Usable weight consistantly not followed?

I'm sure a lot of them that are scattered in the forests and on hillsides were as well.

90% of the accidents that I've heard about in Alaska were stupid pilot tricks, strangely enough not related to gross weight.

Like the guy in the caravan doing a barrel roll over his girlfriend in a 207, or the guy who chased wolves into a box canyon, or the guy who tried to get into at marys when it was 0/0 one too many times....
 
FAA standard adult is 170lb.
Not any more. That was changed a few years ago as a result of an air carrier accident and studies that followed. For the details on current values, see Table 2-1 on page 17 of AC 120-27E. But for comparison, the old standard 170 lb for an adult passenger is now 190 summer and 195 winter.
 
You can fly the airplane significantly overweight and not suffer any ill consequences if you are operating at sea-level, fly conservatively, and stay out of turbulence. The overweight will take its toll at high density altitudes and situations where you are stressing the airframe. You are cutting down your margin of safety but that margin is quite large at the parameters I mention in the beginning.
That may be true in the short term, but as I described above, it can lead to disaster in the long term. If you need to carry more than your plane can carry legally, get a bigger plane.
 
It's bad to exceed specs, weight especially at sea level. It's a disaster to do it at 5,000 feet on a 70 degree day where density altitude reads 7000 feet.
 
It's bad to exceed specs, weight especially at sea level. It's a disaster to do it at 5,000 feet on a 70 degree day where density altitude reads 7000 feet.

'Cause everything is heavier at sea level?
 
I've been avoiding posting in this thread, because it was started by a student. But - I will venture in, at my peril.

I have flown over-gross in the past. I survived. My reasons are perfectly sane to me, and only to me. To anyone else, your airplane will instantly disintegrate and you will all die a horrible death.

My case only: The plane has an increase of 40HP over the factory offering, an increase of approx 22%. My plane is rated to utility category up to gross weight. My plane is eligible for a 200Lb increase in gross weight by addition of tip tanks(I don't have them). In place of tip tanks, I have the later model wing tips which provide an additional wing area to distribute load. My plane was offered as a militarized version with an additional 250Lb weight increase with no change to the airframe except a canopy, tail, and seating accommodation.

The plane is older than dirt. It shows no fatigue, however, similar airplanes of similar vintage have suffered catastrophic wing separation after a high number of high G maneuvers which I don't do, and hasn't occurred in my plane.

YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
 
I
My case only: The plane has an increase of 40HP over the factory offering, an increase of approx 22%. My plane is rated to utility category up to gross weight. My plane is eligible for a 200Lb increase in gross weight by addition of tip tanks(I don't have them). In place of tip tanks, I have the later model wing tips which provide an additional wing area to distribute load. My plane was offered as a militarized version with an additional 250Lb weight increase with no change to the airframe except a canopy, tail, and seating accommodation.

Keep in mind, Tip Tanks distribute load out along the wing, providing bending relief--the weight in the tanks does not need to be transferred the full length of the spar to the wing tip. Many tip tank STCs only allow a gross weight increase when the tanks are full. Bigger wing tips, on the other hand, put more lifting surface further outboard, which increases stress on the spar and wing box rather than decreasing it like tip tanks.

The other factors you pointed out are certainly points to consider, but its important to know that tip tanks play an important structural role in increasing weight in many situations.
 
I am simply looking at this as an engineer; I doubt there is any significant downside other than degraded performance to flying an airplane significantly overweight provided CG is kept well away from fore and aft limits. At sea level, with sufficient runway, and in smooth air, that degraded performance need not render the aircraft unduly unsafe. That said, I do not fly overweight and do not recommend anyone else do it either.
 
Your safety is an accumulation of all the decisions you make. Follow the book, and there's a good margin of error. Don't follow it, and you might be fine...or not.

The limitations on a plane are meant to allow some margin in a wide variety of circumstances that can and do happen.

