VFR cruising altitudes and FF

SoCal RV Flyer

SoCal RV Flyer

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I don't normally head across the L.A. basin, what with all those jets crisscrossing and descending in that space, but I'm thinking about going to Camarillo from Cable next week with help from Flight Following.

Soooooo, when you're on FF, do the controllers care about the proper VFR cruising altitudes, or can you just pick an altitude that they're OK with?

I'm going over Burbank, so without FF I'd go north of LAX Class B, at 6500' heading west, and 5500' on the return trip to easily clear Burbank's airspace. Would y'all stick to these altitudes with FF? One of my friends from Cable made this trip recently, and he asked for and received a 5000' altitude.

Thanks in advance for replies. :)
 
Yes, the hemispherical rules still apply while on FF. You will hear all the time from ATC "Altitude at your discretion" for VFR pilots...that is NOT permission to fly at ANY altitude you want or ask for, that is permission to use your discretion to fly an appropriate altitude that works for you yet still follows the hemispherical guidelines based on IFR or VFR and direction of flight.

You are not under ATC control so they can no more "give" you permission to fly at 5000' then you would get if you were not on FF and choose to do so on your own. You just have an extra set of eyes to make sure you are not gonna crash into someone.

You may be given an altitude restriction by ATC that is counter to those rules, but that is different than a pilot selected cruising altitude.

I fly through LA all the time...stick with the East/West +500' VFR rules. There is a LOT of IFR traffic at the even thousands in So Cal. Zero reason to be at anything other than those altitudes.
 
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Soooooo, when you're on FF, do the controllers care about the proper VFR cruising altitudes, or can you just pick an altitude that they're OK with?
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No, you still need to fly the proper VFR altitude for the heading you are flying.
 
Shawn said:
...You may be given an altitude restriction by ATC that is counter to those rules, but that is different than a pilot selected cruising altitude.
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relative newbie here. so that means ATC may tell me to stay at or below X-altitude and I would still choose the appropriate E-W altitude. if ATC says 'stay at or below 5000' and I'm heading easterly my only option at that point would be 3500?
 
rk911 said:
relative newbie here. so that means ATC may tell me to stay at or below X-altitude and I would still choose the appropriate E-W altitude. if ATC says 'stay at or below 5000' and I'm heading easterly my only option at that point would be 3500?
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Not necessarily. If I wanted to cruise at 5500' and ATC gave me a "remain at or below 5000"...you can still go up and cruise at 5000 until they lift the restriction to go to 5500. It will be a temporary restriction but is not necessarily you cruising altitude. They have given you an altitude and know exactly where you are in relation to other traffic.

A better example might be a Bravo shelf at 5000' which you need to stay under...in which case you would then indeed flight plan at 3500' since that is you only option since 5500' is not available without a Bravo Clearance.
 
Ask....When using FF and going thru class B airspace I ask. I offer an altitude but will do what it takes to make it easy for the airspace. I do follow the cardinal rules....with even thousands plus 500 west and odd thousands plus 500 east.

Around my area, Baltimore/DC, I usually request 7,500 and 6,500 in the B. That's welcomed and I usually get good ATC service being above the arriving and departing traffic.
 
I dunno what to do on FF inside the Bravo, ATL has cleared me into the Bravo exactly ONE TIME! They told me to resume own navigation, asked my course and said it was alright. I asked for and received clearance into the Bravo a whole ~5 nm before I could turn and stay outside. Don't know why Atlanta doesn't like to play nice with their airspace, doesn't seem to matter how high or low I go, "remain clear of the Bravo" is the order of the day.
 
If altitude is your discretion inside Class B, it should be a VFR altitude. However, I always get assigned an altitude, even if Approach has to ask me which one I want.
 
B and C varying assigned altitudes by ATC are common place within that airspace. In Class E however for a cruising altitude you will not hear "approval" nor a clearance to fly another altitude from ATC.

"Approach, Skylane 12345 would like to cruise at 5000"

"Sklane 12345, altitude at your discretion" is most likely what you will hear in response but it IS NOT permission from ATC to fly at 5000'. It is permission to use pilots discretion and to choose 5000' is very poor discretion. Be willing to bet that is what the OP's buddy heard when he asked for 5000'.
 
