Transporters are Death Machines?

cowman said:
I had always understood it to be matter converted to energy and reassembled in another location, not copying.

Stepping outside of Star Trek universe though has anyone read Pandora's Star and the others in the same series by Peter F Hamilton? Great read for Sci-Fi lovers but looooong...

Anyway in this universe people upload backups of their conscious mind to(basically) the internet and if they die(called "body loss") they clone a new body for them and upload the backup. This also has the effect of making everyone essentially immortal... and allowing for you to have custom bodies of whatever size/shape/race/gender made for you.

I find that an interesting conundrum relating to this... if we copied my mind to another body and the current one died, is the consciousness typing this now gone? One would assume so, but this current instance of me would not know. The new instance of me, wouldn't know either as he'd have all the memories of the previous me.
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Moving energy is one thing. But humans are made out of matter...atoms. Lots of hydrogen and oxygen, a dash of iron and magnesium on a carbon frame.

It stands to reason that if you could scan my body at the atomic scale and recreate it elsewhere with an exact copy atom for atom, you'd be successful in making an exact copy complete with memories and feelings and emotion and such.

The real question is where is the self? If I chop off your thumb YOU are still there...mad at the loss of your thumb. So, you are not your thumb. Arm? Leg? Brain? Frontal lobe? Where exactly are YOU?
 
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Witmo said:
Star Gates seem to be more feasible than transporters for moving humans. Not as convenient as transporters since you have to have a gate on both ends but you're only manipulating space/time not copying, destroying the original and reconstituting matter based on info sent. Seems too easy for the info to get corrupted in the process and what about "consciousness"? How does one copy the info stored in neurons?
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The information transportation is the easy part, it's stripping the quantum information from the quantum particles and picking the exact location to put the information back into play that is tricky. Once free from matter, the information is everywhere and when simultaneously. At least at first it will require a pad/gate at both ends. Not a big problem because we will already have large ring world structures carrying mankind away from here before we develope that knowledge and technology. Initially it would be used used to link the colony ships together and to Earth, serving as a round robin of lifeboats for each other.
 
Captain said:
It stands to reason that if you could scan my body at the atomic scale and recreate it elsewhere with an exact copy atom for atom, you'd be successful in making an exact copy complete with memories and feelings and emotion and such.
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A big "if". Mr. Heisenberg and his frustrating Uncertainty Principle renders such an exact copy impossible, due to the very laws of physics.

The real question is where is the self? If I chop off your thumb YOU are still there...mad at the loss of your thumb. So, you are not your thumb. Arm? Leg? Brain? Frontal lobe? Where exactly are YOU?
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Deep questions to ponder. Imagine you had slowly progressing brain cancer. Future technology permitted replacing damaged portions with silicon microchips. After each operation, you felt roughly the same. Over time and multiple operations, every bit of organic brain matter was gradually replaced by microchips. My guess is that "self" would remain intact.

But it's just a guess.
 
FastEddieB said:
A big "if". Mr. Heisenberg and his frustrating Uncertainty Principle renders such an exact copy impossible, due to the very laws of physics.



Deep questions to ponder. Imagine you had slowly progressing brain cancer. Future technology permitted replacing damaged portions with silicon microchips. After each operation, you felt roughly the same. Over time and multiple operations, every bit of organic brain matter was gradually replaced by microchips. My guess is that "self" would remain intact.

But it's just a guess.
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It's true. Brain cells do not last forever. Over 20 years or so every single cell in your body is new...yet YOU remain.
 
Captain said:
It's true. Brain cells do not last forever. Over 20 years or so every single cell in your body is new...yet YOU remain.
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Reminds me of the (probably) apocryphal story of the fellow selling the actual axe that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree. With the disclaimer that it was on its fifth handle and third axe head! :wink2:
 
This is above my pay grade.

The old Asian scientist on one of the universe series said to transport a human like on Star Trek would take practically all the energy in the universe to do it.

I'm waiting for the triple X version of the holodeck. :lol:
 
Captain said:
It's true. Brain cells do not last forever. Over 20 years or so every single cell in your body is new...yet YOU remain.
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I had to google your assertion as I had always been taught that this was not true for brain cells. It appears that you are right, at least partially.

WebMD said:
March 6, 2000 (Boston) -- Here's hope for those who fear they lost too many brain cells to youthful dissipation: Researchers at Cornell University have demonstrated that cells from an area of the brain essential for learning and memory can regenerate in a laboratory dish. In the future, the discovery might lead to strategies for replacing brain cells lost to diseases such as Alzheimer's.

Until recently, conventional medical wisdom held that we are born with all the brain cells, or neurons, that we'll ever have and when they're gone, they're gone for good. Over the last few years, though, researchers have shown that in at least one area of the brain, a region known as the hippocampus, there is continual turnover of cells throughout most of our lives.
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I learned something new today! I just hope it made it to my hippocampus.
 
txflyer said:
This is above my pay grade.

