VFR minimums when flying the pattern

[ArrowFlyer86]

I apologize if these are a little silly from a practical perspective but it's something I've wondered about, especially since the weather here has been completely terrible the last 3 weeks. Now after being grounded for a while -- even flying the pattern sounds appealing just to get out there, but ceilings are barely marginal.

Question 1:
VFR mins in class D: 3sm viz, 500ft below clouds, 1k ft above clouds, 2k horizontal

As I write this -- ceilings are 1200' at my Class D home airport and lots of planes are buzzing around in the pattern. They're flying regular pattern altitudes (1k AGL) so they clearly can't maintain those clearances. Is there a special rule for flying in the pattern that alleviates this requirement to stay 500' below?

Question 2:
Since you're apparently allowed to fly in the pattern without maintaining those cloud clearances, what happens if the field updates their METAR and goes to IFR while you're in the pattern? Seems like it could happen any minute now. Do you technically have to request a special VFR clearance to land even though you're already in the pattern?

Any references to the FARs on this one?

 

[kaiser]

I apologize if these are a little silly from a practical perspective but it's something I've wondered about, especially since the weather here has been completely terrible the last 3 weeks. Now after being grounded for a while -- even flying the pattern sounds appealing just to get out there, but ceilings are barely marginal.

Question 1:
VFR mins in class D: 3sm viz, 500ft below clouds, 1k ft above clouds, 2k horizontal

As I write this -- ceilings are 1200' at my Class D home airport and lots of planes are buzzing around in the pattern. They're flying regular pattern altitudes (1k AGL) so they clearly can't maintain those clearances. Is there a special rule for flying in the pattern that alleviates this requirement to stay 500' below?

Question 2:
Since you're apparently allowed to fly in the pattern without maintaining those cloud clearances, what happens if the field updates their METAR and goes to IFR while you're in the pattern? Seems like it could happen any minute now. Do you technically have to request a special VFR clearance to land even though you're already in the pattern?

Any references to the FARs on this one?

SVFR

Edit: sorry I’m running around brewing and didn’t read your 2nd question thoroughly. Yes, if the field went IFR, you’d request at that time. Likely it would be after the most recent landing. They’d clear you to land. Full stop only, when you ask to taxi back for take off they’d say something like “field is IFR, state your intentions.”

During my primary training I spent a lesson doing pattern work on a day that was Clear but 2sm haze under SVFR. Since my CFIs taught me good tight patterns, it was no issue.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

SVFR

All of those operations are SVFR? I thought you had to explicitly ask for it? I guess I've never heard someone request that on the radio at DuPage...

 

[kaiser]

All of those operations are SVFR? I thought you had to explicitly ask for it? I guess I've never heard someone request that on the radio at DuPage...

I think practically speaking (and my experience at DPA), if the field isn’t IFR, they will let you just do pattern work and don’t enforce cloud clearances. Legally they should be on SVFR.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I think practically speaking (and my experience at DPA), if the field isn’t IFR, they will let you just do pattern work and don’t enforce cloud clearances. Legally they should be on SVFR.

That makes sense. Thank you sir!

 

[PaulS]

Class D 1200 feet, stay on the ground. Just because others are being morons doesn't mean you should too. My experience is 1200 foot ceilings can become 800 or 500 foot ceilings pretty quickly. Work on your instrument rating if you want to fly in that weather.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Class D 1200 feet, stay on the ground. Just because others are being morons doesn't mean you should too. My experience is 1200 foot ceilings can become 800 or 500 foot ceilings pretty quickly. Work on your instrument rating if you want to fly in that weather.

Even if you're just hanging in the pattern?
(And to clarify, my feet are planted firmly on the ground today )

 

[kaiser]

Class D 1200 feet, stay on the ground. Just because others are being morons doesn't mean you should too. My experience is 1200 foot ceilings can become 800 or 500 foot ceilings pretty quickly. Work on your instrument rating if you want to fly in that weather.

