Vision Jet autoland

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by jordane93, Oct 30, 2019.

  1. jrcox19

    jrcox19 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    May 5, 2019
    Messages:
    69
    Location:
    KIXD KOJC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jrcox19
    https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/166298
     
  2. Rockymountain

    Rockymountain Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Location:
    Ogden Utah
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Rockymountain
    Yeah should monitor guard. Could save your bacon one day when you are headed for that pop up TFR, unknown to you lost comms, or maybe just help a fellow pilot having a bad day out. Wish ATC would be more serious about triangulating that dang flying cat. Bugs the crap out of me. For pax listening in to ATC, they also seem to be pretty shocked at the behavior of some of the pro-pilots out there on guard.
     
    flyingcheesehead and Ted DuPuis like this.
  3. donjohnston

    donjohnston Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    881
    Location:
    Panama City, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Don
    It stops the plane on the runway? I didn't realize that. So in addition to autothrottles, the plane will also need autobrakes.

    And the automated recording says. "wait for aircraft and propeller to stop before exiting the aircraft." Which means that it also can shut down the engine.
     
  4. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,952
    Location:
    Iowa City, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    17
    So it’s designed to automatically starve the engine?

    Anybody find that worrisome? A combination of sensors and computer code that can, without any intent by the pilot, shut down the engine?
     
  5. AKBill

    AKBill En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2014
    Messages:
    2,773
    Location:
    Juneau, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AKBill
    I do.
    FDC 4/4386 FDC SPECIAL NOTICE... NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM INTERCEPT PROCEDURES. AVIATORS SHALL REVIEW THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION MANUAL (AIM) FOR INTERCEPTION PROCEDURES, CHAPTER 5, SECTION 6, PARAGRAPH 5-6-2. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF 243.0.
     
  6. donjohnston

    donjohnston Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    881
    Location:
    Panama City, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Don
    I would hope that circuitry is not functional until the button is pushed.
     
  7. AKiss20

    AKiss20 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AKiss20
    That’s true of literally any FADEC controlled engine. That’s why FADECs use multiple independent lanes, a voting system between lanes, and redundant sensors for critical things like TLA and cutoff position sensing but fundamentally everything is always controlled by “a combination of sensors and computer code” in modern FADEC engines (and by modern I really mean designed in the 1980s and up...)
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  8. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    9,556
    Location:
    Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    Speaking of autonomous landings...

    [​IMG]

    Good thing nothing was stopped on the runway!
     
  9. flyboyrv6

    flyboyrv6 Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2019
    Messages:
    11
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Flyboyrv6
    Is there a test mode? Or do you have to go the full routine including emergency calls in order to periodically verify the functionality?
     
  10. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    3,538
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    Yep, it gives that second radio something to do, and it rarely bothers you.
     
  11. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    3,538
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    Yeah, Cat III in a box.
     
  12. AKiss20

    AKiss20 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AKiss20
    Exactly. If the weather is IMC, the passengers are even more helpless and less useful than before (and they’re likely pretty helpless and useless if they’re pressing this button) so better that the system prioritize wind,landing distance available, and emergency services available than minimums. Box doesn’t care if you can’t see the runway.

    Note I mean helpless and useless here not as a pejorative but rather relating in the passengers ability to contribute to the situation.
     
  13. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    9,556
    Location:
    Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    I don’t have a second radio, but my primary is always on 121.5 if it’s not needed for other duties.
     
  14. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    9,556
    Location:
    Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    I don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but the Cirrus Jet also has an airframe parachute, so passengers have a second option if autoland is out of the question.
     
  15. AKiss20

    AKiss20 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AKiss20
    Yes it’s come up. Apparently if autoland is not possible for whatever reason, it will instruct passengers how to deploy CAPS.
     
  16. Sinistar

    Sinistar En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,853
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    So these are definitely easy to include in the price of the Vision and Meridian.

    I was going to ask about the accuracy over water but the Garmin product indicates it even works over choppy water. Otherwise I could just see the auto land pick a runway with water on the arrival end and then receive a false altimeter return that indicates a false (higher) altitude and then attempt to come down farther.
     
  17. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,962
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Yeah if I had the cash to buy an SF50, then I can afford the additional cost of the system. I read a rumor on FB of $130K. Sounds reasonable to me. Just the autopilot alone on our helicopter costs that much.

    Never seen any issues over water. If you fly over an open field, it’ll pick up a single tree. How far the radar is going into the tree or into tall grass is probably negligible. Obviously in a turn they aren’t accurate either.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
    Sinistar likes this.
  18. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    12,363
    Location:
    high desert NM
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Billy
    As soon as the automatic take off is operational will blind folks be able to fly.??
     