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Fly normal altitudes, but I've never had a issue with ATC with odd altitudes, just tell them what's up, "Cessna 123 going down to 5200 for weather/traffic/whatever"
 
When VFR, if able, always choose the proper VFR altitude, but sometimes you may not have a choice due to cloud clearance or SUA. If that forces you to not be at the recommended X+500' altitude and you are FF, just explain and coordinate with them (one of the many advantages of FF). Bear in mind that opposite direction VFR (perhaps non-squawking) may still end up running into you, so try not to linger at that "illegal" altitude more than absolutely needed, regardless of any ATC blessings.
 
I just flew across that route two weeks ago. Same thing, went across Burbank and Whiteman at 5,500 heading towards Cable. Once clear of their airspace, I told the controller I was getting ready to descend to 3,500 and he gave me the "thanks, descend at your discretion" even though it technically wasn't required. The controllers like you to let them know you are getting ready to climb or descend, especially in the busy airspace in your area. The entire flight from Reno down there was quiet until I got over Whiteman and wow did traffic pick-up.

Just remember that even though you're on FF, you can't crash through protected airspace without authorization... ;)

Have fun!

Brian
 
Sometimes ATC will give you altitude at your discretion. In busier airspace, this is less likely.
 
flight2000 said:
I told the controller I was getting ready to descend to 3,500 and he gave me the "thanks, descend at your discretion" even though it technically wasn't required.
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Not required as you said, but Per the AIM it states Pilots "should" advise ATC of altitude changes while receievng FF so it is always a good idea as you did.
 
Good to know, guys...I appreciate the insight and info. I figured that I should go with the standard VFR cruising 'tudes, but my friend's experience made me question that.
 
FF is an advisory service there to give you information and help keep everyone(especially you) sharing that airspace safe. Outside of D, C, or B airspace you shouldn't do anything differently than you would if you were flying without it, just advise them of any changes in course/altitude so they can keep everyone(especially you) well informed of any traffic or other hazards.

When you enter D, C, or B airspace then that changes. Now they're ATC and they may give you orders that you need to follow... it just so happens that if you're already under FF the transition is seamless.

I would advise a pilot flying in my part of the country to just ask the controller if they're unsure of anything but I can imagine if you're talking to LA center they may not have time for that and might be a bit grumpy. Out here in the boonies there's often very little activity on the radio- I think the controllers get bored. Sometimes they seem to like to chat with people.
 
Shawn said:
You may be given an altitude restriction by ATC that is counter to those rules, but that is different than a pilot selected cruising altitude.
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This could've been the situation with my friend. I originally wrote that he asked for the altitude, but thinking back on it, the altitude could've been assigned.
 
Shawn said:
Not necessarily. If I wanted to cruise at 5500' and ATC gave me a "remain at or below 5000"...you can still go up and cruise at 5000 until they lift the restriction to go to 5500. It will be a temporary restriction but is not necessarily you cruising altitude. They have given you an altitude and know exactly where you are in relation to other traffic.

A better example might be a Bravo shelf at 5000' which you need to stay under...in which case you would then indeed flight plan at 3500' since that is you only option since 5500' is not available without a Bravo Clearance.
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but wouldn't flying EB at 5000 be a "violation" of the E-W odd/even altitude hemispheric rule? if I'm cleared thru the Bravo would I be assigned a specific altitude? do the E-W odd/even altitude rules get thrown out the window while in the Bravo??
 
Where ATC provides separation for VFR aircraft (TRSA, C, B), ATC can assign altitudes contrary to the hemispheric rule. When it's no longer needed for sep, or leaving the airspace, they're required to tell you "resume appropriate VFR altitudes."
 
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91.159 (bolded mine):

"Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC."


My take is if ATC says "Altitude at pilot's discretion", that authorizes deviation from the hemispheric rule.

Lacking a ruling to the contrary, I'll stick to that interpretation.

 
FastEddieB said:
91.159 (bolded mine):

"Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC."


My take is if ATC says "Altitude at pilot's discretion", that authorizes deviation from the hemispheric rule.

Lacking a ruling to the contrary, I'll stick to that interpretation.
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Except "altitude at pilot's discretion" is the cancellation of an altitude restriction.

I hope you don't think "resume own navigation" means you can go anywhere you want, including Class B. The logic is the same. Under IFR, it also does not authorize deviation from your clearance, nor is it considered an amended clearance.

I haven't heard of local enforcement of the hemispheric rule, but it's quite dangerous aside from that. Head on aircraft close REALLY FAST. If I were you, I'd be quite nervous wrong way flying outside the context of positive separation (Class B). Especially if you're flying direct to an airport; you're much more likely to encounter traffic flying directly away from it.
 