This is also very true. One should always have an out and go based on their risk tolerance. These situations will also vary by climate. I often consider SCT008 as IFR weather because around here that turns to BKN and OVC very fast. Also sometimes that OVC ceiling is jagged, so could be lower away from the weather station.

 

[Dana]

I've on occasion gone up to do a few low circuits of the pattern under an 700' ceiling... at my home field in G airspace.

 

[luvflyin]

I apologize if these are a little silly from a practical perspective but it's something I've wondered about, especially since the weather here has been completely terrible the last 3 weeks. Now after being grounded for a while -- even flying the pattern sounds appealing just to get out there, but ceilings are barely marginal.

Question 1:
VFR mins in class D: 3sm viz, 500ft below clouds, 1k ft above clouds, 2k horizontal

As I write this -- ceilings are 1200' at my Class D home airport and lots of planes are buzzing around in the pattern. They're flying regular pattern altitudes (1k AGL) so they clearly can't maintain those clearances. Is there a special rule for flying in the pattern that alleviates this requirement to stay 500' below?

Question 2:
Since you're apparently allowed to fly in the pattern without maintaining those cloud clearances, what happens if the field updates their METAR and goes to IFR while you're in the pattern? Seems like it could happen any minute now. Do you technically have to request a special VFR clearance to land even though you're already in the pattern?

Any references to the FARs on this one?

No special rule. Ya gotta be 500 below. Tower can use Visual Separation so it’s conceivable they could give SFVR to a flock of pattern rats. I doubt very much that was the case here. If they was flying the pattern at 1000 under 1200 foot clouds they was being bad. If the weather changes to IFR while in the Surface Area and a pilot has the airport in sight they can allow them to continue and land without issuing SVFR. I can’t think of a FAR that covers this off hand. I can’t do it right now, but I’ll try to remember to quote the Controllers rules on it when I can

 

[mondtster]

Class D 1200 feet, stay on the ground.

Would your answer be different if the airport was in uncontrolled airspace?

 

[TCABM]

SCT012 is different than BRK012 which is different than OVC012

 

[mondtster]

People have different weather minimums and thresholds for risk. What I may feel comfortable with doing in my personal aircraft is not the same as someone else.

If the visibility is good underneath a 1200’ overcast I don’t personally have too much concern over doing pattern work as long as the cloud clearances are maintained. Straying away from the airport may be a different matter depending on what and where I’m flying.

 

[mondtster]

SCT012 is different than BRK012 which is different than OVC012

And reduced visibility also is a factor. People don’t seem to discuss that much.

 

[PaulS]

Even if you're just hanging in the pattern?
(And to clarify, my feet are planted firmly on the ground today )

This is also very true. One should always have an out and go based on their risk tolerance. These situations will also vary by climate. I often consider SCT008 as IFR weather because around here that turns to BKN and OVC very fast. Also sometimes that OVC ceiling is jagged, so could be lower away from the weather station.

You made good decision IMO. It's hard sometimes.

Basically you wouldn't be legal. The controllers are probably sitting there saying, "what are these guys doing, don't they know they're not legal?" This becomes a normalization of deviance thing. It works out ok until it doesn't. A lower cloud blows in while you're climbing on upwind behind you, you turn crosswind to downwind, then everything disappears. If you don't lose control, you have to make a call to the tower and fess up. Now you are an emergency, if you make it back you have to deal with the FAA, all because of poor judgement.

Here is another scenario, there is 2 or 3 of you in the pattern, the guy ahead of you porpoises, snaps his nose gear and is stuck in the middle of the runway. Tower tells you the field is closed due to an emergency, it will probably be an hour or two, get lost. Now what do you do? You are basically low marginal VFR, your sig says Chicago, lots of towers nearby, you have to go somewhere else, scud running, dodging towers. Things look a lot different under those conditions, especially trying to see another field.

