Upgrading Saratoga panel

Jamie Kirk

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JamieK
With my 430s no longer being supported after 2024 I decided instead of doing a simple upgrade go for broke.

Opinion of panel layout and equipment?
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Current panel:
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Equipment list:
Garmin G500 TXi 10.6" Landscape PIlot Side
Garmin G500 TXi 10.6" Landscape CoPilot Side
Garmin G500 TXi EIS 7" Portrait
Garmin GI 275 Pilot and CoPilot Side
Garmin GTN 750 Xi
Garmin GTN 650 Xi
Garmin GMA 35c Bluetooth Audio Panel
Garmin GTX 345R Remote Transponder
Garmin GFC 500 Autopilot with Pitch, Roll, Yaw, and Trim
Garmin GDL 69A XM/Weather Receiver
Garmin GDL 60 Datalink with Planesync
 
I would add an AV-20-S AI, just to have a non Garmin attitude indicator, it’s inexpensive and there’s plenty of room.
 
Just hand the avionics guy a signed blank check and let him do the rest. You do own a Saratoga.
 
Why the copilot side (i.e. passenger) G500? Yes, you have a full 6-pack over there now, but that's not normal in a plane like this.
 
Why the copilot side (i.e. passenger) G500? Yes, you have a full 6-pack over there now, but that's not normal in a plane like this.

My father in law can’t keep his medical and therefore can’t fly and sold his plane. He likes to fly mine, I wanted to give him a cockpit of his own when he’s in right seat.
 
My dad did something similar with 2-10" Dynon displays, was going to put in a 7"HDX for eis like you have laid out but was talked out of it. The copilot side HDX is slightly to the left of center for right seat and is used primarily as engine monitor, but a push of a button and it's all primary instruments.
 
I think the avionics will be worth more than the rest of the plane. o_O Swap in a couple of avidynes and you’re good to go. Lol
 
I think the avionics will be worth more than the rest of the plane. o_O Swap in a couple of avidynes and you’re good to go. Lol

The plane is worth twice as much as I’m spending on the panel on its own.

I flown a Saratoga with the avidyne system, I was not impressed and thought it was garbage.
 
My dad did something similar with 2-10" Dynon displays, was going to put in a 7"HDX for eis like you have laid out but was talked out of it. The copilot side HDX is slightly to the left of center for right seat and is used primarily as engine monitor, but a push of a button and it's all primary instruments.

This project turned into a what’s another $10,000 multiple times
 
The plane is worth twice as much as I’m spending on the panel on its own.

I flown a Saratoga with the avidyne system, I was not impressed and thought it was garbage.
To be fair, I agree about their efis. But as an upgrade to a 430 they are pretty awesome value.
 
I think it's an absolutely beautiful layout, very clean, and I love it. I might make one change. Instead of what looks like 2 backup artificial horizons, I'd put one in the middle, and on the left put in a steam gauge airspeed and altimeter. So that in the event of a complete electrical failure you'd still have a very flyable VFR aircraft. VFR you can probably fly that without any gauges, but that's fast enough and big enough that knowing airspeed/altitude would probably make landing a bit less stressful.
 
I think it's an absolutely beautiful layout, very clean, and I love it. I might make one change. Instead of what looks like 2 backup artificial horizons, I'd put one in the middle, and on the left put in a steam gauge airspeed and altimeter. So that in the event of a complete electrical failure you'd still have a very flyable VFR aircraft. VFR you can probably fly that without any gauges, but that's fast enough and big enough that knowing airspeed/altitude would probably make landing a bit less stressful.

Complete electrical failure I have almost an hour of battery backup on each device.
 
Complete electrical failure I have almost an hour of battery backup on each device.
It's awesome that they have built in battery backup, and that they will have up to almost an hour power. And that's probably fine. With time, the batteries won't hold as long. To me, "complete electrical failure" means that everything in the aircraft that was connect to the electrical supply is now dead. I don't know how probable that is, but I'm certain it's possible.

Not saying this to be argumentative. It's partly because I work in systems risk management, and the more decoupled two systems are, the more reliable the over system is. Partly it's because I love the PA-28 and 32 series, and one of their advantages is that they will all fly perfectly without DC power.

Your design is above and beyond, in terms of quality of display and 'cleanness'. I'd make it above in beyond in redundancy, too. (And I know there's a limit to that, too...I would NOT keep a vacuum system or put in a vacuum horizon.)
 
It's awesome that they have built in battery backup, and that they will have up to almost an hour power. And that's probably fine. With time, the batteries won't hold as long. To me, "complete electrical failure" means that everything in the aircraft that was connect to the electrical supply is now dead. I don't know how probable that is, but I'm certain it's possible.

Not saying this to be argumentative. It's partly because I work in systems risk management, and the more decoupled two systems are, the more reliable the over system is. Partly it's because I love the PA-28 and 32 series, and one of their advantages is that they will all fly perfectly without DC power.

