US Airways A320 Crash Into Hudson River

Local news made the CO connection with Sully - AF Academy Grad; Post-grad degree from UNC
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Come on out here and set up Tony's Soaring Instruction and I'll take lessons. :)
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Even if just for a month over the summer... Ted will put you up and you will have more then one student... We could tow witht he Aztec :smilewinkgrin:
 
Dedicated glider training is cool and valuable. It's a good thing to remember that when you're in an aircraft going down with an engine out, you're not in a glider with a nice minimal sink rate and long glide path.

The more rigorous, engine failure training in a powered aircraft with high sink rate to maximize your glide's possible landing options, is the most valuable in honing skills for real life emergency scenarios.
 
It really would be nice to hear more about the FO in the news. The guys gotta feel like chopped liver. I have to believe the guy was active in the emergency ops and not just sitting there like another Pax he had to have some important role. Greg am I wrong here?

Also in the event the FO was flying the plane in the event of the emergency such as this one would the Captain automatically or usually take over the stick?
 
AdamZ said:
Greg am I wrong here?
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One armed paper hanger comes to mind, to keep it from being crude. :D

Also in the event the FO was flying the plane in the event of the emergency such as this one would the Captain automatically or usually take over the stick?
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Short answer is, "It depends." on how comfortable the Captain was with letting the First Officer handle it. In this case, if the First Officer was flying the airplane, the Captain was certainly within his rights and probably was expected to take over.
 
Hey, Greg and Matt, how often do you think Captain "Scully" practiced post-takeoff faliure out of LGA?

I'm thinking he was spring loaded to go for Teterboro or the Hudson depending on altitude so the decision was almost pre-made. I'll bet he made that very water landing a hundred times ...in the simulator.

Of course, Bravo Zulu to him for the best execution possible.

I like how the passengers are saying he was quiet and humble. I'm sure he had a lot of thoughts going through his head like a constant reply wondering if he did everything right and wondering if his career was over. He did everything right.
 
AdamZ said:
Wow can you imagine what folks in midtown manhatten must have thought when they saw a plane over the hudson river at a few hunderd feet AGL .
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Robin Givens of ABC saw the actual impact out her apartment window.

They had one witness who was crying because 1) she feared for the passengers and 2) she was reminded of 9/11.

There's gotta be plenty of live video to be had.
 
mikea said:
Hey, Greg and Matt, how often do you think Captain "Scully" practiced post-takeoff faliure out of LGA?
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Depends on where they do their sim sessions. My guess is probably not very often if at all.

I'll bet he made that very water landing a hundred times ...in the simulator.
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Sorry to disappoint you, but I will take that bet. We don't practice COMPLETE engine failures. Just one engine failures. Having a total loss of all engines just does not happen. Well yes, occasionally, but it isn't something we spend any time in the simulator doing.

Of course, Bravo Zulu to him for the best execution possible.
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No doubt about that.

and wondering if his career was over.
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I DO doubt that. People seem to think any little hiccup is a career ender. Reality is it takes a lot to get fired.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Sorry to disappoint you, but I will take that bet. We don't practice COMPLETE engine failures. Just one engine failures. Having a total loss of all engines just does not happen. Well yes, occasionally, but it isn't something we spend any time in the simulator doing.
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Wasn't that one of the things they found with the Gilmi Glider? When the pilots looked for the emergency checklist for both engines failing they found there wasn't one?

As you point out, it is exceedingly rare for both engines to fail.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Depends on where they do their sim sessions. My guess is probably not very often if at all.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I will take that bet. We don't practice COMPLETE engine failures. Just one engine failures. Having a total loss of all engines just does not happen. Well yes, occasionally, but it isn't something we spend any time in the simulator doing.
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You will be from now on, I'll wager.
 
Just thought of something: I wonder if somebody, anybody, got video of the ditching itself? Security or weather/traffic cam? Tourist on the river, maybe? I haven't seen or heard of anything yet.
Maybe whoever has footage is holding out for big bucks...:D

I'd love to see that; it must have been an awesome sight to see that go so well, although a little alarming.
 
