two handed flare?

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kwc98

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kwc98
I might not be the strongest guy in the world, but the plane I am flying (172K) is not the easiest to rotate or flare. Yesterday I finally realized that I was just not back far enough on the yoke to really get us off the ground, not a great beginning to the lesson.

Does anyone use two hands to rotate and flare? I seldom if ever flare enough and now I realize that crap, I need to apply more strength than seems appropriate.

I do in fact eat Wheaties in the morning so it is not that! :)
-Ken
EDIT:
After getting feedback here, I paid close attention to the trim. That in fact was the problem.
 
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It would be easier if you had someone in the back seat or even a 20 or 30 pound backpack in the baggage compartment would help.
 
kwc98 said:
I might not be the strongest guy in the world, but the plane I am flying (172K) is not the easiest to rotate or flare. Yesterday I finally realized that I was just not back far enough on the yoke to really get us off the ground, not a great beginning to the lesson.

Does anyone use two hands to rotate and flare? I seldom if ever flare enough and now I realize that crap, I need to apply more strength than seems appropriate.
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Strength should rarely come into it if the plane is properly trimmed.

I suspect it's not. Maybe bring this up with your instructor.

Both hands on the yoke on takeoff means the throttle is not being covered, which it really should be.
 
A properly rigged, or even questionably rigged 172 shouldn't take the effort you seem to be describing. This assumes proper trim which might be worth a discussion. Beyond that, I would be a little concerned about a possible mx issue. I don't have a lot else to offer without knowing the exact situation, but you really should have one hand available for the throttle as was said above.
 
I've had a couple of students who are really really really......thin/no muscles who need two hands to rotate and flare. If the trim is set too aft for takeoff, you could enter a power on stall, and I try to teach to trim nose high for them in the flare so they're pushing forward on the yoke slightly entering the flare.

A Cessna, however, shouldn't be an issue. You're out of trim.
 
pilotx86 said:
I've had a couple of students who are really really really......thin/no muscles who need two hands to rotate and flare. If the trim is set too aft for takeoff, you could enter a power on stall, and I try to teach to trim nose high for them in the flare so they're pushing forward on the yoke slightly entering the flare.

A Cessna, however, shouldn't be an issue. You're out of trim.
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It is a little mysterious on pre-flight 'set trim to takeoff' to see the line on the wheel and the housing to know if it is set correctly. Should they line up considering that I am looking from above or should they line up if I was looking at them level. That may have been the problem.
 
Properly trimmed, there are very few airplanes that should require 2-hands in the flare.

There's also at least tw other potential problem if the airplane requires that much back pressure - (1) the amount of forward pressure you might need for a go-around and (2) the inability to use the throttle in the flare (as in a soft-field and other "cushioned" landing).
 
kwc98 said:
It is a little mysterious on pre-flight 'set trim to takeoff' to see the line on the wheel and the housing to know if it is set correctly. Should they line up considering that I am looking from above or should they line up if I was looking at them level. That may have been the problem.
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Um... the line on the wheel is the "neutral" position, not necessarily the "takeoff" position. If you look at the trim wheel from the pilot's position, lined-up is no elevator trim. Usually for a 172 I roll in 0.5-1.5 turns of up trim on takeoff depending on weight and it seems to like that.

see also this thread: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41056
 
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Are you trimming up for your landing? I trim all the way down the approach, reducing my airspeed until 1.1 Vso coming over the fence and control my descent with the throttle. I never have to work to flare any plane I fly, I just ease it in with a two finger pull.
 
My wife when flying the 182 has some difficulty with pulling during the flare. She trims it a bit more nose up than one would normally do to compensate. It's easier for her to push forward during the final approach.
 
...same here...my CFI was a trim-a-holic...so I trim for every power change on the approach. I fly a Piper but by the time she's ready to land all it requires is a few fingers and nary a pull to get a proper flare. And, I'd reckon that the 235 is a little more finicky than any 172 with the almost 500lb's of engine that I have sitting out in front of me. If you don't trim a 235 on the way in then it's like fighting a black marlin on short final.

Anyway, as others suggest, I'm pretty sure you have a trim problem - either not trimming enough or your airplane needs some attention.
 
Henning said:
Are you trimming up for your landing? I trim all the way down the approach, reducing my airspeed until 1.1 Vso coming over the fence and control my descent with the throttle. I never have to work to flare any plane I fly, I just ease it in with a two finger pull.
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Henning Sir, I've noticed on a few threads you are a strong advocate of trimming all the way
Down the approach, I wonder if you could actually describe your trimming technique for a typical approach and landing, I'm sure many students would benefit from a little more knowledge on the subject, I know from personal experience when I was training my CFI didn't really get into the subject of trimming apart from in cruise attitude of checking the trim position for take off.
 