Op, why do you care if you are in Burbank's airspace? You are on flight following, cruise right through if they want to move you they will.
I would takeoff, immediately call brackett tower and get a transition through the north part of class D for your climb out. Once clear of D contact socal and get FF to Camarillo at 4500.

Way back I would go 3500 or 5500 depending on what you are comfortable with. Approach occasionally coordinates arrivals to nearby airports through local class D or will hand you off to brackett tower.

No reason to deviate from west-east altitude rules.
 
FastEddieB said:
My take is if ATC says "Altitude at pilot's discretion", that authorizes deviation from the hemispheric rule.

Lacking a ruling to the contrary, I'll stick to that interpretation.
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"Pilots discretion" is just that...to use your discretion in selecting an altitude. You have to use your discretion as to which altitude you maintain every time you fly if you are talking to ATC or not. Yeah, there are plenty of operational reasons to deviate from the hemispherical rules via ATC altitude restrictions or otherwise but if you choose to cruise at another altitude in Echo you are in violation of 91.159 regardless of who you are talking to.

Not to say that you can't fly at any altitude you want and they are gonna bust you for it...but the rules are in place for a reason...unless you just wanna be "that guy" to whom the rules don't apply. ATC providing radar services does not change those rules.

If you think that "Altitude at pilot's discretion" is an explicit authorization...you may wanna rethink that logic.



 
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Velocity173 said:
Where ATC provides separation for VFR aircraft (TRSA, C, B), ATC can assign altitudes contrary to the hemispheric rule. When it's no longer needed for sep, or leaving the airspace, they're required to tell you "resume appropriate VFR altitudes."
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I got it. thanks.
 
Yeah the way I see it is I follow the hemispheric rules for VFR altitudes at all times unless ATC has given me specific altitude assignment otherwise. Regardless of whether it's acceptable to disregard while on FF I personally think it would be foolish considering those "rules" should provide an extra measure of safety to all VFR cross country traffic. I ask... Why not?
 
arkvet said:
Yeah the way I see it is I follow the hemispheric rules for VFR altitudes at all times unless ATC has given me specific altitude assignment otherwise. Regardless of whether it's acceptable to disregard while on FF I personally think it would be foolish considering those "rules" should provide an extra measure of safety to all VFR cross country traffic. I ask... Why not?
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I do the same....cept I usually am either 150 feet high or low of the altitude....just because I'm a crappy pilot and want to do something a little different than everyone else. :D
 
MAKG1 said:
Except "altitude at pilot's discretion" is the cancellation of an altitude restriction.

I hope you don't think "resume own navigation" means you can go anywhere you want, including Class B. The logic is the same. Under IFR, it also does not authorize deviation from your clearance, nor is it considered an amended clearance.

I haven't heard of local enforcement of the hemispheric rule, but it's quite dangerous aside from that. Head on aircraft close REALLY FAST. If I were you, I'd be quite nervous wrong way flying outside the context of positive separation (Class B). Especially if you're flying direct to an airport; you're much more likely to encounter traffic flying directly away from it.
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You've convinced me.

If I'm on flight following above 3,000' AGL, I invariably use the correct VFR altitude, unless assigned one by ATC.

I was thinking more of lower flight, such as approaching a Class C airport. Then, usually being below 3,000' AGL, it no longer applies.

Carry on.
 
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I just gradually stopped using FF when VFR; once accepted, ATC more or less expects you'll behave as if "in the system", including vectors and altitudes on occasion - even outside B, etc. Understandable, but not always aligned with what I want to do.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Op, why do you care if you are in Burbank's airspace? You are on flight following, cruise right through if they want to move you they will.
I would takeoff, immediately call brackett tower and get a transition through the north part of class D for your climb out. Once clear of D contact socal and get FF to Camarillo at 4500.

Way back I would go 3500 or 5500 depending on what you are comfortable with. Approach occasionally coordinates arrivals to nearby airports through local class D or will hand you off to brackett tower.

No reason to deviate from west-east altitude rules.
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I don't mind being up a little higher, as it gets me above the perpetual L.A. smog/haze layer. I'm easily at 2800' leaving the pattern of Cable (field elevation is 1450' or so), so clearing Brackett airspace is a non-issue.

We can't get too comfy with IFR or VFR altitudes, as lots of planes in the basin are climbing or descending through them. FF is an additional comfort factor, but it doesn't reduce the intensity of my scan.
 