I think it's a bad decision to fly in those conditions without an instrument rating. Then you have to worry about ice in the winter.

Would your answer be different if the airport was in uncontrolled airspace?

No, just because something may be legal, doesn't mean you should.


I've talked about it a few times, I was returning to my home field, an untowered airport with a 5,900 foot runway, an ILS and LPV approaches. The day was 1,000 foot ceilings, I was on the ILS for 8, ATC tells me to switch to CTAF, and there is a guy flying patterns to 26. I call up, announce where I am on the ILS, he asks me if I want him to go out over the lake while I land. This is an area with mountains and large hills right near the airport and they were obscured. I didn't know who he was, he sounded like a student. I told him no, we would figure it out when I broke out. Fortunately I broke out high enough to circle, if not I would have had to go missed because of this guy who was not legal.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Here is another scenario, there is 2 or 3 of you in the pattern, the guy ahead of you porpoises, snaps his nose gear and is stuck in the middle of the runway. Tower tells you the field is closed due to an emergency, it will probably be an hour or two, get lost. Now what do you do? You are basically low marginal VFR, your sig says Chicago, lots of towers nearby, you have to go somewhere else, scud running, dodging towers. Things look a lot different under those conditions, especially trying to see another field.

It's funny you say that, because that happened to me in Kalamazoo KAZO last year. I was in the cue to land next while some guy was landing on runway 27 and something broke on his tailwheel airplane (I think tailwheel actually came off the plane IIRC). They have 3 runways, he was on the smallest one, but they still shutdown the airport and I was like "oh shi*". Obviously no one expects that to happen and doesn't plan around it (that specific kind of event). Thankfully I had just filled up and had enough fuel to keep going for hours if needed - circling the airport while talking to tower. But they were getting ready to push us all over to nearby Battle Creek. Not hard for me to imagine the same thing happening during those wx conditions!

 

[midlifeflyer]

All of those operations are SVFR? I thought you had to explicitly ask for it? I guess I've never heard someone request that on the radio at DuPage...

In some cases yes. Ive heard it done. In other cases, practically speaking, nobody cares unless an ASI is watching. That's not permission to violate the rules but ATC is not the cops and unless there is a potential loss of separation or you make their lives difficult, aren't in the business of reporting violations.

 

[PaulS]

Yeah, it's always tough when you see people doing stuff like this. At the end of the day I try not to let it influence me. My other thing is go/no go wx decisions. If I'm going somewhere I'll wait until a few hours before the flight to cancel. I had an airplane reserved for Saturday, but cancelled Friday because low ceilings were forecast. So I wake up Saturday morning to blue sky and sunshine, I think, "crap, I could have gone". But then I started looking at metars, and there it was basically 0/0 freezing fog all around me. So it was a good call.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The controllers are probably sitting there saying, "what are these guys doing, don't they know they're not legal?"

I have never met a tower controller who said anything like that, even if they knew what the regs are (most, not being pilots, simply go with “it’s IFR” or “it’s VFR” based on having 1000&3 or not.)

I’ve also had towers not make the transition to IFR until after we decided the weather was too crappy to keep flying. We told the tower we were done, and as we taxied in they turned the beacon on.

This becomes a normalization of deviance thing.

Absolutely.

 

[PaulS]

I have never met a tower controller who said anything like that, even if they knew what the regs are (most, not being pilots, simply go with “it’s IFR” or “it’s VFR” based on having 1000&3 or not.)

I’ve also had towers not make the transition to IFR until after we decided the weather was too crappy to keep flying. We told the tower we were done, and as we taxied in they turned the beacon on.


Absolutely.

I meant to each other, not the pilots, I listen to Opposing Bases, and based on how they talk, I'm willing to bet it happens, but I'm just guessing.

I do agree with you though, they are generally really helpful.