Greebo said:
You will be from now on, I'll wager.
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Bet not. We don't do deadstick landings in the sim and there have been a few of those too. We CANNOT train for every conceivable possibility. There just isn't enough time. And then there are the inconceivable.
 
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mikea said:
I like how the passengers are saying he was quiet and humble. I'm sure he had a lot of thoughts going through his head like a constant reply wondering if he did everything right and wondering if his career was over. He did everything right.
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Yes he did and this is not an attempt to divert attention away from that fact.

However, imagine how different the press treatment would have been if for any reason you can imagine the plane caught a wingtip, yawed violently, broke the fuselage open, and sank promptly? He would have been roundly excoriated in the press for not trying for TEB, LGA, Van Courtland Park, etc. etc. rather than risking all those lives in water fatally cold.

OK, I am laying it on a little thick here, but my point is that his humility might be fueled by the thoughts of how bad it could have been. The difference between success and failure was a narrow margin....

-Skip
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Bet not. We don't do deadstick landings in the sim and there have been a few of those too. We CANNOT train for every conceivable possibility. There just isn't enough time. And then there are the inconceivable.
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Well, we'll see. I think the massive publicity behind this accident may cause a change in the regimen.

Perhaps not, however - because everyone lived. If the plane had gone down with less grace, I'd be more convicted.

But I'll still bet that the change occurs. I just wont bet much.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Bet not. We don't do deadstick landings in the sim and there have been a few of those too. We CANNOT train for every conceivable possibility. There just isn't enough time. And then there are the inconceivable.
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I agree. It's more important to instill the judgement necessary to manage the other situations. The one that always comes to mind is UA232/Sioux City.
 
wsuffa said:
I agree. It's more important to instill the judgement necessary to manage the other situations. The one that always comes to mind is UA232/Sioux City.
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The problem with this thinking is you're applying it with reason and judgment, which isn't something that applies to "public sentiment".
 
Skip Miller said:
Yes he did and this is not an attempt to divert attention away from that fact.

However, imagine how different the press treatment would have been if for any reason you can imagine the plane caught a wingtip, yawed violently, broke the fuselage open, and sank promptly? He would have been roundly excoriated in the press for not trying for TEB, LGA, Van Courtland Park, etc. etc. rather than risking all those lives in water fatally cold.

OK, I am laying it on a little thick here, but my point is that his humility might be fueled by the thoughts of how bad it could have been. The difference between success and failure was a narrow margin....
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Much worse than a poor ditching would be coming down anywhere over land. IT"S MANHATTAN! It would have hit lotsa people on the ground.

Even when they blamed a bird strike from the start. As I predicted the press went for the "What can be done about birds?" and "How could a mere bird take down a airliner?" deal.

BTW, I love how now the TV folk have a ready source of appropriate video: YouTube. They showed the two popular bird strike videos on the networks this morning: The F-16 punch out and the British airliner that lost one and went around.
 
Greebo said:
The problem with this thinking is you're applying it with reason and judgment, which isn't something that applies to "public sentiment".
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That's why we have the kind of process we do for rulemaking. Slow and deliberative.
 
wsuffa said:
I agree. It's more important to instill the judgement necessary to manage the other situations. The one that always comes to mind is UA232/Sioux City.
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IIRC, simulations were made of that flight, and no other flight crews were able to do as well as Capt. Haynes as his crew. So, I suppose it can be successfully argued that creating new simulator scenarios in response to accidents may not always be productive.


Trapper John
 
mikea said:
Hey, Greg and Matt, how often do you think Captain "Scully" practiced post-takeoff faliure out of LGA?

I'm thinking he was spring loaded to go for Teterboro or the Hudson depending on altitude so the decision was almost pre-made.
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I would expect so, if his regular flying was out of LGA. I mean, don't you already know what your options are when departing each runway at your home field?
 
. . . . and in view of his quiet humility I'd bet that he, as would most of us, was anxious to change his pants, if only psychologically. He's a cover shot for just about any major magazine.

