does, NO ONE would know what hell I'm doing. I'd be a danger to everyone around me.

If you can't raise a specific objection for debate, you can take your insults over to Ed who's sitting on an egg--and sit on him!

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

Just because someone prefers one over the other doesn't mean they should impose their ideas on others by scaring them into thinking the other entries are somehow against the regs.

The only thing "scary" is the thought of some nimrod blasting across the airport at pattern altitude trying to take out your family for some visceral thrill or to save five bucks in rental. You have no authority to tell someone it's legal.

dtuuri

 

[EdFred]

No, what's scary is you were once given authority to give check rides.

No one is "blasting" across the airport.

 

[dtuuri]

It looked like it started about midfiield for a blackhawk yesterday - he/she was at pattern altitude by the time they finished a 180 to downwind...

Looks like they were in violation of:

§91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

(a) ...
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.
​

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

No, what's scary is you were once given authority to give check rides.

No one is "blasting" across the airport.

Jesse is. You are disagreeing with him?

dtuuri

 

[Everskyward]

You have no authority to tell someone it's legal.

It's legal. You have no authority to tell anyone it is illegal. You also have no authority to tell anyone the teardrop back to the 45 is illegal. Just because you want it to be illegal does not make it so.

 

[EdFred]

No he is not, and neither am I. No one is blasting across the airport. They/we are flying at appropriate pattern speed, and on legal pattern legs, with the correct direction of turns being made. No 45's, no ampersands, no flying out to Timbuktu, and then have to re-assess the situation because you turned your back to the airport.

 

[Clark1961]

Looks like they were in violation of:

§91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

(a) ...
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.
​

No, they weren't in violation.

However you are making an assumption with no basis in fact.

 

[dtuuri]

No, they weren't in violation.

However you are making an assumption with no basis in fact.

No, I said "Looks like" because you offered it in this discussion about fixed-wing traffic at uncontrolled airports. You provided the anectote as though it were pertinent, apparently it's not.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

No he is not, and neither am I. No one is blasting across the airport. They/we are flying at appropriate pattern speed, and on legal pattern legs, with the correct direction of turns being made. No 45's, no ampersands, no flying out to Timbuktu, and then have to re-assess the situation because you turned your back to the airport.

Then the drawing was accurate?

​

dtuuri

 

[EdFred]

No, as I said before, the drawing is inaccurate.

 

[dtuuri]

No, as I said before, the drawing is inaccurate.

You better huddle up with your team then. You guys aren't on the same page:

...I teach to just fly a midfield crosswind then turn downwind.

I said I could enter on crosswind at midfield not that I do.

They/we are flying at appropriate pattern speed, and on legal pattern legs, with the correct direction of turns being made.

dtuuri

 

[eetrojan]

No, as I said before, the drawing is inaccurate.

Focusing on an opposite-side arrival to a nontowered airport when you already know the runway in use and required traffic direction, to avoid complications with differing opinions on how you should fly over the airport to determine landing direction and wind, is this an accurate summary?

Bigger Version of Drawing

 

[EdFred]

There's no need to huddle. You are missing a key element that is wrong with your drawing, and based on your posts since 2011, you are too dumb to try and explain it to.

Edit: the third frame of that drawing is not what dturri has been saying. He has been saying to make at least a descending 270 degree turn somewhere before entering opposite side. I also do not cross at midfield. I cross on the upwind end of the runway. Maybe over the numbers, or slightly off the end, or maybe a little towards the center. But I do not cross at midfield. Reason being, I put my gear down at midfield downwind. If I cross at midfield, I've broken a link the the chain, because I can't ever be at a midfield downwind.

 

[dtuuri]

Focusing on an opposite-side arrival to a nontowered airport when you already know the runway in use and required traffic direction, to avoid complications with differing opinions on how you should fly over the airport to determine landing direction and wind, is this an accurate summary?

Bigger Version of Drawing

A few clarifications:

In the first frame I did use the term "vicinity", however the FAA's advisory circular says "well beyond the pattern". As I also noted, the issue is that most pilots don't have the patience to go out far enough whatever the terminology.

In the middle frame your stated assumption is that the runway is "known", which may not be the same for all observers. Somebody else might have an equal feeling, but for the opposite runway resulting in a head-on cross-over.

In the third frame (and others too, but important to a lesser extent) the departure leg is drawn far, far too short for most uncontrolled airports. Crossing just beyond the end of the runway puts you well above any departing traffic. If there's a posible conflict you can pass behind, extend the upwind or break away and circumnavigate from farther away.
​

dtuuri

 

[eetrojan]

Edit: the third frame of that drawing is not what dturri has been saying. He has been saying to make at least a descending 270 degree turn somewhere before entering opposite side. I also do not cross at midfield. I cross on the upwind end of the runway. Maybe over the numbers, or slightly off the end, or maybe a little towards the center. But I do not cross at midfield. Reason being, I put my gear down at midfield downwind. If I cross at midfield, I've broken a link the the chain, because I can't ever be at a midfield downwind.

Thanks EdFred.

Would you still do that in a fixed gear aircraft? It seems reasonable since everybody crossing to the upwind end of the field, relative to their direction, would seem to resolve dtuuri's concern (just posted above) re two opposing aircraft crossing directly over the midfield and having a head-on crossing at the same altitude.