 

[iamtheari]

I've talked about it a few times, I was returning to my home field, an untowered airport with a 5,900 foot runway, an ILS and LPV approaches. The day was 1,000 foot ceilings, I was on the ILS for 8, ATC tells me to switch to CTAF, and there is a guy flying patterns to 26. I call up, announce where I am on the ILS, he asks me if I want him to go out over the lake while I land. This is an area with mountains and large hills right near the airport and they were obscured. I didn't know who he was, he sounded like a student. I told him no, we would figure it out when I broke out. Fortunately I broke out high enough to circle, if not I would have had to go missed because of this guy who was not legal.

I must have missed something. What was the other pilot doing that wasn’t legal?

 

[TCABM]

And reduced visibility also is a factor. People don’t seem to discuss that much.

Yep. Personally, I like 5NM or better for pattern work at my homedrome, but we can have tower running left closed on 14 and sequencing low approaches on 9 and then accept GPS32 circle to 14.

It’s all spaced out and legal but with HEMS and LEO helos based there too, it cam get challenging.

 

[luvflyin]

You made good decision IMO. It's hard sometimes.

Basically you wouldn't be legal. The controllers are probably sitting there saying, "what are these guys doing, don't they know they're not legal?" This becomes a normalization of deviance thing. It works out ok until it doesn't. A lower cloud blows in while you're climbing on upwind behind you, you turn crosswind to downwind, then everything disappears. If you don't lose control, you have to make a call to the tower and fess up. Now you are an emergency, if you make it back you have to deal with the FAA, all because of poor judgement.

Here is another scenario, there is 2 or 3 of you in the pattern, the guy ahead of you porpoises, snaps his nose gear and is stuck in the middle of the runway. Tower tells you the field is closed due to an emergency, it will probably be an hour or two, get lost. Now what do you do? You are basically low marginal VFR, your sig says Chicago, lots of towers nearby, you have to go somewhere else, scud running, dodging towers. Things look a lot different under those conditions, especially trying to see another field.

I think it's a bad decision to fly in those conditions without an instrument rating. Then you have to worry about ice in the winter.





No, just because something may be legal, doesn't mean you should.


I've talked about it a few times, I was returning to my home field, an untowered airport with a 5,900 foot runway, an ILS and LPV approaches. The day was 1,000 foot ceilings, I was on the ILS for 8, ATC tells me to switch to CTAF, and there is a guy flying patterns to 26. I call up, announce where I am on the ILS, he asks me if I want him to go out over the lake while I land. This is an area with mountains and large hills right near the airport and they were obscured. I didn't know who he was, he sounded like a student. I told him no, we would figure it out when I broke out. Fortunately I broke out high enough to circle, if not I would have had to go missed because of this guy who was not legal.

What was he doing that wasn’t legal?

 

[Sluggo63]

Class D 1200 feet, stay on the ground. Just because others are being morons doesn't mean you should too. My experience is 1200 foot ceilings can become 800 or 500 foot ceilings pretty quickly. Work on your instrument rating if you want to fly in that weather.

My experience is that 1800 foot ceilings can become 1200 foot ceilings pretty quickly. So I probably shouldn't go then either. But then again, 2500 foot ceilings can become 1800 foot ceilings pretty quickly as well. I guess I'll just keep the plane parked.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I meant to each other, not the pilots, I listen to Opposing Bases, and based on how they talk, I'm willing to bet it happens, but I'm just guessing.

AG and RH are a bit different, since they are both controllers and pilots. But even then, I doubt it. Maybe something about doing pattern work in lousy conditions is silly, but not, "ha ha, they are violating regs."

 

[sarangan]

I apologize if these are a little silly from a practical perspective but it's something I've wondered about, especially since the weather here has been completely terrible the last 3 weeks. Now after being grounded for a while -- even flying the pattern sounds appealing just to get out there, but ceilings are barely marginal.