Is being slightly over gross going to kill you? Probably not unless other factors are present...high temperatures, unexpected wind shear, severe turbulence, etc.

The real question is, "Is it OK not to follow rules that are designed to reduce the risk of GA, keeping in mind that by all statistical accounts, GA is VERY dangerous?"

For me, I go the other way...I add margin to limits. I recently decided not to take off at gross in a Piper Saratoga from Catalina Island, because this airport is very unforgiving.

Is your life worth risking unnecessarily for this sport? I can't answer that for you. For me, the answer is simple. Absolutely not. I love my life. My family loves me. It's downright foolish to push the rules in a sport that's already dangerous. Maybe, just maybe I can reduce the risk to a more reasonable level by following or exceeding ALL the rules.

To each his or her own!
 
I know a lot of people like to use the 150/152 as a trainer, ... Myself and my instructor in it with no fuel would be over-weight.
Over the years I've owned a couple of aerobatic Citabria 7ECAs. When shopping for a used one, I gave a lot of consideration to the previous owner's habits and body weight. Did the owner use the plane for aerobatics? Was the owner overweight? Did the owner do aerobatics with full fuel and a passenger? I also only sought the 115 HP versions because the empty weight was less but the gross weight was the same as the 150 HP version. A plane's maximum wing bending weight isn't advertised unless it's less than the maximum gross weight, so I just assume they're the same--the limit established by the wing-bending strength. I don't want to do loops in a plane with wood spars that's been habitually over-stressed by a fat pilot and passenger without regard for maximum weight limits. :no:

dtuuri
 
I know this guy who was going to OSH that took off about sixty lbs. over gross in his 180.

He made it.

Damn fool. :nonod::lol:
 
Keep in mind, Tip Tanks distribute load out along the wing, providing bending relief--the weight in the tanks does not need to be transferred the full length of the spar to the wing tip. Many tip tank STCs only allow a gross weight increase when the tanks are full. Bigger wing tips, on the other hand, put more lifting surface further outboard, which increases stress on the spar and wing box rather than decreasing it like tip tanks.

The other factors you pointed out are certainly points to consider, but its important to know that tip tanks play an important structural role in increasing weight in many situations.

I know. Didn't want to get into the minutia of it.

YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
 
It's bad to exceed specs, weight especially at sea level. It's a disaster to do it at 5,000 feet on a 70 degree day where density altitude reads 7000 feet.

Yesterday I had 8600' density altitude on takeoff....

No disaster noticed.
 
Higher wing loading makes it less maneuverable? More BS to call out.

I agree. I haven't heard of this.
I have to admit I didn't understand what Murphy was trying to say either, but I think I've got it now.

An airplane mushing along at stall speed hasn't got enough lift capability to maneuver (turn) the plane--it'll stall if you try. At Va, it'll have the most potential maneuvering ability possible without over-stressing the wings. A heavy airplane (higher wing loading), then, is closer to the first condition and a lighter wing loaded plane closer to the second because of the more similar angles of attack. A heavily wing-loaded plane just doesn't have the surplus lifting capacity of a lightly loaded wing.

Am I right, Murph?

dtuuri
 
90% of the accidents that I've heard about in Alaska were stupid pilot tricks, strangely enough not related to gross weight.

Like the guy in the caravan doing a barrel roll over his girlfriend in a 207, or the guy who chased wolves into a box canyon, or the guy who tried to get into at marys when it was 0/0 one too many times....

Pretty sure at least one of the hillside planes in Whittier was an over gross deal from what I got out of the story.
 
I've been avoiding posting in this thread, because it was started by a student. But - I will venture in, at my peril.

I have flown over-gross in the past. I survived. My reasons are perfectly sane to me, and only to me. To anyone else, your airplane will instantly disintegrate and you will all die a horrible death.