 

[eetrojan]

Edit: the third frame of that drawing is not what dturri has been saying. He has been saying to make at least a descending 270 degree turn somewhere before entering opposite side. I also do not cross at midfield. I cross on the upwind end of the runway. Maybe over the numbers, or slightly off the end, or maybe a little towards the center. But I do not cross at midfield. Reason being, I put my gear down at midfield downwind. If I cross at midfield, I've broken a link the the chain, because I can't ever be at a midfield downwind.

I could be wrong, but I think dtuuri has been talking about flying above the airport in a left hand circle only because I was asking him to assume that I did not know the wind or the landing pattern. That discussion got confusing (at least to me). I notice that he didn't correct Figure X other than to say that the length of the upwind leg of the closed pattern appears to too short and not to scale.

That's why I tried to shift the scenario to a more common one where you know something about the wind, runway in use, and pattern direction in advance, by virtue of having looked at a chart, received automated weather, called UNICOM, listened to the CTAF, etc.

 

[dtuuri]

There's no need to huddle. You are missing a key element that is wrong with your drawing, and based on your posts since 2011, you are too dumb to try and explain it to.

Insults again, oh my what a surprise.

Edit: the third frame of that drawing is not what dturri has been saying. He has been saying to make at least a descending 270 degree turn somewhere before entering opposite side.

He said the runway is "known" (to the extent anybody knows what all pilots are thinking). So, I recommend exactly what you do below with the exception that I stipulate to cross close but beyond the runway's end no matter what kind of airplane, fixed-gear or not:

I also do not cross at midfield. I cross on the upwind end of the runway. Maybe over the numbers, or slightly off the end, or maybe a little towards the center. But I do not cross at midfield. Reason being, I put my gear down at midfield downwind. If I cross at midfield, I've broken a link the the chain, because I can't ever be at a midfield downwind.

As for the descending turn you mention after semi-circling above the pattern ("circling" to assess the traffic situation and view the windsock and segmented circle in accordance with good operating practice being something you apparently don't believe in) it is done on the "upwind side" of the runway, not on the downwind leg side--after having just made a sweeping clearing turn of the area. This whole thread has become a discussion of how to fill the void in the AIM for entering from that side of the airport, so any AIM reference to not descending into the pattern was not meant to apply to that relatively quiet and clear side of the field which they otherwise ignore. But if you want, the turn can be widened to avoid the upwind leg then descend and reenter the upwind leg.

dtuuri

 

[jesse]

While my "team", which basically consists of all of the pilots in the world minus dtuuri may all do things a little differently. What we are all agreeing on, however, is that there is nothing illegal about entering the pattern on a midfield crosswind.

The most amazing thing though is to do your eyes. I can see if there are aircraft in the pattern and based on that I can adjust my entry to be the MOST compatible with the current situation. Sometimes that may be a midfield crosswind, sometimes it may be a crosswind past the departure end, other times it may be something entirely different. Flying is fluid and you need to be fluid. There is no one size fits all way of fitting into the flow of traffic.

 

[dtuuri]

While my "team", which basically consists of all of the pilots in the world minus dtuuri may all do things a little differently. What we are all agreeing on, however, is that there is nothing illegal about entering the pattern on a midfield crosswind.

You're a relatively new CFI, I take it, flying out of Nebraska? So, now you know what the rest of the world thinks?

The most amazing thing though is to do your eyes. I can see if there are aircraft in the pattern and based on that I can adjust my entry to be the MOST compatible with the current situation. Sometimes that may be a midfield crosswind, sometimes it may be a crosswind past the departure end, other times it may be something entirely different. Flying is fluid and you need to be fluid. There is no one size fits all way of fitting into the flow of traffic.

You've got plenty yet to learn, not the least of which is about the limitations of your eyesight. Start by reading the Morris Study I gave you the link for.

dtuuri

 

[EdFred]

Insults again, oh my what a surprise.

He said the runway is "known" (to the extent anybody knows what all pilots are thinking). So, I recommend exactly what you do below with the exception that I stipulate to cross close but beyond the runway's end no matter what kind of airplane, fixed-gear or not:


As for the descending turn you mention after semi-circling above the pattern ("circling" to assess the traffic situation and view the windsock and segmented circle in accordance with good operating practice being something you apparently don't believe in) it is done on the "upwind side" of the runway, not on the downwind leg side--after having just made a sweeping clearing turn of the area. This whole thread has become a discussion of how to fill the void in the AIM for entering from that side of the airport, so any AIM reference to not descending into the pattern was not meant to apply to that relatively quiet and clear side of the field which they otherwise ignore. But if you want, the turn can be widened to avoid the upwind leg then descend and reenter the upwind leg.

dtuuri

So you ignore the fact there may be planes flaying an upwind leg, and just plan on descending into them. Got it.

And since when are facts insults?

"Ed, you're white"

Insult!!!!

 

[dtuuri]

So you ignore the fact there may be planes entering an upwind leg side, and just plan on descending into them. Got it.

You just cleared the area. There's nobody going around. The leg is yours. But if it makes you feel better (I know you won't) procede away from the field then reappear at TPA.

dtuuri