Question 1:
VFR mins in class D: 3sm viz, 500ft below clouds, 1k ft above clouds, 2k horizontal

As I write this -- ceilings are 1200' at my Class D home airport and lots of planes are buzzing around in the pattern. They're flying regular pattern altitudes (1k AGL) so they clearly can't maintain those clearances. Is there a special rule for flying in the pattern that alleviates this requirement to stay 500' below?

Question 2:
Since you're apparently allowed to fly in the pattern without maintaining those cloud clearances, what happens if the field updates their METAR and goes to IFR while you're in the pattern? Seems like it could happen any minute now. Do you technically have to request a special VFR clearance to land even though you're already in the pattern?

Any references to the FARs on this one?

How do you know that they are not flying a 700 ft traffic pattern?

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

How do you know that they are not flying a 700 ft traffic pattern?

Watching the ADSB readout. I suppose it could be wrong, but I doubt all the planes would spontaneously choose to fly lower patterns...

 

[Vance Breese]

I apologize if these are a little silly from a practical perspective but it's something I've wondered about, especially since the weather here has been completely terrible the last 3 weeks. Now after being grounded for a while -- even flying the pattern sounds appealing just to get out there, but ceilings are barely marginal.

Question 1:
VFR mins in class D: 3sm viz, 500ft below clouds, 1k ft above clouds, 2k horizontal

As I write this -- ceilings are 1200' at my Class D home airport and lots of planes are buzzing around in the pattern. They're flying regular pattern altitudes (1k AGL) so they clearly can't maintain those clearances. Is there a special rule for flying in the pattern that alleviates this requirement to stay 500' below?

Question 2:
Since you're apparently allowed to fly in the pattern without maintaining those cloud clearances, what happens if the field updates their METAR and goes to IFR while you're in the pattern? Seems like it could happen any minute now. Do you technically have to request a special VFR clearance to land even though you're already in the pattern?

Any references to the FARs on this one?

Question 1: In my opinion distance from clouds in class D airspace is clear in § 91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:

Airspace

Flight visibility

Distance from clouds

Class D

3 statute miles

500 feet below. 1,000 feet above. 2,000 feet horizontal.

§ 91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.
(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in § 91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.

(b) Special VFR operations may only be conducted -

(1) With an ATC clearance;

(2) Clear of clouds;

(3) Except for helicopters, when flight visibility is at least 1 statute mile; and

(4) Except for helicopters, between sunrise and sunset (or in Alaska, when the sun is 6 degrees or less below the horizon) unless -

(i) The person being granted the ATC clearance meets the applicable requirements for instrument flight under part 61 of this chapter; and

(ii) The aircraft is equipped as required in § 91.205(d).

(c) No person may take off or land an aircraft (other than a helicopter) under special VFR -

(1) Unless ground visibility is at least 1 statute mile; or

(2) If ground visibility is not reported, unless flight visibility is at least 1 statute mile. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term flight visibility includes the visibility from the cockpit of an aircraft in takeoff position if:

(i) The flight is conducted under this part 91; and

(ii) The airport at which the aircraft is located is a satellite airport that does not have weather reporting capabilities.

(d) The determination of visibility by a pilot in accordance with paragraph (c)(2) of this section is not an official weather report or an official ground visibility report.

Question 2: It is not apparent to me that people violating the regulations changes the regulations.

In my opinion if the weather gets worse the risk of flying in it goes up.

 

[farmrjohn]

I must have missed something. What was the other pilot doing that wasn’t legal?

What was he doing that wasn’t legal?

How do you know that they are not flying a 700 ft traffic pattern?

I'll bite just to clarify my own confusion on a couple of points on this situation. If the uncontrolled airport has an instrument approach would that make it Class E airspace requiring the requisite cloud clearance and visibility? Wouldn't a 1200' ceiling mean either broken or overcast cloud cover agl? If an airport has a published traffic pattern altitude can you make continued patterns at a lower altitude? Can you get a special VFR clearance in Class E airspace?