Your design is above and beyond, in terms of quality of display and 'cleanness'. I'd make it above in beyond in redundancy, too. (And I know there's a limit to that, too...I would NOT keep a vacuum system or put in a vacuum horizon.)
On the Dynon you have to test the backup battery once a year for degradation. I'm sure Garmin is the same.

But I get what you're saying. What happens if the magic smoke leaves everything that's interconnected. I think that's a pretty big variable with the gi-275 with what you plug into it? If it's just power, ground, pitot, static and it's removed from the g500 then it's truly independent and I'd be less concerned about a total black out.
 
I like the G-5 as backup as it has 4 hours plus of battery time.

In my airplane, I am considering an additional battery back up for the main 10" display on one nav/com/GPS
 
Opinion of panel layout and equipment?

Very, very nice.

Two things I'd consider:

1. Can the autopilot mode control panel be moved to the top center? It would require finding a new place for the annunciator lights, maybe above the pilot-side G500 TXi? (I don't know if moving this is allowed in the Saratoga.) Almost every modern airplane has the autopilot mode controls in the top center, and for good reasons.

2. I'd get two GTN 750Xi units. I used to have one large and one small Avidyne IFD; everything was easier to do/see with the large one, so the small IFD440 was basically relegated to a second COM radio. That's what I went with two large units (GTN 750Xi) in my new panel. If you can find the space, I'd encourage you to do the same thing. (I'd normally add "if you can afford it", but from your choices so far, it doesn't look like your budget for this upgrade is a big constraint... ;))

Glad to see you are getting the yaw damper option for the autopilot!

Regards,
Martin
 
Very, very nice.

Two things I'd consider:

1. Can the autopilot mode control panel be moved to the top center? It would require finding a new place for the annunciator lights, maybe above the pilot-side G500 TXi? (I don't know if moving this is allowed in the Saratoga.) Almost every modern airplane has the autopilot mode controls in the top center, and for good reasons.

2. I'd get two GTN 750Xi units. I used to have one large and one small Avidyne IFD; everything was easier to do/see with the large one, so the small IFD440 was basically relegated to a second COM radio. That's what I went with two large units (GTN 750Xi) in my new panel. If you can find the space, I'd encourage you to do the same thing. (I'd normally add "if you can afford it", but from your choices so far, it doesn't look like your budget for this upgrade is a big constraint... ;))

Glad to see you are getting the yaw damper option for the autopilot!

Regards,
Martin

What is the good reason to put the autopilot controller up high? Only thing I can think of not looking down to set.

Agree on the two big screens, but the 650 screen can still be nice set to Traffic. My current setup is Aspen 1000, 650Xi, iPad and AERA 760. Upgrade in Jan will got o G3X, keep 650Xi and add 750Xi
 
I’m in the early stages of a new panel too. All garmin plus keeping JPI engine monitor. She’s is dissembled and I’mt getting the panel made next. Lots of owner involvement in the tear out and installation.

IMO I wouldn’t bother with the co pilot display. Give some serious thought to switch placement (moves) too. Build a full size mockup and see if you like the autopilot control head there (there is a lip at the top you can use as a finger brace in turbulence).
 
What is the good reason to put the autopilot controller up high? Only thing I can think of not looking down to set.

Agree on the two big screens, but the 650 screen can still be nice set to Traffic. My current setup is Aspen 1000, 650Xi, iPad and AERA 760. Upgrade in Jan will got o G3X, keep 650Xi and add 750Xi

For 2 pilots, you would put AP controls in the center, and the 750/650 within easy reach. Not many of us actually own planes that require 2 pilots and the 2nd pilot just flys in VFR. I arranged my panel so everything was in reach of my right hand.

If OP is just letting someone else fly for fun, then an Aera in a panel mount would be fine.

With G3X you’ll find the benefits of the 750 like displaying charts, etc redundant, GPS is only used as a navigator (flight plan, procedures, etc).

If he wanted to, he could put the AP control where his rear view mirror is, make it like a TBM. The GFC500 controller is basically just buttons so it’s light weight and isn’t very deep.
 
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Power outlets. I would add two cigarette lighter type power outlets on the left side and right side to power I pads, etc.

Would not install usb outlets, as whatever you put in will be outdated in a few years. Just plug in usb power adaptors to the cigarette lighter outlets, which can be replaced easily when needed.
 
What is the good reason to put the autopilot controller up high? Only thing I can think of not looking down to set.
I suspect that's part of it - avoiding head movements as much as possible. I do not know all the Human Factors work that has gone into confirming this as the standard configuration for jets.

The center position also helps the right seater see what modes are active. Occasionally I instruct in planes which have the AP control panel on the left side of the panel, and depending on what other mode annunciators are in the cockpit, it can be very difficult for me to see what modes are active.

