Twin recommendation

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Davidl13, Dec 3, 2019 at 10:55 PM.

  1. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    I would like to get some significant twin time, if I were to purchase a twin for training purposes, with the idea of selling it after I use it for a year of training with the goal of breaking even when I was done ( less consumables), what plane (make model years) do you think would be good one for this mission?

    thanks in advance
     
  2. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Beech Travel Air
    Piper Seminole

    Perhaps a Beech B55
     
  3. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Cleared for Takeoff

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    Seems the Seminole is the defacto twin-trainer with what I see around AZ.

    It's the C172 of the twin world.
     
  4. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Cleared for Takeoff

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    For intended time-building values of 50 hours or more, none will do this without near powerball-winning levels of luck. :D
     
  5. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    I don't know why you would think that?

    Prices of twins are pretty beaten down, and have been in the decade+ since oil hit $150/bbl. Barring an OPEC oil embargo that skyrockets the price of crude (and avgas, which would likely further hammer twin piston aircraft) the prospects of losing even more money on a twin from current ridiculously cheap levels seems a tolerable risk for the time it takes to get a multi-engine IFR.
     
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  6. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Cleared for Takeoff

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    Hmm.

    Breaking even on the purchase and flying for the cost of gas/oil alone, I think is nigh impossible. That's how I read OP, but now you have me doubting. :D

    Breaking even vs. renting for $350/hr or whatever twins go for these days, I agree 100%, nearly impossible not to win in that scenario.


    I may be assuming something that OP didn't intend. I'm used to the old 'buy a 172, sell it next year for 10k profit, get free PPL" nonsense, and imagined this being the same idea.
     
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  7. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    The OP specifically excluded "consumables" (which I would take to include not just fuel & oil, but also tie-down, insurance and other predictable non-recoverable costs). So I was just looking at it from a capital cost of entry vs orderly liquidation value post multi-IFR.

    It is by no means risk-free. A new cylinder or two, overhaul/replacing any of the accessories (prop governor, vacuum pump, alternators, gear motor...), or countless other things can kill the budget. But the exposure time for a multi-IFR is pretty limited, and owning your own plane means one should be able to power through the ratings quickly without having to fight for time on a rental trainer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM
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  8. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    GRG55 is tracking with my intent.. plus as owner, I will know how it has been flow and left the day before... some added value.. with some added effort.
     
  9. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    At one time an Apache would be the obvious answer but they have skyrocketed in value. Older 310's are a really good buy right now but will burn a lot of gas unless you are disciplined enough to bring the power back. They are big airplanes though so wear items could be expensive. I would probably lean towards a Beechraft Travel Air. The engines have a proven positive track record, the air frame is stout and isn't too hard to find parts for. Consumables will be on the lower end of the twin market and should a major maintenance item come up like engine work you will have fewer cylinders to pay for.
     
  10. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    Upon first glance at the piper Seminole, specs say single engine use is limited to 4000’.. is that AGL or MSL? I live at 5000’ msl... hmmm
     
  11. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    It is density altitude.

    Good luck on your quest. I would personally suggest just renting and being done with it. Around here the cheapest local twin is $250/hr. So if you want 50 hrs, that's $12,500. Good luck buying, storing, insuring and feeding a twin for that price 1 year (with 50 hours fuel/oil, etc)
     
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  12. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    Note that the twins schools are wanting to buy, are not going to perform well single engine out of a 5k MSL airport.
     
  13. farangutan

    farangutan Filing Flight Plan

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    This could be a good deal if you partner up with a couple of other multi-students. More hassle, but just a thought.
     
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  14. WDD

    WDD Pre-Flight

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    Don't forget to factor in either the interest on the loan and/or the lost return on investment you would have potentially gotten if the money was sitting in an index fund for a year vs tied up in the airplane (on the amount of cash you're putting up front for the plane buy).

    And don't forget the transaction costs -not only any title, sales, and property costs, but also any potential broker costs, loan origination fees, etc.

    And.... you can always negotiate the rental costs. If you went in and guaranteed a certain amount of hours in the next 12 months, you could probably get a better rate.
     
