VFR into IMC

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aanderson81

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aanderson81
Good Afternoon

I am currently going for my sport pilot and one thing that I keep seeing coming up fairly frequently is scud running and / or VFR into IMC.

I figured I would ask a few questions on how to best deal with these situations in the event that I ever find myself in such a position. (Not that I plan on it)

I understand that the first choice is to avoid these circumstances through planning or diverting. However my question is more along the line if you find yourself in a circumstance where neither are an option at that point. What is the best way to address the issue and what are the proper procedures?

I am assuming the best choice is to have a come to jesus moment and contact ATC and advice them of the situation and seek their guidance on a diversion.
 
Keep the airplane under control and try to do a 180 to get back into VMC. Controlling the airplane will require complete reliance on your instruments until you exit IMC: attitude indicator, airspeed indicator and heading indicator will be primary in this situation. Focus on the instruments and tell yourself to trust them.

If you can't quickly get out of IMC, then once you have the aircraft stabilized you should contact ATC and advise them of your predicament.

First and foremost, as always: Fly the Airplane!
 
Being a pilot means being a student of weather. I still look at the METARS and TAFS and then look out the window. Also, each flight is a learning experience, comparing what was forecast versus what was actually seen. After a while, you will figure out your "minimums" -which, at least in my case, are more ridged than what is "legal".

Here in Arkansas, if the humidity is high and the clouds are low - it doesn't take much to turn that humidity into haze. So leave yourself an "out" - a place to land.

BUT - the weather does not change super fast. It isn't like you launch into the clear and suddenly find yourself in IMC.
 
Thanks for the input.

This is more of a food for thought thread.

I hope to not get into a situation where I ever have to call upon it. But I figured it was a decent discussion to have being that the weather can change fairly quickly (no excuse I know) in New England it would be helpful to be able to think back and go, hrmm, i remember this conversation rather than cursing myself and trying to figure it out in the air.
 
Seriously - you will have to read and anticipate the weather. Even then, expect things to change. The more varied the conditions are during your training, the better you will get at it.
 
I think the default "make a 180" is poor advice. Certainly it may be the best way out, but if that's your first option, then you're not analyzing the situation well.

Overcontrolling is a threat to a non-IFR rated or non-current pilot and a 180 is recipe for that.

"Don't get it into it" is also a poor oversimplification. Often the conditions change slowly and the pilot doesn't recognize until it's too late, then the 180 is definitely a poor option.

Become a student of weather only reduces the likelihood, but does not solve the problem if one gets into it. I happened to find myself in Night VFR-IMC right after a Wx class with ScottD. I had a lot of people look at it afterwards and they commented that my Wx analysis was reasonable.

Only real solution is good training in instrument interpretation and being able to fly the airplane solely by reference to those instruments.
 
Find a CFII and get some training in real IFR, then keep yourself away from it.

One thing I have learned in my IFR training is just how fast the weather can go from "This isn't so bad, whats the big deal with this IFR stuff?" to "Holy $xxx! I screwed that up!! I'm glad I have a CFII next to me."

With some training and knowledge of the terrain and obstacles ahead, you should be able stay alive until you exit the bad weather after "hopefully going back where you came from". My suggestion would be to do your 180, then if you do not see the light, climb and confess. I'm certain whatever the extent of the humiliation or penalty, your life will be of more importance. Also remember that when you fly into clouds, there may be IFR airplanes already in there.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I think the default "make a 180" is poor advice. Certainly it may be the best way out, but if that's your first option, then you're not analyzing the situation well.

Overcontrolling is a threat to a non-IFR rated or non-current pilot and a 180 is recipe for that.

"Don't get it into it" is also a poor oversimplification. Often the conditions change slowly and the pilot doesn't recognize until it's too late, then the 180 is definitely a poor option.

Become a student of weather only reduces the likelihood, but does not solve the problem if one gets into it. I happened to find myself in Night VFR-IMC right after a Wx class with ScottD. I had a lot of people look at it afterwards and they commented that my Wx analysis was reasonable.

Only real solution is good training in instrument interpretation and being able to fly the airplane solely by reference to those instruments.
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The premise behind the 180 advice is predicated on the fact you've just come from there and it was obviously better than where you are right now. That said, if you've done your homework and happen to *know* this is a local phenomena and getter conditions are just ahead, then maybe going forward makes sense. Otherwise, I'll stick with the 180. This presumes the pilot has received proper training and knows how to do a standard rate turn for 60 seconds, which they should be able to do before cross country work commences.
 
