Understanding how to fly a holding pattern

[BigBadLou]

One great rule-of-thumb I heard (and it also makes sense, go figure) is that the best entry is the one that will require the smallest turn.
I see the hold, I see my heading, I immediately know which way to turn. Done.

When entering from the outbound course, a direct entry will have a shorter turn than the correct parallel entry. It will also put you on the wrong side of the inbound course.

In your situation, coming in on the outbound heading, the parallel entry makes the smallest turn so it would be the one to choose. A direct entry would require some turning to get away from the inbound leg etc.
Makes sense?

 

[coloradobluesky]

Im someone that thinks the pilot should make the FAA recommended entries. You only get holds on checkrides and IPC's anyway. Well maybe not. Other things will work, but there is only ONE indiputable right way. Carry on.

I agree once you know where the hold it, entering it the easiest way will work, even if it's a roll your own solution. But if you want to impress the checkride guy....

 

[SkyHog]

If those are right hand turns that is NOT A LEGAL HOLD! You NEVER make a turn and come to the holding fix immediately after the turn. I challenge ANYONE to find a single hold depicted that way on any FAA chart!!! Im talking about flying the hold, not entering it.

Doing a hold by making a 180 turn and coming into the fix is impossible because the holding instructions would be ambigous. There would be two possible holds for every holding instruction. That can't happen!

Think of it this way. You always have a straight inbound leg into the fix so you can "wiggle in" and get on the radial. Never turn 180 degrees and arrive at the fix!

(you will have to look at his orginal post #33 and the drawing there, the quote didnt include the drawing)

I am not saying its correct - I am simply saying that should be correct, and the fact that it isn't illustrates a really dumb policy. Why over complicate it? Why not just make it easy - fly to fix, turn outbound. Everytime.

 

[MAKG1]

I am not saying its correct - I am simply saying that should be correct, and the fact that it isn't illustrates a really dumb policy. Why over complicate it? Why not just make it easy - fly to fix, turn outbound. Everytime.

Try that over a VOR at 3000.

You won't like parallel entries under that circumstance.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I am not saying its correct - I am simply saying that should be correct, and the fact that it isn't illustrates a really dumb policy. Why over complicate it? Why not just make it easy - fly to fix, turn outbound. Everytime.

Three reasons its not correct.
1. The whole idea of flying the inbound leg is to be able to "wiggle in" on the radial and have the whole distance to get it right.
2. If you allowed that 180 degree turn to the fix, the holding instructions would be AMBIGOUS because there would be TWO POSSIBLE HOLDS for each holding instruction!!! Can't have that!!!
3. Holds usually line you up for the approach so you can fly straight to the rest of the approach from the inbound approach. This wont happen if you fly the hold wrong.

Also, the controllers are going to be confused. You will be going around in the wrong direction! You ALWAYS have a full length straight leg into the holding fix. ALWAYS!

Any instructor that is teaching that 180 degree turn to the fix is just plain doing it wrong and should stop doing that. Any pilot that thinks he can do it that way should learn that he can't do it that way!

 

[alfadog]

OK, this comes from an instrument student. Can I just simplify this by turning to the holding fix then looking at my DG. If the holding course is behind me, then I'm already flying the inbound leg, so to speak, and should just turn outbound at the fix. If the holding course is ahead of me, then I should turn to that heading at the fix and fly outbound as a parallel entry. No need to draw anything. Wouldn't that work?

 

[coloradobluesky]

There are two possible legal holds at any given VOR radial.
Draw them with direction of flight and label with the ATC instructions.

There are four possible legal holds at any DME or Intersection on a radial.
Draw THEM and label with the ATC instructions.

Then you will know what is going on.

Once you understand that, you can learn entries. Learn the FAA recommended entry. That diagonal is always "into" the hold from the holding point at 20 degrees (GROAN). Other than that, its simple once you have the drawing. Work with it, youll get it

 

[coloradobluesky]

I am not saying its correct - I am simply saying that should be correct, and the fact that it isn't illustrates a really dumb policy. Why over complicate it? Why not just make it easy - fly to fix, turn outbound. Everytime.