  19. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,486
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleDriver
    Let’s face it, the technology for fully automated flight is already available. Unlike automated driving, we not only have the vehicle technology but also the airspace and procedural infrastructure. We’re just not willing to turn it all on and use it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
  20. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    860
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    Not really. We're a hell of a long way out from safe, autonomous passenger carrying ops in civil aviation. Your kids won't fly aboard fully automated airliners, but your grandkids (more likely their great grandkids) might.
     
  21. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    9,556
    Location:
    Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    I think that’s poor reasoning.

    There is always a threshold. There is someone out there for whom $2.1 million is an extravagance that with the right finagling they can just barely make work, but an extra $100k puts it just out of range. Stipulated that for the super-rich, it won’t matter. But for the merely rich, I still hold there’s a limit to their budgets, where corners may have to be cut to make it happen at all.
     
  22. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,486
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleDriver
    With those qualifiers, we aren’t there yet. But considering the standards we hold passenger carrying aircraft to and the safety records that have already been achieved, the bar is quite high for auto pass carry ops.

    On the other hand, we are already doing autonomous aircraft ops by many measures.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  23. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    17,337
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    Will ATC be automated too?
     
  24. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    860
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    Yes. But those are drones. They won't be carrying passengers fully autonomously for many years. Let's not get carried away. We are not even close to autonomous civil aviation.
     
  25. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    1,736
    Location:
    Illinois / Germany
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NRG
    I think MCAS pushed that timeline back too a bit don’t you think?
     
  26. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,676
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3393RP

    The possibilities are endless.

    .

     
  27. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,676
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    3393RP
    Haven't you heard? Uber will be operating a fleet of autonomous VTOL air taxis in the airspace over our largest cities by 2023.
     
    AKiss20 likes this.
  28. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,014
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    Because actually flying the plane is just one small piece of aviating, in the same way that steering a car is a small piece of driving. The autonomous car drivers haven't come close to solving the trolley problems in 2 dimensions. It's going to be a long time before they're solved for aviation.
     
  29. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    9,556
    Location:
    Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    In most accident avoidance situations, the driver’s actions are largely or totally reflexive. I don’t think there’s generally time to ponder and select between conflicting trolley problem scenarios. Not necessarily the case with autonomous driving systems with much faster processing capability.
     
  30. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    3,538
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    Hopefully they are integrating the GPS altitude as a check. It ain't perfect, but it's better than relying on a single instrument.
     
  31. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    3,538
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    Since human error has a huge part in those accidents, perhaps the move to autonomy will be accelerated instead.
     
  32. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    860
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan Ferguson 1974
    Not holding my breath on that one...
     
    3393RP likes this.
  33. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,486
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleDriver
    Ryan, I agree with you. Read my original post; there is no mention of autonomous flight of passengers, just a statement that the technology is there and then some.

    Put another way, the technology is not a significant barrier as it is with automated cars. Or put another way, automated flight is significantly easier which is why we have drones that can do it and accomplish real tasks. 3D space is easier to deal with (e.g. aircraft separation by altitude) Automated driving is tougher. Roads are busy and are only 2D. Lot’s of exceptional activity, etc.




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  34. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,486
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleDriver
    No I don’t and perhaps just the opposite. Boeing (and the industry) was both challenged by and dependent on flight crews in the cockpit. On one hand crews are expensive. OTOH, while crews can generally be relived on to flexibly and accurately respond to faults and failures, they have to be trained and kept proficient which goes back to being expensive.

    The MCAS thing made that clear to everyone in the industry for whatever the half life of a large fatal aviation accident is. 10 - 20 - 30 years?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  35. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Messages:
    3,014
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lindberg
    That's precisely the problem though, isn't it? Computers don't encounter moral dilemmas. They just do as they're programmed to.

    It's paradoxical.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  36. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,104
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GeorgeC
    I thought this was interesting, from AOPA:
     
  37. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    3,538
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    I want my airplane programmed to get my passengers and me safely to the ground. If a nice soft group of senior soccer players are in the way, it wasn't my choice.
     
  38. The-Flying-Lawyer

    The-Flying-Lawyer Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2014
    Messages:
    65
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TFL
    There's a lot less to hit on the way to the garage/hanger, which is really the only thing holding back autonomous cars at this point.
     
  39. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2007
    Messages:
    2,486
    Location:
    Durham NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleDriver
    I’ve wondered whether the toughest task in auto flight given our current airspace infrastructure would be taxiing. Taxi is where non-manned aircraft would have to mix it up most closely with manned aircraft. Perhaps the portion of ‘flight’ where there is the most risk of swapping paint.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  40. jallen0

    jallen0 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    307
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jallen0
    Not if there is a relative size and positioning signal emanating from the airplane. That way another aircraft would be able to "see" a plane and "know" where it is, and how big it is, so as not to hit it. Basically it identifies the plane, or other objects, tracks it real time, and stays out of its way.