  15. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    I have yet to meet a flight school that operates at a high level of integrity.. if you know of one, let me know
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 7:40 AM
  16. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    this might be a really practical answer.. private instructor (not a school), 2+ students... perhaps as students graduate, they can sell their shares to the next student in line..

    the instructor can manage the aircraft and get value for themselves out of it by having a plane to gain instructor hours in and a management fee...

    finding an instructor that wants to be an instructor for years may be tricky, seems like instructors are in it to get to somewhere else in their career path
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 7:42 AM
  17. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    @Davidl13 : Two things I suggest you confirm for this trade study (rent-vs-own) are:
    1. Confirm the availability of a rental twin in your area. From what I have seen, many flight schools will gladly train you for the AMEL rating in their twin, but not rent that same aircraft to you for solo flight. Very different from single engine airplanes. So make sure this option is real - you wouldn't be the first time-builder to buy a twin just because there wasn't one they could rent.
    2. Work with a broker to get insurance quotes for a few different twin types before you search for one to buy. You'll want to understand the cost of insurance, as well as the requirements they will have before you can fly solo (e.g. x number of hours with an instructor in make and model).
    One other thing to consider should the results (rent-vs-own) be close or a tie: You'll probably have a lot more fun with your own aircraft. You can take it on long trips, not worrying about minimum rental requirement etc. And you'll also learn a lot more from managing the ownership and maintenance duties that come with owning an aircraft (and, of course, spend a lot of time on it, too).

    - Martin
     
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  18. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    You are right, even a tie is a win
     
  19. genna

    genna Cleared for Takeoff

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    Without partnership, I don't think the math of buying a twin for a year(and 50hours or so) is going to come even close to renting one. Pre-buy/annual, purchase costs, taxes/fees, loan interest(or opportunity cost), insurance, tie-down, fuel/oil, repairs, sale costs. All that combined is going to be a lot more than renting. And that is not even taking risk into account.

    On top of things, if you want something you can sell quickly, you have to buy a plane that schools want. That means it's already somewhat overpriced.

    Basically, you'd need a lot of luck.

    Now, if you want to own one for other reasons(availability, ability to travel, etc), the math may not matter as much.
     
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  20. ArnoldPalmer

    ArnoldPalmer Pre-takeoff checklist

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  21. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

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    [QUOTE="GRG55, post: 2838581, member: 27319”]and owning your own plane means one should be able to power through the ratings quickly without having to fight for time on a rental trainer.[/QUOTE]

    Between my own experience and many others I’ve either taught to fly or observed, I’ve found this to be a fallacy. More often than not it takes longer due to airplane troubles or any number of reasons.

    While twins, tailwheels, and float planes are harder to rent I still think it is best to do so to when building time toward more lofty goals. If there are problems you can just toss the keys back to the owner and tell them to call you when it is fixed. Learning the responsibilities of being an owner while trying to obtain flight experience on a compressed schedule doesn’t work well.

    The last airline bound guy I worked with bought a POS Arrow right after getting his private certificate. He earned his private in 2.5 weeks. It took 1.5 years for him to earn an instrument rating and build enough time to get to commercial minimums. The airplane was always in the shop (some of it was for a poorly planned radio upgrade) and he wouldn’t rent anything to continue training because it would have been a financial burden to him. The flight school airplanes had plenty of availability and weren’t broken, so with some effort he could have easily gotten all his certificates and ratings in the same amount of time.

    I am aware that there are exceptions to the rule and sometimes it works out ok to be an owner on a fast track but more often than not it doesn’t seem to go as planned.
     
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  22. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    Lots of good and valid points.. toss keys back on repairs, cost of purchase-ownership-sale-insurance etc..

    I’m working on my instrument training in a plane (P210N) I own and plan on keeping ... for the foreseeable future.. as my travel plane for me and my family...

    the twin would be used to build skills and hours in twins, toward a commercial rating.. for skills and the ticket... I doubt I will act as a commercial pilot.. probably not in the cards for me..

    I have not done the math, but my gut says, sharing a twin for this purpose may be a good way to go... and maybe simply renting will be what I end up
    Doing... it is the easiest and you pay for the convenience.. and may be worth the fees... we shall see... my decision point will be in the spring summer 2020
     
  23. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    If you are only planing on keeping it for 50-200 hours, this is not a good idea. If you subtract out gas, oil, tiedown/hangar, insurance, money aside for wear items, and annual cost, you are really only paying maybe 100 per hour to rent a twin if not less. If your goal is ATP mins that means you are only paying about 5-6k for the use of a twin and no gamble what so ever. That's the equivalent of 1-2 bad cylinders, one over hauled prop, one picky annual inspection. Now if you are talking 3-500 hours then it really starts to make sense or if time is more important than money.
     
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  24. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Piper used to make a turbocharged version of the Seminole. But I think you should avoid that sort of complication. The numbers normally quoted for single engine service ceiling in any piston twin are at gross weight. Weight plays a huge role in the actual ceiling (the POH should have a table or chart showing that). I highly doubt you'll be training at gross weight, so the 4000 ft number many not be applicable in your situation as much as you think it is.