- Martin
 
Agree on the two big screens, but the 650 screen can still be nice set to Traffic.
Yes, that is a good use of a GTN 650Xi, though somewhat of a waste for such a capable GPS/NAV/COM. In @Jamie Kirk 's OP's proposed configuration, I'd prefer to use the left GI-275 for traffic (unless it needs to be a PFD in a true reversion scenario). As for the GTNs, I like to have one on the flight plan page and the other on the map page, so that I have both a textual and a graphical representation of my flight plan in front of me. And that works much, much better with the larger screens.

- Martin
 
I flown a Saratoga with the avidyne system, I was not impressed and thought it was garbage.

I thought it was just me. I've tried to like the Avidyne, but I just can't.
 
I would delete the right hand 275 AI and put in a 275 HSI below the left side 275 AI.

And yes - move the autopilot controls to the top.
 
The changes I would make from the OP drawing are:

1. Consider a G3X Touch system instead of a G500 TXi. If at all possible, get time behind both systems with a pilot proficient in their use. There are advantages of each and you might find that the G3X Touch fits your needs better. Some examples: The G3X Touch has a checklist page that is far superior to the GTN 750 checklist page, touching the G3X Touch EIS strip brings up the engine detail page, it has better on-screen controls for comm and nav radios and for its remote audio panel, and it can run a remote comm radio (not a big help if you do keep the dual GTNs but given the tendency for nav/comm/GPS #2 to be only used as comm #2 I like to just have the comm #2 without taking up space in the panel). You can have an even cleaner panel with the G3X Touch than you can with the TXi, and you can control basically all of it from the PFD. The TXi has a good Windows trainer program (or a half-decent one on the iPad) you should play around with, while the G3X Touch will require time in a real airplane.

2. Ditch the second GI 275. Nobody will ever look at it in flight, and it will require more attention during database updates. In my plane, I have so much information onscreen between the TXi, GTN 750 Xi on the Map page, and GTN 650 Xi on Default Nav page that I just keep the GI 275 on the backup PFD page all the time.

3. Put the EIS strip on the PFD rather than a dedicated 7" display. Having your engine instruments right there in your instrument scan rather than having to scan across the radio stack to see your power settings, temperatures, and pressures will make you safer both by keeping your eyes close to the flight instruments when you look at the engine gauges and by keeping your eyes close to the engine gauges while you are flying on instruments. My understanding is that the separate screen for EIS is only necessary in twin turboprop applications of the TXi. I have the EIS on my G3X Touch PFD in my single and on my TXi PFD in my twin, and it's perfect for both.

4. Secondary to #3, remove the GTN 650 Xi and replace the 7" TXi display with a second GTN 750 Xi. The 750 is a great MFD and, if you're going to have dual navigators, I'd rather have them both have the larger screen instead of one being small. I have a 750/650 panel in one plane and almost never touch the 650, which I mostly use to get ATIS/AWOS and, for that, I tune it remotely from the PFD airport information page.

5. Consider a non-remote audio panel. I love my remote audio panel in the two-seat plane but when you have six seats it is nice to have quicker push-button access to the various ISO modes. I went with the PS Engineering PMA 450B in the twin for this reason with the added bonus of a second Bluetooth channel so my passengers and I, or two groups of passengers, can listen to two different things. But the main reason for it is that I spent a lot of time comparing how to change between pilot or crew ISO mode (forced sterile cockpit by turning off the passengers) and ALL mode (seatbelts fastened, seats and tray tables in the full upright and locked position, we will be landing shortly) when things are busy on an approach. I had a GMA 340 and considered all options: keeping it, getting a GMA 350c, getting a GMA 35c remote audio panel, or getting the PMA 450B. Study how to do the things you will need to do in your mission and choose the audio panel that makes your life the easiest.

6. I think that you will need to find a place for a square, red Smart Glide button. The TXi installation in my plane required either a labeled button for it or a big, ugly placard saying that you can push and hold the Direct To button on the navigator to active Smart Glide. The button was less ugly than the placard.

7. Consider a TO/GA button near where you can push it while adjusting the throttle for go-around power. In a coupled approach, it is nice to have a single button to active the missed approach on your navigator and to set the autopilot to a wings-level climb, especially if things aren't going well and you're bouncing around a bit too much to rapidly and accurately hit the missed approach command on the navigator.

8. Try to move the copilot side USB ports closer to the headset jacks, so the cords all go to the same place on the panel and the chances of tangling or tripping are lower. You don't need the copilot side USB ports at all, and your DB updates should go in through a single SD card on the TXi or GTN with Database Sync to the rest of the panel (although the GI 275 seems to be slower and/or require more manual intervention to receive Sync updates than I had expected), or through Garmin Pilot and Database Concierge. But I assume you want those USB ports so your copilot can charge a tablet, phone, or both, so I just would want to see them in a more friendly location than dangling cords around important parts of the cockpit.

