US Sectionals have lost foreign detail

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
US Sectional charts used to have rich detail of areas of southern Canada (esp between NY and MI), as well as the Bahamas and Cuba. This is gone in the latest chart revision.

Does anyone know why and if AOPA is doing anything to undo this?
 
I guess we’re back to paper for Bahamas, Mexico, or Canada trips?
 
schmookeeg said:
In a world of EFBs and digital charts... does it matter?
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So operating under the hypothesis that we don’t actually need VFR charts onboard?

FF still gives you all of the runway and frequency data. After that it’s just “the south side of the third island on the left?”
 
Dang young pilots.......Asked one if he had an old sectional he could give me.

He thought for a surprising time, then said that he had not ever had a paper sectional. Panel Garmin's, Ipad, EFB.

The possibility that the GPS signal might be shut off is so tiny, but if it happens, what is plan B?

I have made a lot of flights without looking at a sectional, but always had them along. Sometimes out of date, but most of the earth does not move often.
 
There are some seaplane and remote strips getting randomly deleted off the charts up north too

Im just thankful this lack of services is reflected in the massive reduction in federal taxes I paid…oh wait
 
The sections on my tablet work even if GPS isn't connected. You have to know where you're at then, but that's same as a paper sectional.

The US sectionals used to be downloadable in viewable format for free from the FAA. TIFF I think. I don't know if the same capability exists for Canada.
 
Albany Tom said:
The sections on my tablet work even if GPS isn't connected. You have to know where you're at then, but that's same as a paper sectional.

The US sectionals used to be downloadable in viewable format for free from the FAA. TIFF I think. I don't know if the same capability exists for Canada.
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Canada, especially aviation wise, has always been a poor return on tax “investment” compared to the US
 
It does create a safety of flight issue between New York and Michigan as there is almost no detail while over Canada. In the past US sectionals covered this in the same details the rest of the US. The same applies between Florida and Puerto Rico.
 
DesertNomad said:
US Sectional charts used to have rich detail of areas of southern Canada (esp between NY and MI), as well as the Bahamas and Cuba. This is gone in the latest chart revision.

Does anyone know why and if AOPA is doing anything to undo this?
Click to expand...

Damn, I used to rely on the U.S charts when flying in Canada. They don't have any online version either, like skyvector, because their charts are copyrighted by the government. I can only presume this is some anti-aviation move by Canada.
 
schmookeeg said:
A safety of flight issue because you no longer get free chart details of a neighboring country? This seems solvable by buying some charts?

http://products.navcanada.ca/shop-vfr/VFR-Navigation-Charts-VNC/
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Sure, but why would the FAA want Americans to give money to Canada, Mexico or Cuba (for over flights)? Can you even buy VFR charts for Cuba with the embargo? Sporty's still lists the Caribbean VFR chart, but the FAA sectional for Detroit has removed all detail from Canada.

ForeFlight says that VFR charts for the Caribbean are unavailable and the FAA chart no longer lists any information for airports along the route from the US Mainland to Puerto Rico.
 
DesertNomad said:
Sure, but why would the FAA want Americans to give money to Canada, Mexico or Cuba (for over flights)? Can you even buy VFR charts for Cuba with the embargo? Sporty's still lists the Caribbean VFR chart, but the FAA sectional for Detroit has removed all detail from Canada.

ForeFlight says that VFR charts for the Caribbean are unavailable and the FAA chart no longer lists any information for airports along the route from the US Mainland to Puerto Rico.
Click to expand...

For what we pay in taxes? I think we should be able to expect more from the FAA
 
I noticed the change on ForeFlight between last Wednesday and yesterday. Caught me by surprise as well.
 
geezer said:
Dang young pilots.......Asked one if he had an old sectional he could give me.

He thought for a surprising time, then said that he had not ever had a paper sectional. Panel Garmin's, Ipad, EFB.

The possibility that the GPS signal might be shut off is so tiny, but if it happens, what is plan B?

I have made a lot of flights without looking at a sectional, but always had them along. Sometimes out of date, but most of the earth does not move often.
Click to expand...

You do know you can still look at the charts without GPS, I do it all the time, you just won’t get your plane position. Same functionality without all the folding and unfolding, etc.
I have old charts I still use when I want to plan trips.
 
Sad news indeed. I liked using the FAA map depiction over the Canadian one since the airport/airspace boundaries are more readily visible on the FAA than on the Nav Canada depictions. You are supposed to fly with the Canadian maps in Canada, and not the FAA ones, but eh.... Now I guess we have no choice and must refer to these low contrast Canadian charts.

FltplanGo is my flight bag of preference, and so far it has been totally free for many years... and even after Garmin bought them, they still remain free. All the functionality I need for VFR and IFR at the right price, including Canadian charts. :)
 
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This sucks. I fly to Monterrey Mexico every month. Foreflight doesn't offer a Mexico VFR subscription.
 
schmookeeg said:
In a world of EFBs and digital charts... does it matter?
Click to expand...
Missing on the current ForeFlight, Garmin Pilot, and Skyvector as well. Also the current sectionals downloadable from the FAA lack foreign detail.
 
cowtowner said:
This sucks. I fly to Monterrey Mexico every month. Foreflight doesn't offer a Mexico VFR subscription.
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You can get Jepp North America charts through foreflight which include a VFR chart. Not very detailed but it works.
 
schmookeeg said:
A safety of flight issue because you no longer get free chart details of a neighboring country? This seems solvable by buying some charts?

http://products.navcanada.ca/shop-vfr/VFR-Navigation-Charts-VNC/
Click to expand...