Here is why. Click on the drawing.

 

[dtuuri]

One great rule-of-thumb I heard (and it also makes sense, go figure) is that the best entry is the one that will require the smallest turn.
I see the hold, I see my heading, I immediately know which way to turn. Done.

That doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Here's a link to my introductory treatise, so you don't have to navigate the menu. Maybe it'll help (or not).

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

First, you copy the URL from the image attachment that you uploaded. (How you do that depends on what hardware and software you're using to access the forum.) Then you paste that URL into the window that pops up when you click on the little yellow icon (with a picture of mountains on it) that appears at the top of the reply or edit window.

I can't see the image you uploaded, just a red X. What's more, when I try what you said I get a red X too. Please try again, this is something I'd find most useful.

dtuuri

 

[Kritchlow]

You can't hold west on the 210 radial. You can hold SOUTHwest on it. First element of a holding clearance (after naming the holding fix) is the cardinal direction of the holding airspace from the facility. 210 is southwest, not west. You current heading is irrelevant...fly to the fix. You could be north or south of the fix and be on a 120 heading.

Next mistake: inbound course would be 030, not 210....if you are inbound from the southwest, you must be flying northeast. BTW, the thumb method works only when you are heading directly toward the fix.

Note my changes to your post.

You need to read AIM 5-3-8 and ChapTer 8 of my book THE COMPLETGE ADVANCED PILOT, which is loaded with examples.

Bob Gardner

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something... What if you're holding at a DME fix on the 210 Radial? Is it not possible to have a 210 inbound, and be holding NE?

Perhaps I'm not understanding...

 

[dtuuri]

I am not saying its correct - I am simply saying that should be correct, and the fact that it isn't illustrates a really dumb policy. Why over complicate it? Why not just make it easy - fly to fix, turn outbound. Everytime.

Here is the original study, as downloaded from Wally Roberts' TERPS site: http://www.avclicks.com/files/Order_7130_8_Mar31_1964.pdf

Here is the missing page 4 from that download: http://www.avclicks.com/files/Order_7130_8_Page_4.pdf
A lot was considered with very few changes since then.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something... What if you're holding at a DME fix on the 210 Radial? Is it not possible to have a 210 inbound, and be holding NE?

Perhaps I'm not understanding...

I'll take that one. No it is not possible to hold southwest of the DME fix northeast of the fix. I see a lot of poorly expressed scenarios in this thread. Using the word "radial" is a sure setup for a big screw up someday when getting a hold at an intersection or DME fix. In your example, you could certainly be given a hold northeast of the DME fix on the 210° radial, but to arrive at the correct entry you need to be thinking 030° instead.

dtuuri

 

[Kritchlow]

I'll take that one. No it is not possible to hold southwest of the DME fix northeast of the fix. I see a lot of poorly expressed scenarios in this thread. Using the word "radial" is a sure setup for a big screw up someday when getting a hold at an intersection or DME fix. In your example, you could certainly be given a hold northeast of the DME fix on the 210° radial, but to arrive at the correct entry you need to be thinking 030° instead.

dtuuri

I *think* you are agreeing with me, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly..

Hold NE on the 210 radial 20 DME fix. Would that not be a 210 inbound ??

 

[Palmpilot]

I can't see the image you uploaded, just a red X. What's more, when I try what you said I get a red X too. Please try again, this is something I'd find most useful.

Weird. I see an image in my post when I use Firefox, but not when I use Internet Explorer. Trying again isn't possible, because I didn't upload the image; coloradobluesky did. I just copied the URL from the thumbnail in his post and he appears to have deleted the post.

 

[dtuuri]

I *think* you are agreeing with me, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly..

Hold NE on the 210 radial 20 DME fix. Would that not be a 210 inbound ??

