VFR into IMC

I had hood time

Thats good to hear. I know its not technically required, but if they weren't going to offer it, i was going to specifically ask for it. Same goes for night flying.

And this isn't so much about my planning to push my boundaries or anything. It was just something I was thinking about when I was doing some reading. Its more about thinking about the worst case situation and not trying to plan to push my limits.

As its said so often in regards to the Accident Chain where if you break the link prior to the accident you can prevent the accident I am just trying to consider worst case situations I can anticipate and provide some thoughts as to providing another point where i can identify and break the chain.

That said I know what the minimums are and that with proper planning you "shouldn't" get into the situation. Just in the same way you shouldn't run out of gas. But between that and VFR into IMC these seem like unfortunately common preventable issues.

I hope everyone who is getting so wrapped up over "you should never get to this point" can understand that this is a thought experiment to try to add a bit more "experience" into the bucket in the hopes that if it ever comes to that I don't need to pull as much from the luck bucket.
 
The OP said he's going for his sport pilot. I don't know the training regs for that - does it introduce you to hoodwork at all?

61.301 through 61.327. I assume that you have a copy of the regs.

Bob Gardner
 
The no night training is more understandable. Night time is completely predictable, so I would think it's harder to be caught off guard all of a sudden at night.
But I don't see why the regulations don't mandate instrument time for sport pilots.
Not that the mandatory hours make you so proficient, but it's low enough that I would think they would have left that in the sport requirements.

My instructor went over double the time on hood time, and also did some things that (I think) are not required (partial panel, compass turns, fly an ILS approach). I didn't ask for it, but I didn't complain either. Like he said, it might come in handy some day (and it was interesting to see anyway).
 
Lots of good advice here (along with some noise).

IMO, there is no "one size fits all" procedure to follow if you find yourself in IMC while flying under VFR. First and foremost is staying out of IMC. To that end, setting minimum weather conditions for yourself that leave some margin if things turn out worse than expected. For private pilots the rules say you can fly in sparsely populated areas when the visibility is 1sm and the ceiling is high enough that you can avoid the clouds while remaining at least 500 ft from people and structures but in most cases those conditions are way, way worse than any sane pilot would attempt VFR flight. I'd recommend using 5sm and 1500 AGL ceilings as an absolute minimum acceptable weather and you should be ready/willing to turn around and/or land at the nearest suitable airport should you encounter something worse than that. You should be especially wary of the combination of reduced visibility AND low clouds.

There are several ways pilots manage to end up in IMC "accidentally" and the escape plan should be tailored to the specific situation.

The most common AFaIK is when a pilot runs into gradually deteriorating weather. At first it might be that the visibility starts to get worse, going from 6+ to 4 then 3 and worse. But since the decline is gradual it doesn't trigger an immediate need to do something other than continue ahead. Usually there's some wishful thinking that the visibility will start getting better soon or at least not get any worse. Ironically the fact that you can no longer see very far ahead makes it more difficult to tell if it's better or worse further along. And it's often the case that the visibility decline isn't monotonic, it often does get a little better for a while even though the trend is down. Human nature is such that we are likely to interpret an occasional improvement as the trend even though the improvements are far outnumbered by the deteriorations. Same thing applies to gradually dropping cloud bases or shrinking spaces between clouds if you're on top of a scattered layer.

The avoidance remedy is to start with a hard limit for the visibility and clouds and teaching yourself to recognize when such limits are crossed. And once you find yourself on the other side of a limit, execute a withdrawal immediately even if you think there's a chance things will get better soon.

But if you do fall into this trap, there are some things you can do to increase your chances of escape. Number one on the list is to keep the bank and pitch angles fairly small, relying on your attitude indicator for feedback. If you have an autopilot and know how to use it this would be a good time to turn it on but when you do, pay very close attention to the AI and be ready to retake control if things don't look right.

Then you need to assess your situation. Are you high enough to avoid any towers or terrain in the general area by at least 1000 ft? If not a shallow climb is called for but if you're already plenty high you're likely better off just holding altitude. Did you suddenly find yourself in a cloud or did it just gradually get harder to see ahead? In the former case a gradual turn of 180 degrees will probably get you back to better conditions. Or was the visibility pretty good but you were near the cloud bases and accidentally climbed into them? In that case a shallow descent of a few hundred fee without turning could put you back below the bases, but never descend unless you were at least 2000 feet above any terrain or obstacles just before you went IMC. OTOH, if you were above some clouds and accidentally dropped into one, climbing (gradually) with wings level would be a very good idea.