    If you plan to keep and use the airplane beyond a training role, at the altitude you are at you need to either look for an airplane with turbochargers (like a Seneca II) or one with a much higher gross that you can fly light (I'm at 4000 ASL and fly an Aztec for that reason)
     
  25. kayoh190

    kayoh190 En-Route PoA Supporter

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  26. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    Can I ask why you want 50 twin hours? Why not just do the SEL commercial and do 10-15hrs multi as an add on? I say this because you don't have a plan to use it.
     
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  27. Flybuddy

    Flybuddy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Twin recommendation - here you go

    3-Karissa and Kristina Shannon.jpg
     
  28. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    i don’t have good answer to your good question.. what are the limitations of SEL commercial with a multi vs Multi commercial?

    on first glance, 10-15hrs is not long enough to get good at anything... and I am interested more so in skills than ratings
     
  29. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    If you go into multi training with your commercial SEL with instrument rating, most come out with their Commercial MEL with instrument rating. That's why the usual course of licensing is PPL, IFR, Comm, Multi.
     
  30. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    well that is the order I am going.. so no change there... Will have IFR in spring... I think commercial and multi will help with insurance
     
  31. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

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    It didn't change mine what so ever.
     
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  32. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    More multi time may cheapen your insurance for your multi engine, but it won't impact your SEL insurance...
     
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  33. Kristin

    Kristin Cleared for Takeoff

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    Rent! The risks are too high and the costs not likely to allow you to come out of it better than renting. You can expect $3-4K for insurance, perhaps more. You are likely to end up with an annual inspection in there. If you buy wrong you could get socked with a $20K annual inspection and repairs. If you don't, it is probably because you spent $2,000 or so on a competent pre-purchase inspection. There there is the risk of something expensive breaking during the time you own the plane. For just 50 hours of multi time, this makes little sense. Just the annual and a pre-purchase inspection which is only amortized over 50 hours, will add $100 an hour to your cost of operation. That is to say nothing of the interest/opportunity cost, hangar/tie down fees, etc.

    I would go to the FBO with the plane I wanted to fly and offer to purchase blocks of time and see what sort of a discount you can get.
     
  34. Martin Pauly

    Martin Pauly Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Good to know. In that case, I doubt the 50 hours of AMEL time will yield much return on investment. Get the rating if you like - certainly a good learning opportunity - but after that, if your goal is to become a better single-engine pilot, there are better ways to spend that time and money than to build multi time. I would defer that until such a time when a multi-engine aircraft is actually in your future to fly regularly.

    - Martin
     
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  35. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    The answer to all things twin is Aerostar, right? LOL
     
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  36. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Cleared for Takeoff

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    This line has me changing my vote (again :D ) -- you don't want to own a twin yet, even fleetingly. You can get your ME in a weekend course, and there is no benefit to building time, other than 1. personal gratification and skill-building (and I salute you for seeking that), or 2. meeting some job minimums (which you don't appear to be on track for)

    I definitely think you should do the ME course after your IFR. I did. It's great fun to combine the intellectual and the stick-and-rudder flying into one single contraption trying to kill you unless you tame it :D Then you can decide to join those who "got bit by the twin bug" if you like.


    One other option you might consider as an "in-between" is a 100-hour block "dry lease" where you basically just rent the plane from an owner who is not seeing sufficient use. They hold the equity and the major component-failure risk, you pay in a dry rate to compensate him for the wear and tear you're inducing, and chances are good you'll get a better aircraft for same or a bit less money than the typical FBO trainer.
     
  37. Davidl13

    Davidl13 Pre-Flight

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    1. As to the Aerostar comment.. in the want category.. in the Re-sale.. not so much

    2. I want a solid 100-200 hrs... no one ever became minimally competent at anything in a weekend.. not a chance.. IMHO
     
  38. genna

    genna Cleared for Takeoff

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    The thing is, you will get competent in 100-200h. Probably less. It's irrelevant if you sell the plane and not fly a twin again for a few months or a few years. These things tend to kill non-proficient pilots. Especially ones that fly SE a lot(different ingrained emergency procedures). So you will then have to do it again when you actually want to fly a twin after selling your plane. Might as well do it when you actually need it. Getting fully competent in a twin and then stopping flying a twin for a while kind of defeats the purpose other than "I did it"
     
  39. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Can’t go wrong with a beech travelair. Had 800 hrs in the one I sold.
     
  40. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Let’s be real here: twins are expensive.

    The vast majority of multi engine pilots got their ME ratings because they wanted to fly professionally. Unless you are one of the few of us who just prefers to fly twins for pleasure, your objective is to get hired and build the experience while someone else is paying you.

    In the current pilot market, you pay out of your own pocket to meet the required time and then build your experience from there.
     
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