Sometimes those clouds that appear to be at least 500 feet above you turn out to not be quite that far away. Pulling the power while keeping the wings level can drop you out the bottom (assuming you could see some distance ahead a couple moments before you were surprised by the grey). Otherwise a U turn.

But the order of actions is aviate, navigate, then communicate. No one on the ground can help you keep the airplane upright. They may help you find a less overcast place to go if you are solidly in the cloud, but this is more likely if you find yourself stuck on top when the forecast turns out to be wrong (like they always do). But flying over the top (in addition to being stupid if you don't have good imc skills for when the inevitable happens) is not legal as a sport pilot.

Scud running you most often find ceiling and visibility coming down and / or ground coming up. You may or may not be high enough for anyone to see you on radar, so you need to know where you are. ATC may be able to point you towards an airport with the least bad weather but there is not guarantee you can get there from where you are. The best thing is to be able to say enough is enough and get your butt on the ground before it gets that bad. If push comes to shove, it's better to put it into a field than crash trying to get to a runway.

Things to remember when scud running:
Slow down. You have twice as much time to spot and avoid that tower at 50 than you do at 100.
If you have the opportunity to land and think things through on the ground take it.
Have an out. Where is the nearest airport? Can I plant it somewhere if I can't make it to an airport?
Low ceilings OR low visibility can be OK. Low ceilings AND low vis. is a good way to die.
Towers are not built in the middle of a road.
Never bet your life on a forecast.
If weather is worst than forecast, it will usually continue to deteriorate even more
Precipitation and near freezing temperatures are not a good combination.
Better to break a regulation than to break an airplane.
Better to break an airplane then to break your body. (Skin, tin, ticket)
No one on the ground can fly the airplane for you.
 
If you are VFR in IMC, confess to ATC. They will help you as much as possible to get you out of it.
 
The OP said he's going for his sport pilot. I don't know the training regs for that - does it introduce you to hoodwork at all?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Things to remember when scud running:
. . .
Have an out. Where is the nearest airport? Can I plant it somewhere if I can't make it to an airport?
. . .
Click to expand...
Peter Garrison had a diffreent take:

"There are some simple rules to remember about scud running. Don't do it at night. Don't fly toward deteriorating weather -- by the time you decide to turn around, it may have shut down behind you. Don't follow the bright spots -- "sucker holes" -- but hold a heading and follow landmarks instead. Don't fly under a ragged, foggy overcast; stick to the nice crisp ones with clear air underneath. If you're down so low that you can read the Surgeon General's warnings on the billboards, give up and land."
 
Matthew said:
The OP said he's going for his sport pilot. I don't know the training regs for that - does it introduce you to hoodwork at all?
Click to expand...

I don't believe so. It doesn't require night work either. I am specifically requesting both from my instructor as I think its good to have.
 
aanderson81 said:
I don't believe so. It doesn't require night work either. I am specifically requesting both from my instructor as I think its good to have.
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Good idea - it will at least teach you WHY you want to avoid flying into IMC. And flying at night is fun!

Also, since you are planning on doing that: I THINK (and a CFI might be able to answer this) that an CFI_SP training you in night or simulated instruments might not allow you to use that logged experience later if you choose to go to PP, but a "regular" CFI training you for SP CAN allow you to log that experience later. I don't know all the details on how that works, but I think there is an advantage to getting your SP from a CFI over a CFI-SP. Something to axe about.
 
You can't use any dual given from a Sport Pilot CFI for any other rating. That is why it is recommended to use a full CFI, if you ever have a thought of doing Private.
 
aanderson81 said:
Thanks for the input.

This is more of a food for thought thread.

I hope to not get into a situation where I ever have to call upon it. But I figured it was a decent discussion to have being that the weather can change fairly quickly (no excuse I know) in New England it would be helpful to be able to think back and go, hrmm, i remember this conversation rather than cursing myself and trying to figure it out in the air.
Click to expand...

It happens to the best of us. :D

They call it "Inadvertent IFR". I was caught on top after launching into MVFR. The clouds kept getting lower, and closed in behind me after I did the 180 thing. I decided to go IFR and climbed. I started out at 800' MSL (southern Mississippi) and broke out around 10,000'. :eek:

I remembered my ultra light instructor (I was not a PPL at this time :eek:) telling me the 4 "C"s "Communicate, Confess, Comply, Conserve". I got ahold of ATC and they vectored me to the highest ceilings in the area with no towers and I descended from 13,500' msl to 2,500' agl through the clouds and icing. :eek:

TATC saved my bacon and I never heard a word from the FAA. Always better to ask for help than become the subject of a fatality report.