 

[iamtheari]

I'll bite just to clarify my own confusion on a couple of points on this situation. If the uncontrolled airport has an instrument approach would that make it Class E airspace requiring the requisite cloud clearance and visibility? Wouldn't a 1200' ceiling mean either broken or overcast cloud cover agl? If an airport has a published traffic pattern altitude can you make continued patterns at a lower altitude? Can you get a special VFR clearance in Class E airspace?

My guess is that the airport he was referring to has Class E to the surface because he mentioned he was flying the ILS, although he didn't mention the airspace and it is possible that it was Class G. There are many airports with instrument approaches that are Class G up to 700 AGL. I'm based at one of them.

You can get an SVFR clearance in Class E airspace. Indeed, if it's Class E to the surface and the ceiling is less than 1,000 AGL, you are required to get SVFR or IFR clearance to fly at all. My war story about this was spending 1-1/2 days under a 900-foot ceiling at KFOD because the only thing that didn't work on the plane I was bringing home was the radio, so I couldn't call for an SVFR clearance.

 

[Jim K]

I was going to bring up the 700' pattern, but I forgot about adsb snooping. Our standard pattern altitude at cmi is 1500' (~750agl), and I've often wondered if it was implemented to give the flight school another 250' to work with.

The other thought is that the atis only comes out once an hour, and weather can change a lot in that time. Here it seems like they only issue speci's when the weather gets way worse, and sometimes not even then. Even the regular updates don't necessarily jive with real life. The only time I see them put a lot of effort into accuracy is when it's lowish ifr, and they'll change the atis if there's a conflicting pirep. I keep tabs on surrounding non-towered fields that report weather constantly to guess how accurate cmi's report is and which way it will be trending.

All that to say... it's probably still not a great idea. Entirely possible they were just willingly bending the rules and are a bored asi away from a violation...or worse as other posters have brought up.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Our standard pattern altitude at cmi is 1500' (~750agl), and I've often wondered if it was implemented to give the flight school another 250' to work with.

There was a time when standard patterns were 800 AGL. Not sure why they decided 1000 was better.

 

[RussR]

Two points.

1. Pattern work at 1000 when the ceiling is 1200 is a violation. There is no exception for pattern work.

2. ATC is not the pattern or cloud police.

 

[sarangan]

I apologize if these are a little silly from a practical perspective but it's something I've wondered about, especially since the weather here has been completely terrible the last 3 weeks. Now after being grounded for a while -- even flying the pattern sounds appealing just to get out there, but ceilings are barely marginal.

Question 1:
VFR mins in class D: 3sm viz, 500ft below clouds, 1k ft above clouds, 2k horizontal

As I write this -- ceilings are 1200' at my Class D home airport and lots of planes are buzzing around in the pattern. They're flying regular pattern altitudes (1k AGL) so they clearly can't maintain those clearances. Is there a special rule for flying in the pattern that alleviates this requirement to stay 500' below?

Question 2:
Since you're apparently allowed to fly in the pattern without maintaining those cloud clearances, what happens if the field updates their METAR and goes to IFR while you're in the pattern? Seems like it could happen any minute now. Do you technically have to request a special VFR clearance to land even though you're already in the pattern?

Any references to the FARs on this one?

While it is true that ATC is not policing VFR visibility and cloud clearances, the reason why those minimums exist is for providing separation services. If there is an inbound IFR airplane, the controller would know well ahead of time, and since radio communication is required in class D, it is not difficult to vector the VFR airplane away from the approach path. However, if such a vector would cause the VFR airplane to lose sight of the runway and get lost in the clouds, well, then that is where pilot judgement comes into play. Not everything that is illegal is unsafe, nor everything that is legal is necessarily safe. Once I encountered a VFR airplane in the traffic while I was flying an approach in IMC with a 200 ft ceiling. He was flying traffic patterns below the ceiling. Why anyone would do such a thing is beyond me. This was at an uncontrolled airport, so it was legal. But certainly not safe.