When was the last time anyone used a paper sectional chart? If there is an online version, even if it is subcription based, that would be a reasonable option. I did my early flying in Canada , 25 years ago. We only used paper charts back then. It is crazy to think that they have not moved on since then.
 
RudyP said:
You can get Jepp North America charts through foreflight which include a VFR chart. Not very detailed but it works.
Click to expand...

I have a Jepp subscription. In my opinion, their VFR charts suck
 
DesertNomad said:
It does create a safety of flight issue between New York and Michigan as there is almost no detail while over Canada. In the past US sectionals covered this in the same details the rest of the US. The same applies between Florida and Puerto Rico.
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That, in my opinion, is not a safety of flight issue. That is a minor financial inconvenience. There are some minor things that weren’t on the US charts covering the Canadian airspace/airports that I wouldn’t want to be without anyway.

If you’re cheap, like me, just use the FltPlan Go EFB and charts. The Canadian charts are there and are free. I gave up my Canada subscription in foreflight several years ago when I could no longer justify the expense for the occasional Canadian trips I was making.
 
I think the safety of flight is more that this was not announced and the US has provided this data for years if not decades. It will also encourage people to avoid Canada overflight and add to more traffic along the south side of the lakes.
 
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Not much between MI & NY. Maybe use this picture, get FF, carry an old road atlas with you.

This is a GP view.

6DC9E27E-730E-4267-BB8E-EDD1A5206F6F.png
 
Thanks, I’ll get around to it.

Ok, I updated. I see with the new update, there’s much less detail with Canadian info. I guess it’s the way it is.

yes I went flying yesterday, don’t normally take or set up Garmin Pilot for a short local flight.
 
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It was "announced" on October 12, 2022 https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/safety_alerts/ - but the scope of the changes was not adequately described ("...areas outside of the U.S. shall be skeletonized
on all VFR aeronautical charts...").

Seems that "skeletonized" does not include things like airspace outlines, which might be of interest to some casual border- and over-flyers.
These flyers might even still be working with US controllers (because, among other things, Cleveland Center covers southern Ontario along Lake Erie).

A fun oddity arises near Sault Ste. Marie Michigan and Ontario (look near KANJ) ... There is Class D airspace in Michigan from a Canadian airport. Frequencies are no longer available on the current (Dec 29) FAA Chart. Good times getting a transition or just monitoring arrivals and departures for awareness.
 
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SamSES said:
There are some seaplane and remote strips getting randomly deleted off the charts up north too

Im just thankful this lack of services is reflected in the massive reduction in federal taxes I paid…oh wait
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Appearance on the chart is discretionary on the airport owner. The FAA shouldn't be dropping things off randomly except for the "OBJECTIONABLE" status stuff.
 
pjeski said:
Missing on the current ForeFlight, Garmin Pilot, and Skyvector as well. Also the current sectionals downloadable from the FAA lack foreign detail.
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Sure. They're not the authority on foreign airspace. I wouldn't expect them to spend resources duplicating Canada's work in their own chart office. Charts are cheap.

Garmin Pilot offers Canada for $109/yr if this persists as a "safety of flight" issue for some. I have no idea if the Mexico/South America sub includes enough detail in the caribbean to cover those flights. I assume Foreflight is similar.
 
schmookeeg said:
Sure. They're not the authority on foreign airspace. I wouldn't expect them to spend resources duplicating Canada's work in their own chart office. Charts are cheap.

Garmin Pilot offers Canada for $109/yr if this persists as a "safety of flight" issue for some. I have no idea if the Mexico/South America sub includes enough detail in the caribbean to cover those flights. I assume Foreflight is similar.
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As far as I know not all countries publish VFR Charts (Bahamas for example). The US provided nice VFR coverage of the Bahamas until a few days go. I would think it would be in the interest of both countries to have the FAA do this... even if Bahamas paid for it.
 
So, this might be a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway- why are digital charts so expensive anyway? I doubt the charts change all that much from month to month and I'm assuming the companies distributing them would have to be pulling the free digital versions published by the FAA and just re-packaging them.

What actual work is going into this that remotely justifies some of the subscription prices they're charging?
 
cowman said:
So, this might be a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway- why are digital charts so expensive anyway? I doubt the charts change all that much from month to month and I'm assuming the companies distributing them would have to be pulling the free digital versions published by the FAA and just re-packaging them.

What actual work is going into this that remotely justifies some of the subscription prices they're charging?
Click to expand...
Because enough people keep buying them? Simple supply and demand economics. Supply isn’t really an issue here. But demand is. Gee, they keep buying at this price, why lower it.
 
cowman said:
So, this might be a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway- why are digital charts so expensive anyway? I doubt the charts change all that much from month to month and I'm assuming the companies distributing them would have to be pulling the free digital versions published by the FAA and just re-packaging them.

What actual work is going into this that remotely justifies some of the subscription prices they're charging?
Click to expand...

The digital charts are free. There are free EFB apps, after all. The subscription price is for all the other features.
 
SamSES said:
There are some seaplane and remote strips getting randomly deleted off the charts up north too
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how to parse this, but from the September 8 charting notice:

Effective November 3, 2023, Visual Flight Rules (VFR) aeronautical charts will no longer make reference to emergency value in private airport charting.

Only private airports with landmark value will be retained and charted beyond February 23, 2023.​
 
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