Xscaliber said:
Henning Sir, I've noticed on a few threads you are a strong advocate of trimming all the way
Down the approach, I wonder if you could actually describe your trimming technique for a typical approach and landing, I'm sure many students would benefit from a little more knowledge on the subject, I know from personal experience when I was training my CFI didn't really get into the subject of trimming apart from in cruise attitude of checking the trim position for take off.
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Jumping in while Henning marshals his thoughts: you trim for an airspeed. If you decide that 65 is the right speed on final, establish that speed with your left hand and trim off all pressure with your right hand. You should be able to remove your hand from the yoke at any time without the airspeed varying even a little bit. Read up on trim speed...it is an interesting subject.

Bob Gardner
 
I also found that I had a hard time with the flare and would often not hold off the ground quite long enough. My instructor discouraged trimming once we were past the approach. He was concerned that trimming to the point where we were trimmed in the flare would make the risk of a stall much higher in the event of a go-around - especially since our 172M required quite a bit of force to keep the nose down when it was at full flaps during a go-around. He said that this model seemed to really want to nose-up a bit more than a typical 172, though I can't personally vouch for that one way or another.

I guess in the big scheme of things I'd rather deal with a tire problem or prop strike than with a stall on go-around...
 
rich0 said:
I also found that I had a hard time with the flare and would often not hold off the ground quite long enough. My instructor discouraged trimming once we were past the approach. He was concerned that trimming to the point where we were trimmed in the flare would make the risk of a stall much higher in the event of a go-around - especially since our 172M required quite a bit of force to keep the nose down when it was at full flaps during a go-around. He said that this model seemed to really want to nose-up a bit more than a typical 172, though I can't personally vouch for that one way or another.

I guess in the big scheme of things I'd rather deal with a tire problem or prop strike than with a stall on go-around...
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You should't have to deal with either. I'd rather trim for the proper airspeed to make the landing easier and anticipate that I will have to push forward momentarily to create the correct pitch attitude on a go-around (see Bob's comment about trimming for airspeed).
 
pilotx86 said:
I've had a couple of students who are really really really......thin/no muscles who need two hands to rotate and flare. If the trim is set too aft for takeoff, you could enter a power on stall, and I try to teach to trim nose high for them in the flare so they're pushing forward on the yoke slightly entering the flare.

A Cessna, however, shouldn't be an issue. You're out of trim.
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:confused: if you're teaching that as a method to counter a lack of strength, what is the plan for a last minute go around? An elevator trim induced stall?
 
I have found plenty of 172s out of rig. Trim, rudder, ailerons, elevators, everything. The older they get the worse they are, as some mechanics don't read the maintenance manuals.

The 172s elevator trim system rigging procedure is a bit obscure, and the OP's airplane is probably considerably off and is probably trimmed nose-down when the pointer is at the takeoff position.

Dan
 
GCA319 said:
:confused: if you're teaching that as a method to counter a lack of strength, what is the plan for a last minute go around? An elevator trim induced stall?
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Unless you have full up trim, full power, and NO forward push on the yoke, a in-envelope 172 will not stall from trim alone.
 
Lets be honest, it's a 172...

Even with the trim incorrect you should be able to rotate and flare with one hand.

Dude, eat some steak and do some push-ups.
 
Xscaliber said:
Henning Sir, I've noticed on a few threads you are a strong advocate of trimming all the way
Down the approach, I wonder if you could actually describe your trimming technique for a typical approach and landing, I'm sure many students would benefit from a little more knowledge on the subject, I know from personal experience when I was training my CFI didn't really get into the subject of trimming apart from in cruise attitude of checking the trim position for take off.
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I just basically add a 'lick of trim, and let it settle, add another flick let it settle, add another, let it settle... gauging my deceleration against closing rate with the runway so I end up at 1.1-1.2Vso coming over the fence. Remember, trim regulates your speed, throttle regulates your descent.

That's really why I think CFI should not be your 'first job' in flying, you don't really learn the finesse of trimming until you have your first job or have been flying for a couple hundred hours outside the training environment, therefore the majority of instructors don't KNOW how to optimize the use of trim therefore we have this self perpetuating cycle of pilots who never get taught trim, and most people are not energy conscious and confident enough to experiment and figure it out for themselves for a while.
 
Has anyone here tried to induce a trim induced stall? Try it at altitude next time, see what happens.
 