Yes, we agree. I was speaking past you to the peanut gallery because you raised a good point.

dtuuri

 

[Kritchlow]

Yes, we agree. I was speaking past you to the peanut gallery because you raised a good point.

dtuuri

Gotcha... Thanks

 

[SkyHog]

Three reasons its not correct.
1. The whole idea of flying the inbound leg is to be able to "wiggle in" on the radial and have the whole distance to get it right.
2. If you allowed that 180 degree turn to the fix, the holding instructions would be AMBIGOUS because there would be TWO POSSIBLE HOLDS for each holding instruction!!! Can't have that!!!
3. Holds usually line you up for the approach so you can fly straight to the rest of the approach from the inbound approach. This wont happen if you fly the hold wrong.

Also, the controllers are going to be confused. You will be going around in the wrong direction! You ALWAYS have a full length straight leg into the holding fix. ALWAYS!

Any instructor that is teaching that 180 degree turn to the fix is just plain doing it wrong and should stop doing that. Any pilot that thinks he can do it that way should learn that he can't do it that way!

Wait...how are you on the wrong radial or going the wrong direction if you fly to the fix and turn outbound? You are just flying one lap that looks a little different and then dead on afterward. There's also only one possible hold, not two.

You are assuming I'm saying "just fly to the fix and do whatever you want." I'm saying "fly to the fix however you want, then execute the hold as directed.

 

[dtuuri]

Weird. I see an image in my post when I use Firefox, but not when I use Internet Explorer. Trying again isn't possible, because I didn't upload the image; coloradobluesky did. I just copied the URL from the thumbnail in his post and he appears to have deleted the post.

Hmmm... I tested what you suggested by copying the properties of his image too. Back to the test cell, stay tuned.

dtuuri

 

[SkyHog]

Here is why. Click on the drawing.

You aren't understanding me. If you are to make left turns and hold south of the vor, and you direct to the VOR and turn left, you aren't ever going to fly it wrong...

We are talking about entries, not the hold itself

 

[dtuuri]

Weird. I see an image in my post when I use Firefox, but not when I use Internet Explorer. Trying again isn't possible, because I didn't upload the image; coloradobluesky did. I just copied the URL from the thumbnail in his post and he appears to have deleted the post.

Well, upon further experimentation I can get two images, both thumbnails with the one in the footnotes a clickable link that blows it up. I give.

dtuuri

 

[alfadog]

I can't see the image you uploaded, just a red X. What's more, when I try what you said I get a red X too. Please try again, this is something I'd find most useful.

dtuuri

• From the quote reply screen or the advanced reply screen, hit "manage attachments".
• Hit "choose file", pick the file or image you want to attach to your post, and hit "upload".
• Wait for it to upload then notice that there is a link (URL) in the manager attachments window for your upload under "current attachments".
• Do whatever you need to do to copy that link then close the manage attachment window.
• Add that URL to your post inside IMG tags. Don't worry about using the tag, if you use the image button on the control bar, it will add them for you.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Dturri. Repost your drawing with direction of flight arrows on it. Your drawing can be interpreted two ways.

As a former DPE, I would think you would support the FAA recomended way of entering holds. About the only place we get holds in on checkrides and IPC's. Anything other than the "FAA way" is sort of an indication of a loose cannon. I mean you are professional, you are supposed to know how to do it RIGHT. The right way is commanded by the chief, and the chief has said "We do it the FAA way". It also gets ALL the pilots on the same page, so they don't argue about how to do it.

If you really want to make up your own entries....you're on your own! ATC doesnt much care so long as you hang out at the holding point. They've seen it wrong plenty...

 

[dtuuri]

• From the quote reply screen or the advanced reply screen, hit "manage attachments".
• Hit "choose file", pick the file or image you want to attach to your post, and hit "upload".
• Wait for it to upload then notice that there is a link (URL) in the manager attachments window for your upload under "current attachments".
• Do whatever you need to do to copy that link then close the manage attachment window.
• Add that URL to your post inside IMG tags. Don't worry about using the tag, if you use the image button on the control bar, it will add them for you.

Interesting. Thank you very much. When I copied the url from "Properties" (right clicked the link) it makles a thumbnail size. Simply copying the shortcut made a bigger image. Deleting the links from the post doesn't erase the attachment, see:

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

Dturri. Repost your drawing with direction of flight arrows on it. Your drawing can be interpreted two ways.