My case only: The plane has an increase of 40HP over the factory offering, an increase of approx 22%. My plane is rated to utility category up to gross weight. My plane is eligible for a 200Lb increase in gross weight by addition of tip tanks(I don't have them). In place of tip tanks, I have the later model wing tips which provide an additional wing area to distribute load. My plane was offered as a militarized version with an additional 250Lb weight increase with no change to the airframe except a canopy, tail, and seating accommodation.

The plane is older than dirt. It shows no fatigue, however, similar airplanes of similar vintage have suffered catastrophic wing separation after a high number of high G maneuvers which I don't do, and hasn't occurred in my plane.

YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.

What affect do the wingtip extensions have on Va?
 
...I don't want to do loops in a plane with wood spars that's been habitually over-stressed by a fat pilot and passenger without regard for maximum weight limits...

If you're thinking that metal spars would be magically stronger you'd be wrong.

There have been a number of incorrect assumptions in this thread in regards to what a gross weight number means and one of them is that it is artificially lower than actual for some regulatory reason. An aircraft design is a delicate balance between structural strength, weight, performance and safety and although there is a margin that will allow you to get away with an over gross flight it depends on you never encountering a situation that would take you to one of those limits. That might be turbulence or an abrupt or botched maneuver or density altitude.

When you see an aircraft departing that is clearly over gross you can't automatically assume that it's idiocy at work. If conditions are right it can be perfectly safe and the aircraft is constantly losing weight as fuel is expended but obviously there is an elevated risk factor until the over weight factor has been resolved.

Certainly there are situations where you'd have to decide if the risk of departing over gross on a cool calm morning for a long trip over hostile terrain would be less than doing so with your fuel tanks half empty :dunno:
 
You're asking a question that doesn't have a single answer. Nobody here can point to one specific factor and say "this is what all max gross weights are based off of", because there are many factors that aircraft engineers have to consider when setting the limits.

At any certain weight, the ability to maintain a positive climb rate at full power does not mean it will pass the many other specifications and flight tests that have to be demonstrated for certification. Any one of the hundreds of specifications can be the one that puts a cap on the max gross weight.

The engineering /aerodynamic limitations may or may not match the limitations the marketing department, the certification rules, or the liability folks want published. So you're left having to accept what is in the POH and trusting that it is a workable number that may or may not include a safety factor.
 
Let's just say that if Miami is being overrun by zombies and I can get my friends and family to the airport and can get to a club 172 before anyone else, well, gross weight will certainly be put to the test and I would not hesitate to take off with as many folks as I can stuff in the airplane, prolly about eight of them.
 
The engineering /aerodynamic limitations may or may not match the limitations the marketing department, the certification rules, or the liability folks want published. So you're left having to accept what is in the POH and trusting that it is a workable number that may or may not include a safety factor.

I have little doubt that there is a decent safety factor on normal category aircraft. That would be a safety factor between the 3.8 positive G loading required for certification and the elastic limit of the weakest member. There is an additional significant buffer between the elastic limit and failure. I think I remember reading that there is not even a report of an inflight breakup of a 172 so if you can get one to climb to a safe altitude, you are probably OK in the face of a zombie apocalypse. Slicker, speedier aircraft, of course, can get into situations where you can tear them apart but that is not so much that the factor of safety is not there as that you can exceed it.
 
If you're thinking that metal spars would be magically stronger you'd be wrong.
I don't, but apparently the manufacturer did, since newer Citabrias have metal. FWIW I threw in the "wood" comment for the OP, who's a newbie, for more drama.

dtuuri
 
Let's just say that if Miami is being overrun by zombies and I can get my friends and family to the airport and can get to a club 172 before anyone else, well, gross weight will certainly be put to the test and I would not hesitate to take off with as many folks as I can stuff in the airplane, prolly about eight of them.

I watched 7 people climb out of a Super Cub in Alaska, looked like a clown car.
 