 

[PaulS]

I must have missed something. What was the other pilot doing that wasn’t legal?

What was he doing that wasn’t legal?

The airport in my case was Class g to 700 agl, Class E above that. I broke out at 1,000 feet agl, and stayed just below the clouds to circle. I had this guy on adsb, he was flying 1,000' agl patterns, pretty much bumping the clouds. He was also making calls on the radio. Class E requires vfr traffic to be 500' below the clouds. He wasn't legal, he shouldn't have been there. After I landed, someone called him and told him it was time to hang it up for the day. He apparently and been doing this for over an hour. About a half an hour after I landed the ceiling lowered to 500 feet.

My experience is that 1800 foot ceilings can become 1200 foot ceilings pretty quickly. So I probably shouldn't go then either. But then again, 2500 foot ceilings can become 1800 foot ceilings pretty quickly as well. I guess I'll just keep the plane parked.

Why screw around with weather that low? File ifr and don't worry about it. My minimum is 3,000 agl for vfr. I will push that by a few hundred feet if I'm not going far and there is a favorable forecast, but I'm instrument rated and proficient, so my back up is to get a pop up. Conditions worse than that I file or stay home.

 

[Clip4]

Question 1: In my opinion distance from clouds in class D airspace is clear in § 91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:

Airspace

Flight visibility

Distance from clouds

Class D

3 statute miles

500 feet below. 1,000 feet above. 2,000 feet horizontal.

§ 91.157 Special VFR weather minimums.
(a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in § 91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.

(b) Special VFR operations may only be conducted -

(1) With an ATC clearance;

(2) Clear of clouds;

(3) Except for helicopters, when flight visibility is at least 1 statute mile; and

(4) Except for helicopters, between sunrise and sunset (or in Alaska, when the sun is 6 degrees or less below the horizon) unless -

(i) The person being granted the ATC clearance meets the applicable requirements for instrument flight under part 61 of this chapter; and

(ii) The aircraft is equipped as required in § 91.205(d).

(c) No person may take off or land an aircraft (other than a helicopter) under special VFR -

(1) Unless ground visibility is at least 1 statute mile; or

(2) If ground visibility is not reported, unless flight visibility is at least 1 statute mile. For the purposes of this paragraph, the term flight visibility includes the visibility from the cockpit of an aircraft in takeoff position if:

(i) The flight is conducted under this part 91; and

(ii) The airport at which the aircraft is located is a satellite airport that does not have weather reporting capabilities.

(d) The determination of visibility by a pilot in accordance with paragraph (c)(2) of this section is not an official weather report or an official ground visibility report.

Question 2: It is not apparent to me that people violating the regulations changes the regulations.

In my opinion if the weather gets worse the risk of flying in it goes up.

(c) Except as provided in § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.

(d) Except as provided in § 91.157 of this part, no person may take off or land an aircraft, or enter the traffic pattern of an airport, under VFR, within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport -

(1) Unless ground visibility at that airport is at least 3 statute miles; or

(2) If ground visibility is not reported at that airport, unless flight visibility during landing or takeoff, or while operating in the traffic pattern is at least 3 statute miles.

And then there is 91.119. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

 

[iamtheari]

The airport in my case was Class g to 700 agl, Class E above that. I broke out at 1,000 feet agl, and stayed just below the clouds to circle. I had this guy on adsb, he was flying 1,000' agl patterns, pretty much bumping the clouds. He was also making calls on the radio. Class E requires vfr traffic to be 500' below the clouds. He wasn't legal, he shouldn't have been there. After I landed, someone called him and told him it was time to hang it up for the day. He apparently and been doing this for over an hour. About a half an hour after I landed the ceiling lowered to 500 feet.

Thanks for explaining the airspace. Which airport was this? As I mentioned, I had laid odds that it was Class E to the surface because of the ILS and I'm curious where I can find an ILS into a Class G airport. It could come in handy on Jeopardy someday.