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Shawn said:
Yeah...that is usually to keep ya from smacking into another plane...kinda the whole point of FF.
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No, actually, even discounting the very, very remote odds of a mid-air in cruise; it isn't necessarily to keep you from smacking, so much as it is to meet their seperation minimums, which isn't exactly the same thing. Outside terminal areas, big sky is probably as effective for seperation as FF. Close to an airport, yep, much more risk, of course.

I was following a coast line, with FF, and the controller got antsy about my heading changes, told me "I have to know where you're going". I didn't know myself, so I cancelled. Similiar things came up a few more times, and a CFI clued me in about accepting FF obligating you to follow ATC instructions - at that point, I might as well be IFR (which I usually am) - but just out sightseeing ir looking around, I just don't want the noise.
 
Just so all y'all know....in my area two out of the last three mid-airs were under the care and feeding of ATC. So, FF is no guarantee, but just an additional layer of help. Don't stop looking folks....
 
Sundancer said:
No, actually, even discounting the very, very remote odds of a mid-air in cruise; it isn't necessarily to keep you from smacking, so much as it is to meet their seperation minimums, which isn't exactly the same thing. Outside terminal areas, big sky is probably as effective for seperation as FF. Close to an airport, yep, much more risk, of course.

I was following a coast line, with FF, and the controller got antsy about my heading changes, told me "I have to know where you're going". I didn't know myself, so I cancelled. Similiar things came up a few more times, and a CFI clued me in about accepting FF obligating you to follow ATC instructions - at that point, I might as well be IFR (which I usually am) - but just out sightseeing ir looking around, I just don't want the noise.
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Must matter where you are. I get FF and tell them that I am sight seeing and don't know exactly where I am going. Never been a problem, but I am not in super busy airspace.
 
That's cool, and I don't have a problem with the contoller doing his job; sometimes it's just nice to kill the radio, drop down low, and have fun.
 
Sundancer said:
No, actually, even discounting the very, very remote odds of a mid-air in cruise; it isn't necessarily to keep you from smacking, so much as it is to meet their seperation minimums, which isn't exactly the same thing. Outside terminal areas, big sky is probably as effective for seperation as FF. Close to an airport, yep, much more risk, of course.

I was following a coast line, with FF, and the controller got antsy about my heading changes, told me "I have to know where you're going". I didn't know myself, so I cancelled. Similiar things came up a few more times, and a CFI clued me in about accepting FF obligating you to follow ATC instructions - at that point, I might as well be IFR (which I usually am) - but just out sightseeing ir looking around, I just don't want the noise.
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All you have to do is tell ATC "I'm going north for a bit," or if they want a destination, make one up, and then change it whenever you want. It's not hard at all. You can even tell them you're following the coastline.

There are no separation minimums under VFR. There is for IFR, but forcing a deviation for someone else 'cause you don't care is kinda rude.

You speak as though you have to choose between "big sky" and flight following. Umm, the sky is just as big when you use the radio. But it is smaller when you follow a path someone else might also choose, like a coastline or an airway.
 
I had departure control in Roswell, NM tell me I was at the wrong cruising altitude once while on flight following. I was not 3000' agl but was going to need to climb later anyway so I just climbed to keep them happy. It was in my earlier flying days and today I would likely just tell them I'm legal for my height above ground.

That's just to say they cared what altitude I was at but that may have been because I was the only guy on their scope the whole day and they didn't have anything else to do
 
Shawn said:
Yes, the hemispherical rules still apply while on FF. You will hear all the time from ATC "Altitude at your discretion" for VFR pilots...that is NOT permission to fly at ANY altitude you want or ask for, that is permission to use your discretion to fly an appropriate altitude that works for you yet still follows the hemispherical guidelines based on IFR or VFR and direction of flight.

You are not under ATC control so they can no more "give" you permission to fly at 5000' then you would get if you were not on FF and choose to do so on your own. You just have an extra set of eyes to make sure you are not gonna crash into someone.

You may be given an altitude restriction by ATC that is counter to those rules, but that is different than a pilot selected cruising altitude.

I fly through LA all the time...stick with the East/West +500' VFR rules. There is a LOT of IFR traffic at the even thousands in So Cal. Zero reason to be at anything other than those altitudes.
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ATC can and does assign altitudes to VFR aircraft in airspace where ATC has responsibility for separation of VFR aircraft. That's Class B airspace, Class C airspace including the Outer Area, and in TRSAs.
 
MickYoumans said:
No, you still need to fly the proper VFR altitude for the heading you are flying.
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It's the magnetic course you're flying, not the heading. If your desired course is 010 and a heading of 350 is required to maintain that course your altitude must comply with the eastern hemisphere.
 
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