Interesting article:

The Myth of Gross Weight

"Airplanes regularly take off for ferry and distance-record flights with overloads; the late Max Conrad began his nonstop flight from Casablanca, Morocco, to Los Angeles in a Piper Comanche 2,000 pounds over gross."
 
Check out this video of an overloaded Cessna with what looks like 2 notches of flaps trying to take off. Tragic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTnW2TXOacY

Here is what looks like a knowledgeable post from another copy of that video:

"Tragic accident. It was not about weight or CG (it was heavy but within limits according to the report), nor density altitude (hot weather but 0' msl, and the pilot was used to a 10,000' DA airport). Takeoff technique was an issue (short+soft+heavy+cross wind), but most importantly it was about human factor. Under the same circumstances - a kid dying and you are the only pilot around - assuming you are a kind human being like Rafael was, would you accept this flight? Would you take the mother with you? In front or in back? would you take the doctor to keep the kid stable? Would you warn her not to touch the controls, just like he did? (her shoe was later found melted on the right pedal)
In my mind, both Rafael Arenas and Dr Andres Gomez are true heroes and deserve respect."
 
Here is what looks like a knowledgeable post from another copy of that video:

"Would you take the mother with you? ... Would you warn her not to touch the controls, just like he did? (her shoe was later found melted on the right pedal)
"
I don't know what the author of that post is implying. Is he saying the mother somehow was able to pull the right rudder pedal aft with her right foot? :confused: That plane lifted off in a right-hand forward slip which takes left rudder pressure and sets the scene for a cross-control stall where the left wing stalls first--exactly what appears to have happened.

dtuuri
 
I have little doubt that there is a decent safety factor on normal category aircraft. That would be a safety factor between the 3.8 positive G loading required for certification and the elastic limit of the weakest member.

That would be the regulatory minimum. I doubt Cessna builds structure to the minimum limit. I also believe that Cessna's engineers design additional growth potential (or fudge factors) into their designs.

But I don't know, so I observe the published figures.
 
What affect do the wingtip extensions have on Va?

Well, in a general sense we can say that Va moves down a bit. Wing loading has gone down in Lb/SqFt. I haven't calculated it, and I just use the section from the M35 in my POH to get best guess. I use the section for the G35 for performance, and M35 for weights.
 
I've been avoiding posting in this thread, because it was started by a student. But - I will venture in, at my peril.

I have flown over-gross in the past. I survived. My reasons are perfectly sane to me, and only to me. To anyone else, your airplane will instantly disintegrate and you will all die a horrible death.

My case only: The plane has an increase of 40HP over the factory offering, an increase of approx 22%. My plane is rated to utility category up to gross weight. My plane is eligible for a 200Lb increase in gross weight by addition of tip tanks(I don't have them).
Adding weight at the tips reduces wing structure bending stress with wheels on the ground. Adding weight in the cabin increases it. So it matters a lot where you add the extra weight, and that's why airplanes have zero fuel weights.

In place of tip tanks, I have the later model wing tips which provide an additional wing area to distribute load.
Doesn't change the situation -- you're still adding bending stresses to the wing structure.

My plane was offered as a militarized version with an additional 250Lb weight increase with no change to the airframe except a canopy, tail, and seating accommodation.
The military takes chances the FAA does not permit us to take.

The plane is older than dirt. It shows no fatigue,
There is no way you can possibly make that statement without destructive testing. You cannot possibly know all the internal grain structure changes which may have occurred in your load-bearing structures, even with X-ray, ultrasound, and dye-penetrant inspections.

however, similar airplanes of similar vintage have suffered catastrophic wing separation after a high number of high G maneuvers which I don't do, and hasn't occurred in my plane.
The fact that some failures occurred during high-G maneuvers doesn't mean failures will not eventually occur without high-G maneuvers if the structure is loaded beyond book limits. This is basic mechanical and materials engineering stuff I learned as a sophomore in college (BSEng, University of Michigan, 1972).
 