If maneuvering (descending and or turning around as appropriate) doesn't solve the problem, go ahead and climb higher and try to reach ATC. Call them on 121.5 rather than trying to look up a local frequency even if you know how to find them. You might even consider dialing in 121.5 on one radio (you're suppose to be monitoring it anyway) if the weather is anywhere near close to your minimums so you don't have to change frequency while trying to maintain control in IMC.

If you do need to do anything besides flying the plane (e.g. tuning a radio, switching fuel tanks, picking up a microphone, programming a GPS, etc) break whatever task you're attempting into tiny pieces that take no more than a couple seconds each and between each piece get the airplane's attitude where you want it to be. Be careful to avoid any unnecessary movement of your head, especially if you're turning (on purpose or inadvertently). Tipping your head in a turn can easily "tumble your internal gyros" leaving your head spinning, something you definitely don't want to experience while trying to fly by instruments.

If you managed to end up above a layer with all the holes closing up (they can do that amazingly quickly under the right conditions) turning around while staying well above the clouds ought to be the first move. But if you're short on fuel or the scattered layer you were flying over looks solid after retreating for 30 minutes you're better off getting in touch with ATC and descending through the clouds gradually with the wings level instead of trying to drop through a small break with aggressive maneuvering. If you enter a cloud in a rapid descent with a steep bank angle your chances of remaining in control aren't good but keeping the wings level with rudder input in a shallow descent is fairly easy if the turbulence isn't too bad.

Of course you don't want to descend until you know there's good weather under the clouds and that's one of the things ATC can help with.
 
...........
I am assuming the best choice is to have a come to jesus moment and contact ATC and advice them of the situation and seek their guidance on a diversion.
If you can't maintain control to the plane while you're in the cloud, ATC guidance on diversion won't be an issue.
 
Watch the weather and always have an out is key. I flew as a VFR pilot for twenty years and never got even close to a VFR-into-IMC case while I was pilot in command (though I did have a scare when I was young and stupid in the right seat of someone else's plane before I got my ticket). That means no going on top of a deck you can't get down through. No scud running unless you're doing something like flying along over sections of the flat midwest where there are airports every five miles. If things start to look at all questionable STOP and wait it out (even if it means abandoning the plane for a while). Datalink weather helps a lot.

Even now that I have an instrument rating and I'm not so paranoid about being stuck on top, I am MORE paranoid about checking the weather than less. Flying into (potential) instrument conditions has a whole slew of things even with an instrument rating you need to know about as well.
 
In the 50 years I've flown the rule is always to do a 180 and return to VFR weather. An instrument ticket is dangerous unless you fly IFR a lot and are very proficient in its use. Don't believe me? Watch the low time IFR pilots who kill themselves regularly on the monthly faa accident reports. I've flown VFR , 4000 hours and really enjoyed it. IFR , I go southwest.
 
Nothing will kill you quicker than penetrating IMC if you aren't trained for it, and don't kid yourself into believing "how hard could it be?"

It happened to me once in my 30 years of flying, I was in a 172 looking down at a chart and when I looked up I was in cloud. It didn't take 20 seconds that the stall warning sounded (I was in a climb) but lucky for me and my passenger, we broke out of the cloud before things became critical.
 
As a new pilot with about 300 hours, living in Florida I can tell you that forecasts arent always right and in the afternoon we get some pop up thunderstorms and IMC ALOT - even when forecasted not.

I started as Sport but went over to Private and now studying for IFR.

I've entered the clouds inadvertantly. First thing I did was hit the HDG and ALT on the A/P then used the heading bug to do a 180. Seemed like it took forever, but eventually I got out of it. I quickly realized there wasnt many places to go - so I landed at the closest airport. Hour later I was home registering for IFR school.

It's no joke. Even though I had A/P it was a bit nerve wracking. You really need to avoid it!

Next is you take off VFR and your destination is VFR but en route you have an undercast... it happens...

Best advice is same as others. Learn weather - I suggest www.AVWXWorkshops.com - and avoid it. Also - consider going to private w/IFR :)
 
That video - DAMN....
Yea. about that 178 second number...


The following is a summary of some key points of the paper itself, entitled
"180-degree turn experiment" and in UI's Aeronautics Bulletin 11.