Yes, the guy was in violation at his pattern altitude. And the airspace was there to protect your instrument approach. I think it's a point in favor of ADS-B and CTAF as a backup to see and avoid.

 

[PaulS]

Thanks for explaining the airspace. Which airport was this? As I mentioned, I had laid odds that it was Class E to the surface because of the ILS and I'm curious where I can find an ILS into a Class G airport. It could come in handy on Jeopardy someday.

Yes, the guy was in violation at his pattern altitude. And the airspace was there to protect your instrument approach. I think it's a point in favor of ADS-B and CTAF as a backup to see and avoid.

The airport is LCI, check me on the airspace, I think I have it right, generally I don't concern myself as to whether it's G or E as I try not to fly VFR in crappy weather.

It was funny on that day, I was a little miffed he was flying patterns, there was a plane ahead of me, I don't know how they managed it. But I didn't want him to fly out over the lake for me. I think ideally were I in his shoes in those conditions, I would have done a full stop taxi back to let the approach aircraft land. Anyway, it worked out as it usually does if you are talking on the radio.

 

[luvflyin]

I apologize if these are a little silly from a practical perspective but it's something I've wondered about, especially since the weather here has been completely terrible the last 3 weeks. Now after being grounded for a while -- even flying the pattern sounds appealing just to get out there, but ceilings are barely marginal.

Question 1:
VFR mins in class D: 3sm viz, 500ft below clouds, 1k ft above clouds, 2k horizontal

As I write this -- ceilings are 1200' at my Class D home airport and lots of planes are buzzing around in the pattern. They're flying regular pattern altitudes (1k AGL) so they clearly can't maintain those clearances. Is there a special rule for flying in the pattern that alleviates this requirement to stay 500' below?

Question 2:
Since you're apparently allowed to fly in the pattern without maintaining those cloud clearances, what happens if the field updates their METAR and goes to IFR while you're in the pattern? Seems like it could happen any minute now. Do you technically have to request a special VFR clearance to land even though you're already in the pattern?

Any references to the FARs on this one?

Here's what the Controllers rules say about the weather changing from VFR to IFR when you're already in the Surface Area.

Clear an aircraft to land at an airport with an operating control tower, traffic permitting, if the pilot reports the airport in sight. The pilot is responsible to continue to the airport or exit the surface area. 14 CFR Section 91.157 prohibits VFR aircraft (other than helicopters) from landing at any airport within a surface area when ground visibility is less than 1 mile. A pilot could inadvertently encounter conditions that are below SVFR minimums after entering a surface area due to rapidly changing weather. The pilot is best suited to determine the action to be taken since pilots operating under SVFR between sunrise and sunset are not required to be instrument rated, and the possibility exists that flight visibility may not be the same as ground visibility. 14 CFR Section 91.3 authorizes a pilot encountering an inflight emergency requiring immediate action to deviate from any rule of 14 CFR Part 91 to the extent required to meet that emergency. Flight into adverse weather conditions may require the pilot to execute the emergency authority granted in 14 CFR Section 91.3 and continue inbound to land.

 

[mondtster]

The airport is LCI, check me on the airspace, I think I have it right, generally I don't concern myself as to whether it's G or E as I try not to fly VFR in crappy weather.

It was funny on that day, I was a little miffed he was flying patterns, there was a plane ahead of me, I don't know how they managed it. But I didn't want him to fly out over the lake for me. I think ideally were I in his shoes in those conditions, I would have done a full stop taxi back to let the approach aircraft land. Anyway, it worked out as it usually does if you are talking on the radio.

Controlled airspace at that airport starts at 700’. Depending on the altitude that they were flying circuits at they could have been totally legal.

Many of the airplanes and helicopters I fly are VFR only. Depending on the circumstances I have no problem flying close to VFR minimums. That will certainly make some people uncomfortable but some of us don’t have the option to just file and fly.