Using timers on instrument check ride

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by jsureke, Mar 7, 2021.

  1. jsureke

    jsureke Filing Flight Plan

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    Howdy,
    I would love to hear from a DPE on this, but all comments are appreciated.
    I'm in the final stages of my instrument training, and I just switched to a new instructor who told me I can't use my own timer for my check ride. He said I have to use the tiny clock on the instrument panel, but I can't find anything in the PTS or FARs that supports that.
    Thanks for your help!
     
  2. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    I used a kitchen timer velcroed to the panel for my checkride. Anybody with a brain understands a digital timer is going to be more accurate than a tiny sweep clock, and that timing approaches is a pretty imprecise art to begin with.
     
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  3. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    Well bless his heart.
     
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  4. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    Call or email the DPE and find out. And if he says no, select a new DPE that doesn’t make up his own rules.
     
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  5. Country Flier

    Country Flier Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I used a kitchen timer. And if he has a problem with one, tell him you'll use the dash clock, with the kitchen timer as backup. Then just use the timer. I never understand some of these things...like the guys who ALWAYS hide the iPads. I get hiding it sometimes to prove you can go without if it fails, but all the time? C'mon, my iPad has proven over time to be (substantially) the most reliable instrument in my plane. EVERY SINGLE INSTRUMENT in my aircraft, over my 25+ years of flying, has quit on me, some more than once (I'm on my 4th AI in 4 years btw), but my iPad has never failed. Can it fail? Sure...but has it? Nope! Granted, the iPad has only been flying with me for about 10 years, but still...
     
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  6. crash7

    crash7 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    91.205 d(6) does require an INSTALLED somesortofclockthatcanshowseconds. If your airplane doesn’t have one, that’ll be an issue.

    There is no reg, however, that says you have to USE that one. Velcro’d kitchen timer or whatever is fine.

    Kinda like filing an alternate. If you HAVE to file one, no one says you HAVE to end up there if you can’t get into destination.


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  7. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    I think your new CFI is talking out his ——! In addition to doing my training over 20 years ago, the many students I signed off have used a digital timer on the yoke or knee board.
     
  8. N1120A

    N1120A Pattern Altitude

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    You can use the clock on the transponder as well..
     
  9. Brad Z

    Brad Z Final Approach

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    It wouldn't be the first time a CFI or DPE decided to personally codify their own bizarre interpretation of a regulation.
     
  10. Iceman21

    Iceman21 Pre-Flight

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    Not every transponder has a timer feature.

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  11. Pugs

    Pugs Line Up and Wait

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    Good enough for Apollo, good enough for my DPE - He had no issue with it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Lndwarrior

    Lndwarrior Line Up and Wait

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    Unless the local DPE has made an issue of this, the instructors argument is just plain wrong.
     
  13. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    But as a “tachymetre”, it’s mist likely metric.
     
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  14. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    Yeah, those metric minutes and metric seconds sure are tricky!
     
  15. Trogdor

    Trogdor Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I use the timer under Garmin Pilot FWIW.
     
  16. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Your CFI doesn’t know what he is talking about. There is no such requirement.
     
  17. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    It’s getting the correct current exchange rate that’ll throw ya! ;)
     
  18. 1SGBrokePilot

    1SGBrokePilot Filing Flight Plan

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    Just took my IFR checkride in November. I dont keep the fuse for my clock installed due to it constantly pulling a tiny bit on the plane battery. When walking to the plane I asked the DPE if he cared if I used the timer velcroed to the panel or if he wanted me to put the fuse in for the clock. Before he could respond I told him that if the kitchen timer faulted then I had 3 other ways to cover down in flight without the cessna clock. He as fine with that.
     
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  19. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I would have said put the fuse in for the flight, and use whatever timer you want.
     
  20. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    As long as the aircraft has an "operable" installed "clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation" the applicant is free to use whichever accurate device they wish for timing purposes.

    Sometimes the fact that the equipment described above must be installed vs. temporarily "placed" somewhere in the aircraft (i.e. a velcro'd kitchen timer, a watch, etc.) is a source of confusion. What you must do vs. what you must have with regards to operable installed equipment are two separate issues.
     
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  21. BrianNC

    BrianNC En-Route

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    Then I would not suggest using a transponder without a timer.
     
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  22. Iceman21

    Iceman21 Pre-Flight

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    Sometimes rentals don't have what you want, only what you need! Lol

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  23. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

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    If you use a kitchen timer, remove the magnets before you velcro it to the dash. Magnets + compasses= no Bueno.
     
  24. Pugs

    Pugs Line Up and Wait

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    Where's the fun in that? Turn your VOR approach into a VOR-A! :D
     
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  25. Deelee

    Deelee Cleared for Takeoff

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    I have the vintage analog clock with the hours, minutes and second sweep hand. Set it and wind it before every flight.... something satisfying about that little antique. Keeps time like a Swiss timepiece.

    For the IR checkride - used the $15 kitchen timer I bought from the fine folks at Amazon.com.
     
  26. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    The installed clock WAS placarded OOS, right? :devil::fingerwag::yes::yes:

    Hey, because it is still POA. :stirpot: ;)
     
  27. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    In addition, the installed timer does not have to be a dedicated clock. It could be a readily accessible timer function on one of your avionics boxes. I have a handy timer function that can be activated with a single switch flip on my digital CDI for NAV2. Not that I will likely ever use it outside a checkride or IPC with a WAAS GPS working. The dedicated clock is actually more complicated to operate as a timer.
     
  28. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I always preferred a clock with a sweep second hand. That way when I forgot to start the time on a checkride (pretty much always), I could still make it work. When I’ve descended 700 feet, I’m about a minute into my time, and I just continue from there.
     
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  29. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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    Actually, it does have to be a "dedicated" clock, the definition of which is not quite as straightforward as it seems. The timer function on your transponder or GPS does not meet the requirements of 14 CFR 91.205. However, if you do have an operable installed clock, you could choose to use any other device in the airplane, installed or not, including the timer function on various "avionics boxes."
     
  30. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    It's been a while since I've used one but I think the GNS480 can be configured to display zulu time in such a manner as to satisfy the "permanent clock display" mentioned in the Nkugba letter, no? (I know that the GNS430 cannot)
     
  31. crash7

    crash7 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I’ll bite: Where does it say the clock has to be “dedicated”? (Follow up question: Define “dedicated”).


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  32. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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  33. crash7

    crash7 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Interesting. So if someone has this: https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/m803
    as their clock, then they’re not legal? Because I could push a button that replaces the ‘clock’ with something else?


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  34. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    That is a “dedicated” clock with additional functions, not a different appliance with a clock function.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2021
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  35. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    But the lower half of the Davtron M803 display is always displaying hours, minutes and seconds.
     
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  36. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Cleared for Takeoff

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  37. crash7

    crash7 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    So it does. My bad. Thought I found a ‘gotcha’...


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  38. dtuuri

    dtuuri En-Route

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    There's you, here's me:

    "Keep the fuse in your pocket. I'll simulate the installed clock is working while on the ground, then after takeoff you can cope with a simulated clock failure for the remainder of the test."
     
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  39. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    If the applicant approached it in a fashion that indicated he actually knew what the requirements were, I might see your point.
     
  40. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    Well, technically, they can ask you to demonstrate the use of any installed equipment....