The best thing to do is avoid the situation. Set minimums and stick to them. If you do get caught IFR don't panic, remember the 4 "C".
 
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ja_user said:
You can't use any dual given from a Sport Pilot CFI for any other rating. That is why it is recommended to use a full CFI, if you ever have a thought of doing Private.
Click to expand...

I am using a full CFI
 
aanderson81 said:
Thanks for the input.

This is more of a food for thought thread.

I hope to not get into a situation where I ever have to call upon it. But I figured it was a decent discussion to have being that the weather can change fairly quickly (no excuse I know) in New England it would be helpful to be able to think back and go, hrmm, i remember this conversation rather than cursing myself and trying to figure it out in the air.
Click to expand...

The answer really is that, especially as a sport pilot who is limited to daytime flying, there is no legitimate reason for you to be in that situation. Like most other pilot-induced accidents, there is rarely a single event that leads to a VFR into IMC fatality. It's more usually a chain of bad decisions.

Think about what you are actually asking: "After making a whole bunch of bad decisions that put me into a situation with a high fatality rate, I expect to make a good one to get me out of it." I don't think that's realistic.

The time to get out of it is before it happens. A decent weather briefing. A route with options. Keeping up with changes in the weather as you go. A willingness to stop short of the destination and divert before running into trouble.

I learned how to fly in New England so I know there's no excuse, not even there. I even had deteriorating weather on my "long" student cross country (which was longer than it is now). The route was 7B2 KPWM KLEB 7B2 and on the way to Lebanon, the weather started to deteriorate.
 
Geico266 said:
It happens to the best of us. :D

They call it "Inadvertent IFR". I was caught on top after launching into MVFR. The clouds kept getting lower, and closed in behind me after I did the 180 thing. I decided to go IFR and climbed. I started out at 800' MSL (southern Mississippi) and broke out around 10,000'. :eek:

I remembered my ultra light instructor (I was not a PPL at this time :eek:) telling me the 4 "C"s "Communicate, Confess, Comply, Conserve". I got ahold of ATC and they vectored me to the highest ceilings in the area with no towers and I descended from 13,500' msl to 2,500' agl through the clouds and icing. :eek:

TATC saved my bacon and I never heard a word from the FAA. Always better to ask for help than become the subject of a fatality report.

The best thing to do is avoid the situation. Set minimums and stick to them. If you do get caught IFR don't panic, remember the 4 "C".
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I think you're thinking IIMC, inadvertent IMC.

Helo guys have a whole procedure for it. Normally it's something like wings level, climb power and climb configuration for known safe altitude (which they plan ahead of time), only small turns to avoid known obsticals, then 7700, declare a emergency and ask for vectors to VMC, or a PAR, ASR or no gyros approach.
 
aanderson81 said:
Good Afternoon

I am currently going for my sport pilot and one thing that I keep seeing coming up fairly frequently is scud running and / or VFR into IMC.

I figured I would ask a few questions on how to best deal with these situations in the event that I ever find myself in such a position. (Not that I plan on it)

I understand that the first choice is to avoid these circumstances through planning or diverting. However my question is more along the line if you find yourself in a circumstance where neither are an option at that point. What is the best way to address the issue and what are the proper procedures?

I am assuming the best choice is to have a come to jesus moment and contact ATC and advice them of the situation and seek their guidance on a diversion.
Click to expand...

As a sport pilot you are REQUIRED to get on the ground if you cannot turn around and get back into VFR minimums. Simply stated, you are not allowed to play with special VMC or IMC at all.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Only real solution is good training in instrument interpretation and being able to fly the airplane solely by reference to those instruments.
Click to expand...

The real solution is to heed the VFR minimums (cloud clearances, visibility) and not try to push ahead and see if it gets better.

"get there itis" is something that gets more pilots in trouble than anything else. That and a lack of training and currency.
 
CTLSi said:
As a sport pilot you are REQUIRED to get on the ground if you cannot turn around and get back into VFR minimums. Simply stated, you are not allowed to play with VMC or IMC at all.
Click to expand...