I am simply looking at this as an engineer; I doubt there is any significant downside other than degraded performance to flying an airplane significantly overweight provided CG is kept well away from fore and aft limits.
Think fatigue due to repeated stresses beyond intended use, not immediate stress/strain failure, and I believe you may change your engineering opinion.
 
Adding weight at the tips reduces wing structure bending stress with wheels on the ground. Adding weight in the cabin increases it. So it matters a lot where you add the extra weight, and that's why airplanes have zero fuel weights.

Doesn't change the situation -- you're still adding bending stresses to the wing structure.

The military takes chances the FAA does not permit us to take.

There is no way you can possibly make that statement without destructive testing. You cannot possibly know all the internal grain structure changes which may have occurred in your load-bearing structures, even with X-ray, ultrasound, and dye-penetrant inspections.

The fact that some failures occurred during high-G maneuvers doesn't mean failures will not eventually occur without high-G maneuvers if the structure is loaded beyond book limits. This is basic mechanical and materials engineering stuff I learned as a sophomore in college (BSEng, University of Michigan, 1972).


YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver on close course, objects in mirror are larger than they appear, contents have settled, and may cause anal leakage.
 
IOW, you're saying it's OK for you to do it but not anyone else?

:rolleyes:

Thanks for your invaluable input.
 
OP mentioned he sees a lot of airplanes taking off that he "knows" are overweight taking off. I saw someone else down the line saying 4 people in a 172 or pa28 is a "stupid pilot trick".

I fly an Archer, pa-28-181. My useful load is 1004#. This means I could fly 4 200lb persons (800#) and fill the tanks to 1gal above tabs (34gal) and be right at my max gross weight but legal and safe. Other Archers have a heavier empty weight due to avionics or other things and may only 800-900# useful load and could not do this.

I would submit that if you haven't weighed the people and seen a w&b sheet for the airplane in question, you don't really know.

Can airplanes fly over gross? Of course! They won't perform as well. There's no doubt some fudge factor built in for when you and your passengers fill up on $100 hamburgers and souvenir t-shirts and such and head home heavier than you arrived.

But... you know those performance charts you've(hopefully) looked at as a student? Those charts are correct... at the weight specified(usually max gross) ASSUMING YOU FLY THE AIRPLANE ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY. Nobody flies the airplane perfectly every time. Oh, you should be able to get close to those numbers most of the time, especially when you've been practicing.

Try this exercise... find a nice long runway. Do a few full stop landings. Note where you are rotating on takeoff, note where you are when you get 500' up and make your crosswind turn. Note when you land where you're able to get the airplane stopped without mashing the brakes. Now, (preferably with a CFI) load up the same airplane with whatever you can find to gross weight. Fly the pattern 100' high and make your approach about 10kts too fast. Watch what happens... see how much more runway that eats up.

Now realize you only changed two factors, weight and approach speed. Temperature and wind change things too. These things make big differences, do you want to give up the fudge factors you have control over?
 
Check out this video of an overloaded Cessna with what looks like 2 notches of flaps trying to take off. Tragic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTnW2TXOacY

FYI, that's not a 172. It appears to be a 182. 20 deg flaps is not a FU; it's an approved short field takeoff configuration. They can also haul a lot more weight than a 172.

They hold up to 88 gal of fuel, and we don't know how much was loaded.
 
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Think fatigue due to repeated stresses beyond intended use, not immediate stress/strain failure, and I believe you may change your engineering opinion.

If fatigue was the principle issue then there would be time limits. Obviously you've been in the world where time limits apply. Not many time limits on the airframe for spam cans.

Now consider a couple cases, the 180 hp engine change on the 172 and the turbo dakota/dakota. On the 172 gross weight could be increased by installing a 180 engine and limiting flaps. No structural change.

The turbo dakota has a gross weight 100 pounds lower than the 235 hp version of the dakota. No structural difference.

Fatigue is not a factor for gross weight in those examples. Performance is.
 
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