* The research was conducted at University of Illinois Institute of Aviation
in 1954, principally by Jesse Stonecipher, the CFI.
* It was a response to the challenge from AOPA to devise a technique for
non-instrument rated pilots who had flown inadvertently into IMC
* The tests were conducted on a Beech Bonanza C-35 in flight

* The 20 subjects for the experiment were chosen for being representative of
those pilots who had *no* simulated or actual instrument experience (not
"none since primary training", none at all)
* The Bonanza was chosen specifically *because* it would be difficult to
fly, as the most complex single that a non-IR pilot was likely to fly.
* None of the subjects had soloed a Bonanza. As far as I can tell, only 3
of the subjects had any complex experience at all, with most of them
recording time on Aeronca 7AC, Cessna 140 and Tri-Pacers.
* Most of the subjects had only about 20 hours dual time, presumably the PPL
syllabus in those days. 7 of them had less than 40 hours total.
* The aircraft was made to simulate basic VFR instruments, plus a turn
indicator. The AI, DG and rate of climb indicators were covered for the
entire experiment.
* The first period of the experiment was the famed '178 seconds' test, aimed
at assessing the students' baseline instrument aptitude. The time was
measured between the googles being placed over the students' eyes and an
'incipient dangerous flight condition'. For most cases this was deemed to
be an airspeed of 185 mph or an incipient stall.
* 19 of the 20 went into a 'graveyard spiral'. One pulled the aircraft
into a whip-stall.
* Times ranged from 20 seconds to 480 seconds. The average was indeed 178
seconds
* There then followed 4 periods of instruction in the 180 degree turn
technique (see below) that was the actual subject of the study
* By the end of this training, the subjects had between 1.5 and 3 hours
(mean 2 hours) simulated IF, practising the technique.
* The subjects were again tested by simulating instrument conditions, and
asked to transition from cruise to slow flight, make a 180 degree turn, and
establish a controlled descent. Each subject was tested 3 times.
* Of the 60 trials, 59 were successfully completed. The unsuccessful one
involved the failure to set power to maintain altitude and continued the
descent in a way that violated the success definition. It was considered
that control was not lost, and that if the aircraft had not become visual
below cloud, the impact would have been survivable.
The technique:
Throughout, center the turn needle using the rudder.
1) Hands off the control column
2) Lower the landing gear
3) Reduce power
4) Set trim to a predetermined position for slow flight (95 mph)
5) Adjust prop and power for approx level flight at 95 mph
6) Note the compass heading
7) Turn using the rudder
8) Roll out with appropriate lead or lag
9) Center the turn needle
10) Reduce power for a controlled descent
It was noticed that step 1 was both the most important and the most
difficult psychologically!
The usual deduction from the 178 Seconds article is the rather negative one
that pilots without instrument training are in big trouble if they enter
IMC. I think the message that Stonecipher was trying to convey (and the
result speak for itself!) is much more positive, that a little instument
training can go a long way, even if faced with a partial panel and a complex
aircraft.
 
In the 50 years I've flown the rule is always to do a 180 and return to VFR weather. An instrument ticket is dangerous unless you fly IFR a lot and are very proficient in its use. Don't believe me? Watch the low time IFR pilots who kill themselves regularly on the monthly faa accident reports. I've flown VFR , 4000 hours and really enjoyed it. IFR , I go southwest.
It isn't all that difficult to remain proficient at IFR flying but it does take some extra time and money unless you're flying a lot. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that an instrument rating makes a pilot more dangerous. An IR is a tool that can be applied in a number of ways, some of them quite safe and some not so much.

The worst case IMO is the pilot who never files after passing his checkride but thinks that the words "Instrument Airplane" on a plastic card means he's somehow reduced the risks of scud running and/or pushing on into deteriorating weather. Second worst is the pilot who does maintain his instrument flying skills but thinks that those same words makes him immune to weather.

In any case suspect that either of those two pilots would be just as dangerous without their IR because the problem is their attitude, not their training.
 
Funny thing about all that, Lance: I am pretty certain that my mechanical IFR skills were as good as they ever were right after passing my IR checkride - at least, my confidence in my skills was better (and so much of this is a head game, isn't it?).

Nonetheless, I think I am safer now, because of my experience and the judgment that comes with it; honestly, i am less likely to launch on a flight with a lot of hard IMC now than I used to be - but I seem to do OK under the hood, still (and I had an IPC last Tuesday, good fun).

The instruments and equipment are important, but the most critical "instrument" is the gelatinous one between the ears.
 
Funny thing about all that, Lance: I am pretty certain that my mechanical IFR skills were as good as they ever were right after passing my IR checkride - at least, my confidence in my skills was better (and so much of this is a head game, isn't it?).

Nonetheless, I think I am safer now, because of my experience and the judgment that comes with it; honestly, i am less likely to launch on a flight with a lot of hard IMC now than I used to be - but I seem to do OK under the hood, still (and I had an IPC last Tuesday, good fun).

The instruments and equipment are important, but the most critical "instrument" is the gelatinous one between the ears.