As a former DPE, I would think you would support the FAA recomended way of entering holds. About the only place we get holds in on checkrides and IPC's. Anything other than the "FAA way" is sort of an indication of a loose cannon. I mean you are professional, you are supposed to know how to do it RIGHT. The right way is commanded by the chief, and the chief has said "We do it the FAA way". It also gets ALL the pilots on the same page, so they don't argue about how to do it.

If you really want to make up your own entries....you're on your own! ATC doesnt much care so long as you hang out at the holding point. They've seen it wrong plenty...

Not sure I know what you want me to draw. If you flip through my tutorial above you'll see I fully support the official entry procedures.

dtuuri

 

[alfadog]

Interesting. Thank you very much. When I copied the url from "Properties" (right clicked the link) it makles a thumbnail size. Simply copying the shortcut made a bigger image. Deleting the links from the post doesn't erase the attachment, see:

dtuuri

This is what you will see in your post:

[NOPARSE]

[/NOPARSE]

 

[coloradobluesky]

The four possible holds at a FIX on a radial off a VOR (not at the VOR)

Click on the image thank you

 

[dtuuri]

The four possible holds at a FIX on a radial off a VOR (not at the VOR)

Click on the image thank you

Right. If you're commenting on my caution about using the word "radial" I mean this:

Both patterns are on the 360° radial, yet have very different entries. When using the common "pie trick" (see my tutorial above) for determining the entry, be sure not to think in terms of radials and use the outbound heading instead.

dtuuri

 

[midlifeflyer]

Im someone that thinks the pilot should make the FAA recommended entries. You only get holds on checkrides and IPC's anyway. Well maybe not. Other things will work, but there is only ONE indiputable right way. Carry on.

I agree with a lot of what you say with one possible exception.

If one looks at the three AIM entries from the perspective of a drawn holding instruction and the direction of flight toward the fix, they simply make sense from an efficiency and maneuvering standpoint. That probably why they were recommended in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised at all if, presented with a drawing and the general concept of the three entries, a bright 6th grader could not come up with the AIM-correct one.

Where we might disagree is on the "only ONE indisputable right way." I've see pilots agonize about where the 70 degree boundary between parallel and teardrop is located, concerned that being off by 5 or 10 degrees would make it wrong. That's completely ridiculous and makes no sense whether from a practical or checkpoint view.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something... What if you're holding at a DME fix on the 210 Radial? Is it not possible to have a 210 inbound, and be holding NE?

Perhaps I'm not understanding...

I think he's assuming a hold where the holding fix is the VOR itself. Kind of like how I was assuming the 120 heading in the OPwas the heading toward the VOR.

Yes, of course one can "hold northeast of 15 DME on the XYZ VOR 210 degree radial."

 

[dtuuri]

I've see pilots agonize about where the 70 degree boundary between parallel and teardrop is located, concerned that being off by 5 or 10 degrees would make it wrong. That's completely ridiculous and makes no sense whether from a practical or checkpoint view.

Of course! Reading a freehand scrawl with any degree of precision is impossible. The pie trick, though, is so easy and accurate that for many years the test standard allowed only a 5° tolerance. Your ball.

EDIT: Oh, btw, the 70° boundary line is between direct and either teardrop or parallel.

dtuuri

 

[luvflyin]

There are two possible legal holds at any given VOR radial.
Draw them with direction of flight and label with the ATC instructions.

There are four possible legal holds at any DME or Intersection on a radial.
Draw THEM and label with the ATC instructions.

Then you will know what is going on.

Once you understand that, you can learn entries. Learn the FAA recommended entry. That diagonal is always "into" the hold from the holding point at 20 degrees (GROAN). Other than that, its simple once you have the drawing. Work with it, youll get it

Good advice. Sit down and draw them all out. The "mental picture" will follow. Find an intersection. Even if the crossing radial is not a "route" that you'd likely get held on, do holding on that radial drawings also. You'll have 8 entries to study from one intersection. The OP is in San Diego, try CARIF. The angle off of JLI to V23 is close to to the 70 degree thing and you'll get a good feel for it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Of course! Reading a freehand scrawl with any degree of precision is impossible. The pie trick, though, is so easy and accurate that for many years the test standard allowed only a 5° tolerance. Your ball.