If they "aren't allowed to play with VMC" then how will they ever get off the ground? :rolleyes:
 
RotorAndWing said:
If they "aren't allowed to play with VMC" then how will they ever get off the ground? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Oops, sorry I meant to say special VMC...special clearance for near IMC conditions.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
I think the default "make a 180" is poor advice. Certainly it may be the best way out, but if that's your first option, then you're not analyzing the situation well.

Overcontrolling is a threat to a non-IFR rated or non-current pilot and a 180 is recipe for that.

"Don't get it into it" is also a poor oversimplification. Often the conditions change slowly and the pilot doesn't recognize until it's too late, then the 180 is definitely a poor option.

Become a student of weather only reduces the likelihood, but does not solve the problem if one gets into it. I happened to find myself in Night VFR-IMC right after a Wx class with ScottD. I had a lot of people look at it afterwards and they commented that my Wx analysis was reasonable.

Only real solution is good training in instrument interpretation and being able to fly the airplane solely by reference to those instruments.
Click to expand...

That isn't a solution, it is preparation. But what do you do with the airplane after popping into a cloud that you couldn't see at night? Your "only real solution" above doesn't address what to do. Yes, fly by instruments of course. But then what?

If you have that training, which we all get during primary training, then why not do a 180 and head back to where the vis was better? Getting "good training in instrument interpretation" does not preclude, in fact it bodes well for, the 180 turn. If the 180 doesn't get you out of it, ATC is your friend.

"Become a student of weather" is excellent advice and is germaine to the OP's question of how to prevent that encounter in the first place.
 
aanderson81 said:
I am assuming the best choice is to have a come to jesus moment and contact ATC and advice them of the situation and seek their guidance on a diversion.
Click to expand...
You are assuming correctly, although before (or while) you do that you start a climb to a safe altitude and pray that the "big sky" theory keeps you from running into another airplane. That might sound risky, but running into another plane is a lot less likely than running into the ground if you stay low.
 
CTLSi said:
As a sport pilot you are REQUIRED to get on the ground if you cannot turn around and get back into VFR minimums.
Click to expand...
That's not quite true. There's nothing that says once you reach that point you absolutely have to land it wherever you are regardless of the conditions on the ground. Obviously landing at a nearby airport would be the best choice, but that may not be possible. In that emergency situation, your best bet (and what the FAA recommends), is "Climb, Conserve, Confess" -- climb to a safe altitude, throttle back to conserve your fuel, and get on 121.5 and call for help from anyone who can assist you.

Simply stated, you are not allowed to play with special VMC or IMC at all.
Click to expand...
There is no such thing as "special VMC". You really need to learn what the regulations say before you start posting incorrect information.
 
coloradobluesky said:
My solution has been to land ASAP
Click to expand...
"ASAP" in this situation does not necessarily mean "right here, right now". It may require climbing to a safe altitude and communicating with ATC to get you somewhere you can land safely in the shortest amount of time, which could be a long way from "immediately".
 
CTLSi said:
As a sport pilot you are REQUIRED to get on the ground if you cannot turn around and get back into VFR minimums. Simply stated, you are not allowed to play with special VMC or IMC at all.
Click to expand...
VFR minimums for a sport pilot in class G below 1200 AGL are daytime (sport pilot limit) 3 miles visibility (sport pilot limit), clear of clouds (class G limit) and have a visual reference to the surface (sport pilot limit). Plenty low enough to not leave any wiggle room if things go south.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The real solution is to heed the VFR minimums (cloud clearances, visibility) and not try to push ahead and see if it gets better.

"get there itis" is something that gets more pilots in trouble than anything else. That and a lack of training and currency.
Click to expand...

That advice doesn't solve the problem as VFR only pilots prove.
 
Ron Levy said:
"ASAP" in this situation does not necessarily mean "right here, right now". It may require climbing to a safe altitude and communicating with ATC to get you somewhere you can land safely in the shortest amount of time, which could be a long way from "immediately".
Click to expand...

Not directed at Ron but to the idea: If your strategy is to land ASAP, why? You've already solved the immediate problem which is maintaing control of the airplane. If you need to gather your nerve and reassess, that may be prudent if necessary but the advice offers nothing to the pilot who finds himself in the situation.
 
Most important, Don't panic!!!!!!!!! Get some time with the under the hood and understand what it takes to fly in IMC.
 
ASAP...

Only if on fire.

But as my uncle has said, if the engine falls off, I'm jumping out.....
 
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