9. Don't listen to what anyone says about the cost of the upgrade. It's your plane and your money. Nobody in the world but you can decide whether the next $10,000 put into your panel would be better spent on avgas or wagyu beef or a trip to Auyuittuq National Park. Just be sure to save a few bucks to fly the thing, because you're going to love it when it's done.

Edit to add: Regarding point #5 on audio panels, I found the following videos by POA members helpful in my decisionmaking:
@Martin Pauly:
@FlyingMonkey:

Thank you to both of you for those videos.
 
I suspect that's part of it - avoiding head movements as much as possible. I do not know all the Human Factors work that has gone into confirming this as the standard configuration for jets.

The center position also helps the right seater see what modes are active. Occasionally I instruct in planes which have the AP control panel on the left side of the panel, and depending on what other mode annunciators are in the cockpit, it can be very difficult for me to see what modes are active.

- Martin
I am planning on my AP controller to be just left of the stack, just above the engine controls. Easily visible to both front seats.
 
Yes, that is a good use of a GTN 650Xi, though somewhat of a waste for such a capable GPS/NAV/COM. In @Jamie Kirk 's OP's proposed configuration, I'd prefer to use the left GI-275 for traffic (unless it needs to be a PFD in a true reversion scenario). As for the GTNs, I like to have one on the flight plan page and the other on the map page, so that I have both a textual and a graphical representation of my flight plan in front of me. And that works much, much better with the larger screens.

- Martin
True but I will have a few screens. :D

G3X, 750, 650, AERA 760 in dock and iPad Mini.
 
Nobody in the world but you can decide whether the next $10,000 put into your panel would be better spent on avgas or wagyu beef or a trip to Auyuittuq National Park.
That's the thing - I enjoy a nice panel as much as the next guy, but $80k or whatever a job of this magnitude runs these days is a lot of Avgas. I could be happy with dual G5's and a Garmin 650.

That said, Jamie is going to have a sweet bird once this upgrade is finished.
 
That's the thing - I enjoy a nice panel as much as the next guy, but $80k or whatever a job of this magnitude runs these days is a lot of Avgas. I could be happy with dual G5's and a Garmin 650.

That said, Jamie is going to have a sweet bird once this upgrade is finished.
It’s not about the 80k total. It’s about the next 10k. Panel upgrades are death by a thousand cuts. And the cuts are all lobotomies.
 
Coming along nicely, still on for a January 19th completion.
I remember the "holy cow what have I done?" pictures from my panel upgrade. Don't forget to check out the pile of antique wire they gather around your plane. Did you make any changes from the layout in post #1 above?
 
I'm trying to get smarter on panels here. I volunteered to be on a committee to upgrade our club's planes (two Skyhawks and two Skylanes). We'd like to keep the current instruments, but change the panel to something like a powder coated metal. We have currently what looks like the original - old, cracked, really shabby looking.

Called several places, and responses range from "I'd have to see it", to "Just replacing the panel with no instrument change would be $6000 a plane" to "you can't do it - you need an STC and FAA field authorization".

What's the real story on panel work?
 
I'm trying to get smarter on panels here. I volunteered to be on a committee to upgrade our club's planes (two Skyhawks and two Skylanes). We'd like to keep the current instruments, but change the panel to something like a powder coated metal. We have currently what looks like the original - old, cracked, really shabby looking.

Called several places, and responses range from "I'd have to see it", to "Just replacing the panel with no instrument change would be $6000 a plane" to "you can't do it - you need an STC and FAA field authorization".

What's the real story on panel work?

You don’t need any authorization to replace panels, don’t forget replacing panels requires not just the r/r of the panels and measuring and cutting panels, but the painting and then labeling (placards). $6000 sounds like a reasonable amount.

In my case, the avionics shop did the autocad work, another company cut the panels and another company did the panel placards. There may have been a 4th company to paint it. It took some time to get this all done.
 
Ok. Thanks for the reality check. If you get a laser cut powder coated metal panel, how do you do maintenance, add a new instrument without completely removing that new large sheet of metal?
 
I thought it was just me. I've tried to like the Avidyne, but I just can't.
@Jamie Kirk and @Walboy is your dislike of Avidyne limited to the Saratoga? Or is it a dislike in Avidyne in general?

Trying to learn what would be the proper avionics build for a C182... garmin vs dynon/avidyne.

Thanks in advance!
 
Garmin or someone else. Like it or hate it, I think it’s similar to Apple vs other, ForeFlight vs other, Stratus vs Stratux, etc.

It’s also a matter of critical mass. GA avionics is a small business. An ACME navigator might be slicker than a Garmin, but Garmin is more likely to be around, have a more stable support system, parts longevity, etc.
 
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