EDIT: Oh, btw, the 70° boundary line is between direct and either teardrop or parallel.

dtuuri

See how little I care about it?

Did the test standard really allow only a 5° tolerance at one time? I know the FAA has repeatedly told DPEs that the only criterion was remaining within protected airspace and may not fail an applicant for the choice on getting there, since at least 1994.

 

[dtuuri]

See how little I care about it?

Did the test standard really allow only a 5° tolerance at one time? I know the FAA has repeatedly told DPEs that the only criterion was remaining within protected airspace and may not fail an applicant for the choice on getting there, since at least 1994.

Not only did it back then, it's still the standard according to the AIM.

dtuuri

 

[coloradobluesky]

What is the time budget on figuring it out? How much time does ATC training say to give the pilot before the plane gets to the hold?

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Not quite "good"--you're "probably good" as long as you're in a putt-putt training plane and there's not a bunch of wind. The entries are "recommended" because the pattern templates that delineate protected airspace are based on the assumption the entries are flown. So, I say if anybody wants to do their own thing, like on a flight test, it would be fair game for the DPE to require proof, which would mean knowledge of the exact template used for the pattern in question. IMO, it takes more effort to avoid entering the right way than just doing it. Instead of drawing on a chart you can "draw" it on the DG with more precision, so I don't understand why everybody doesn't do that. Then you're covered no matter what you fly or how hard the wind blows.

dtuuri

The proof is basic math. The standard rate 90 degree turn radius is .5% x KTAS(or GS if you know it). The 1/2 standard rate 90 degree turn radius is 1% x KTAS(GS). For a 180 degree turn it is twice that of the 90 degree turn. Two planes going exactly the same speed arrive at a VOR, one on the holding course, one 90 degrees on the non holding side. Holding course plane makes a standard rate 180 degree turn. 90 degree off airplane makes the same direction turn at half standard rate...They both reach the same point in space on the holding side.

 

[bobmrg]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something... What if you're holding at a DME fix on the 210 Radial? Is it not possible to have a 210 inbound, and be holding NE?

Perhaps I'm not understanding...

Sure wish that I had the drawing skills that others in this post possess.

DME changes the rules. If the holding fix is a DME distance, you can certainly steer 210 to the fix and be northeast of it. Not true of a navaid or intersection.

I appreciate the input that you big-iron pilots bring to the discussion, but you just confuse those of us that do not fly in Class A airspace.

Bob Gardner

 

[dtuuri]

What is the time budget on figuring it out? How much time does ATC training say to give the pilot?

Zero time, AFAIK. You turn at the fix to either the outbound heading or the teardrop one, depending on your arrival heading at station passage. Why do you want time?

dtuuri

 

[coloradobluesky]

How much time does ATC give you between the holding instructions and the plane getting to the hold. That is the amount of time the pilot has to figure out where the hold is and how to enter it.

 

[dtuuri]

The proof is basic math.

If you have read the original order I posted you know there's more to it than...:

The standard rate 90 degree turn radius is .5% x KTAS(or GS if you know it). The 1/2 standard rate 90 degree turn radius is 1% x KTAS(GS). For a 180 degree turn it is twice that of the 90 degree turn. Two planes going exactly the same speed arrive at a VOR, one on the holding course, one 90 degrees on the non holding side. Holding course plane makes a standard rate 180 degree turn. 90 degree off airplane makes the same direction turn at half standard rate...They both reach the same point in space on the holding side.

...although that's a neat trick for spacing, the second plane is immediately starting to move outbound while the first one spends the same time moving in the opposite direction and finally returns to abeam the starting place at rollout. They might both roll out at the same time, but won't be at the same point in space on the outbound leg. Besides, the tightest holding pattern template allowable for use on an IAP is roughly the same size as a Category A procedure turn area, ie, very small ( I did a tutorial on that too ). Steaming into that space in a high performance jet with a hellish tailwind requires strict adherence to entry procedures, so why bother learning how to do sloppy work when the pie trick is easy and accurate?

dtuuri