HR
 
TknoFlyer said:
Remember the success rate of crews put through that scenario in the sim?
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Same as the AA jet that had the engine depart the mount taking off from O'Hare. Once the pilot in the sim (as opposed to the real world crew) knew what had happened he/she always succeeded in bring the jet back safely.
 
Lawreston said:
. . . . and in view of his quiet humility I'd bet that he, as would most of us, was anxious to change his pants, if only psychologically. He's a cover shot for just about any major magazine.

HR
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That's why he wanted the water landing, so no one would notice. :D
 
tonycondon said:
I would expect so, if his regular flying was out of LGA. I mean, don't you already know what your options are when departing each runway at your home field?
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Being the safety-conscious pilot his resume indicates he is, I am certain he's mentally thought through the "what would I do" options for LGA. Even if it was never practiced in a sim.

Speaking of "options at your home field", drop the nose sometime, when at 300-500' after departure, and see what's out front of you... my instructor did that--pulled power and had me get the nose down, and straight-ahead options appeared that I'd never seen before in the nose-high attitude--I'd only been aware of the options off to the side prior to that experience.
 
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TangoWhiskey said:
Speaking of "options at your home field", drop the nose sometime, when at 300-500' after departure, and see what's out front of you... my instructor did that--pulled power and had me get the nose down, and straight-ahead options appeared that I'd never seen before in the nose-high attitude--I'd only been aware of the options off to the side prior to that experience.
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At ADS, departing 15 (as is usual), the options are precious few, and pretty much all fall into the "damn the airplane, I hope we can live" category. It ain't pretty.
 
Good point, Troy. Whenever I start using a new airport regularly I take an extra turn around the pattern to survey forced landing options for all legs. In quite a few cases turning 45-90 degrees makes a big difference in options.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Speaking of "options at your home field", drop the nose sometime, when at 300-500' after departure, and see what's out front of you... my instructor did that--pulled power and had me get the nose down, and straight-ahead options appeared that I'd never seen before in the nose-high attitude--I'd only been aware of the options off to the side prior to that experience.
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Heck it's really fun when the CFI-G pulls the tow release the first time at 200'. Until I did that for the first time I rarely gave a power failure on takeoff any second thought. Now I tend to be more aware of what is around me, and actively look for places to put down. In the glider I actively talk to myself about where I would go if the rope were to disconnect itself until I can make a normal pattern back to the RWY.
 
vontresc said:
Heck it's really fun when the CFI-G pulls the tow release the first time at 200'. Until I did that for the first time I rarely gave a power failure on takeoff any second thought. Now I tend to be more aware of what is around me, and actively look for places to put down. In the glider I actively talk to myself about where I would go if the rope were to disconnect itself until I can make a normal pattern back to the RWY.
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Yep, Matt Michael and I compared this incident to a mid altitude tow failure. He had possibilities of LGA and Teterboro, and of course the river. he had to react, evaluate, and make the right choice. sounds like he did. as we discussed at length, sometimes its nice only having one option. when you add more choices, the problem gets a lot more complicated.
 
We need to do something about these birds. They are a hazard to all! They need to be killed. Each and every one!!!!:rolleyes:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
That link didn't take me straight to the article, but a search of the airline accident records for "starling" returned a 1960's crash of an Electra out of Boston... was that the article you were referencing??
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Yep, that's the one...I wonder if it was inspiration for the Hitchcock movie.


Trapper John
 
flyersfan31 said:
We need to do something about these birds. They are a hazard to all! They need to be killed. Each and every one!!!!:rolleyes:
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That's what I say about us killing mosquitoes every summer. Those airplanes are helping out in public health!
 
mikea said:
BTW, I love how now the TV folk have a ready source of appropriate video: YouTube. They showed the two popular bird strike videos on the networks this morning: The F-16 punch out and the British airliner that lost one and went around.
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I love how they're comparing it to the highjacked flight that ditched after the highjackers insisted on taking the helm.
 
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