I'm still in the fascination stage and look for IMC (but not buildups). When planning a trip I'll look where the cloud layers are and file for that altitude. Even with all of my training I was still apprehensive of entering IMC by myself for the first few flights. Now I'm comfortable with it and know I can handle it. I suppose one day I will try to avoid it too.
 
Yea. about that 178 second number...
* The subjects were again tested by simulating instrument conditions, and
asked to transition from cruise to slow flight, make a 180 degree turn, and
establish a controlled descent. Each subject was tested 3 times.
The technique:
Throughout, center the turn needle using the rudder.
Seems to me it would be difficult to make a 180° turn with the turn needle centered.:D
...
The usual deduction from the 178 Seconds article is the rather negative one
that pilots without instrument training are in big trouble if they enter
IMC. I think the message that Stonecipher was trying to convey (and the
result speak for itself!) is much more positive, that a little instument
training can go a long way, even if faced with a partial panel and a complex
aircraft.
Not sure what Stonecipher was trying to convey but a very important relevant factor is the perishable nature of instrument flying skills along with the fact that they are most perishable when just learned. As a result, I would say that while "a little instrument training can go a long way" towards improving ones ability to survive an inadvertent IMC encounter it won't do so for very long.
 
Seems to me it would be difficult to make a 180° turn with the turn needle centered.:D
[snip]

It's a turn coordinator so centered is coordinated flight.

John
 
Centered ball is coordinated flight; centered needle is is nonturning flight. And if it's a turn coordinator, there is no needle at all.


Is a centered needle nonturning? Or nonbanking? I read those instructions as suggesting a level turn solely by use of rudders.
 
Is a centered needle nonturning? Or nonbanking? I read those instructions as suggesting a level turn solely by use of rudders.
Nonturning. You can get a centered needle in banked flight by holding just enough opposite rudder to prevent yaw. Of course, the ball will be deflected towards the low wing in this slipped condition. However, if you hold the wings level while holding rudder to bring the nose around, the needle will deflect in the direction of turn while the ball goes the other way in this skidded condition.

For more on the subject of turn coordinators and turn&bank indicators and how they work, see the Instrument Flying Handbook.

And we don't teach a skidded turn as the way to handle the situation under discussion. The pilot in such a situation has enough problems without the conflicting sensations and confusing instrument indications such a maneuver would create.
 
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In the 50 years I've flown the rule is always to do a 180 and return to VFR weather. An instrument ticket is dangerous unless you fly IFR a lot and are very proficient in its use. Don't believe me? Watch the low time IFR pilots who kill themselves regularly on the monthly faa accident reports. I've flown VFR , 4000 hours and really enjoyed it. IFR , I go southwest.

You are conveniently ignoring all the VFR pilots who kill themselves by flying into IMC. The instrument ticket means you passed a test.

When people say something like "according to the stats, xyz makes you more dangerous" that is a misapplication of mathematics. Statistics are plural and include many pilots doing many different things. "You" is singular and what "you" do is up to you. People get so caught up in accident statistics that they think we're slaves to them. We are not. Each pilot makes his/her own choices. And there is nothing about the instrument rating that forces a pilot to be more dangerous. It depends on a pilot's decisions. And that is why studying accidents is important.

So if you start avoiding the many highly avoidable pitfalls that, even if ridiculously avoidable, wind up in the stats then those stats no longer dictate "your" outcome as a pilot.

Basically, don't be like those guys who crashed.

If you think that isn't right, then statistically, based on your hours, tickets, ratings and type flown, you should be able to calculate how many hours you will fly before "you" crash and stop flying just shy of that. That is silly, right? We are pilots, not statistics.
 
I remembered my ultra light instructor (I was not a PPL at this time :eek:) telling me the 4 "C"s "Communicate, Confess, Comply, Conserve"...If you do get caught IFR don't panic, remember the 4 "C".

I learned them as "Climb, Communicate, Confess and Comply".

Either list will work, but climbing first could save one from an unfortunate encounter with obstructions or terrain, and will have the side benefit of aiding radio reception.
 
As a sport pilot you are REQUIRED to get on the ground if you cannot turn around and get back into VFR minimums. Simply stated, you are not allowed to play with special VMC or IMC at all.

But are Sport pilots actually forbidden from obtaining a special VFR? I know they need atleast 3 SM vis and can't operate on top, but there is nothing I can find in the regs that states a required distance below the clouds or forbids special VFR, so presumably one could get it if the ceiling was below basic VFR, but the vis was not a factor. Though, I'm not saying what is legal is always smart
 
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