Henning said:
Has anyone here tried to induce a trim induced stall? Try it at altitude next time, see what happens.
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Yep, in a turbo arrow

Also isn't it part of the CFI requirments?
 
warthog1984 said:
Yup, 172 sp with 2 onboard. Couldn't get it to stall unless full power and trim against the stop with no yoke pressure.
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Not a bit hard to control is it?;) plus you punch the throttle in and reach down to roll out some trim and you can easily do it before you pick up enough speed to start pitching the nose up to 'scary attitudes'. It's really nothing to deal with.
 
Like others have said, use the trim wheel. You shouldn't need to "muscle" the plane. Everytime you make a power change, your hand should immediately move to the trim wheel.
 
kwc98 said:
Does anyone use two hands to rotate and flare?
-Ken
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You don't "rotate" a 172. It will fly off by itself when it is trimmed and ready.

Vr is a swept wing jet term, never mentioned in the Cessna 172 POH.

At best, they mention a "lift off" speed, but the airplane lifts off with the slight amount of back pressure the pilot has been holding during most of the takeoff roll. It's finesse not muscle.
 
kgruber said:
You don't "rotate" a 172. It will fly off by itself when it is trimmed and ready.
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Except OP is setting elevator trim to neutral instead of dialing in appropriate takeoff trim. If you have an untrimmed 172 or Cherokee, it does take a noticeable tug to lift the wing into the flying attitude.
 
kgruber said:
It's finesse not muscle.
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LOL. I am a motorcycle instructor. I use this same comment with my motorcycle students. I tell them that motorcycles respond much better to finesse than to brute force. If they are ever having to muscle the machine or bang on it (like when they are trying to shift) they are doing something wrong.

Even picking the machine up after a drop is easy, with correct technique.
 
jordane93 said:
Like others have said, use the trim wheel. You shouldn't need to "muscle" the plane. Everytime you make a power change, your hand should immediately move to the trim wheel.
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Not quite, every time you make a speed change you retrim. You trim for speed, use power to control descent. If you are trimmed for 65kts, the plane will fly 65kts regardless of power setting from full throttle to glide. That's why you use the throttle and power to increase or decrease the angle of approach rather than the yoke and pitch. If you try to fly it down final using the yoke, unless you are on the money at entry to final, you will have an unstable approach.
 
GCA319 said:
:confused: if you're teaching that as a method to counter a lack of strength, what is the plan for a last minute go around? An elevator trim induced stall?
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In a 172? It's easier to push the yoke forward than pull it back. My plan is to not have someone bend a firewall and strike a prop.

Not to mention, a part of the go around is to start trimming nose down anyway, it would take a hell of a lot of trim to induce a trim stall in a trainer.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Properly trimmed, there are very few airplanes that should require 2-hands in the flare.
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Are there any?

I've flown DC-3s which most would describe as heavy controls, and you sure don't need two hands to flare.

Now we do use two hands to rotate, but that has nothing to do with strength.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Are there any?

I've flown DC-3s which most would describe as heavy controls, and you sure don't need two hands to flare.

Now we do use two hands to rotate, but that has nothing to do with strength.
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Interesting, why the two handed procedure in the DC-3? Does that mean PNF is handling the engines?
 
Henning said:
Interesting, why the two handed procedure in the DC-3? Does that mean PNF is handling the engines?
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It's done so that after v1 if you have an engine fail, you won't be tempted to retard the power and stop on the remaining runway.

It's industry standard in transport aircraft. It's also really tempting to want to pull the power back and stop on remaining runway. The problem is, maybe you do have enough runway to stop, and you may be a hero, but that one day when you have a wet runway or you're way past V1 and try to stop, you'll be crucified by the aviation powers that be.
 
Henning said:
Interesting, why the two handed procedure in the DC-3? Does that mean PNF is handling the engines?
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In a jet, one removes their hand from the throttle at v1. I assume this would be the same in a DC-3 or other similarly large aircraft. Right?
 
DesertNomad said:
In a jet, one removes their hand from the throttle at v1. I assume this would be the same in a DC-3 or other similarly large aircraft. Right?
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Right.

Attempting to abort after V1 is "no bueno" as they say in the barrio. As everyone has been saying, you trim for an airspeed. If it's taking two hands to flare, you're not doing it right. Actually, if you're trimming correctly, you should be able to remove your hands from the yoke at anytime and the airplane should just stay put. I'm not saying that you should fly the airplane using trim, but you will be making plenty of trim inputs if you're doing it correctly.
 
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