The old Asian scientist on one of the universe series said to transport a human like on Star Trek would take practically all the energy in the universe to do it.

I'm waiting for the triple X version of the holodeck. :lol:
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Just build the holodeck....I'll take care of the triple X part!
;)
 
FastEddieB said:
Reminds me of the (probably) apocryphal story of the fellow selling the actual axe that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree. With the disclaimer that it was on its fifth handle and third axe head! :wink2:
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+1, Like, :thumbsup:
 
FastEddieB said:
A big "if". Mr. Heisenberg and his frustrating Uncertainty Principle renders such an exact copy impossible, due to the very laws of physics.



Deep questions to ponder. Imagine you had slowly progressing brain cancer. Future technology permitted replacing damaged portions with silicon microchips. After each operation, you felt roughly the same. Over time and multiple operations, every bit of organic brain matter was gradually replaced by microchips. My guess is that "self" would remain intact.

But it's just a guess.
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Exactly, you don't 'copy' anything, you liberate the original information package from its mass, then reapply that information to dark matter elsewhere to reform into matter. The information transfers instantly, original, and intact. The trick is identifying the data package, and that is where DNA comes in.
 
Henning said:
Exactly, you don't 'copy' anything, you liberate the original information package from its mass, then reapply that information to dark matter elsewhere to reform into matter. The information transfers instantly, original, and intact. The trick is identifying the data package, and that is where DNA comes in.
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How do you talk with such authority about subjects the worlds leading physicists speculate about?
 
FastEddieB said:
A big "if". Mr. Heisenberg and his frustrating Uncertainty Principle renders such an exact copy impossible, due to the very laws of physics...
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...based on what we currently believe to be "law." That could all change in the next 5, 10, 50 years.
 
I wonder why this thread spawned so many transporter threads. My guess is the concept fascinates us. I still think the OP here poses a very intriguing question...
 
Since 100% is basically impossible wouldn't the subsequent copies slowly degrade?

Even if the quality was 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
that's still not a perfect 100% So I wonder if the Star Trek universe has an upper limit on the number of "safe" transports a person may make in their lifetime.
 
ARFlyer said:
Since 100% is basically impossible wouldn't the subsequent copies slowly degrade?

Even if the quality was 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
that's still not a perfect 100% So I wonder if the Star Trek universe has an upper limit on the number of "safe" transports a person may make in their lifetime.
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Great question!
 
ARFlyer said:
Since 100% is basically impossible wouldn't the subsequent copies slowly degrade?

Even if the quality was 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
that's still not a perfect 100% So I wonder if the Star Trek universe has an upper limit on the number of "safe" transports a person may make in their lifetime.
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As long as the checksum is good, you're OK.

What if you get reassembled from a corrupted file, are conscious and aware, and notice your arms are where your legs should be? Would the corrupted output, you, be deleted and a new one sent?
 
Jaybird180 said:
The multi-plex pattern buffer solved those problems
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/transporter-psychosis
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Symptoms and manifestations of the disorder experienced by victims included paranoid delusions, multi-infarct dementia, tactile and visual hallucinations, and psychogenic hysteria. - See more at: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/transporter-psychosis#sthash.e2Nz8Hif.dpuf
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Oh... so some of you have been using transporters!

:rofl:
 
Captain said:
How do you talk with such authority about subjects the worlds leading physicists speculate about?
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I do not subject myself to the same dogmatic limitations on though as they do. Where they deny themselves the direction their evidence leads, I do not. I have no preconceived limitation on the boundaries or limitations of intelligence. The dogma of academia is no less evil than the dogma of religion. If you refuse to go to where the evidence leads you, you will never find the path to the truth. Therefore I see connections they do not.
 
This a good time to introduce the Harry Potter Floo network into the conversation?

Seems to be a messy, but good, way to travel. I'd do it.
 
RalphInCA said:
This a good time to introduce the Harry Potter Floo network into the conversation?

Seems to be a messy, but good, way to travel. I'd do it.
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I'm more of a Portkey kind of guy. Nothing like traveling via an old work boot!

Matthew said:
As long as the checksum is good, you're OK.

What if you get reassembled from a corrupted file, are conscious and aware, and notice your arms are where your legs should be? Would the corrupted output, you, be deleted and a new one sent?
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Well then I say that file would be erased and reset. So if you just delete the corrupted file and resend for the original version everything works out. You would have no knowledge of the incident. All you would know is that you went from A to B.

Only that copy would have realized what was happening. Is it murder or selfless help?
 
ARFlyer said:
I'm more of a Portkey kind of guy. Nothing like traveling via an old work boot!



Well then I say that file would be erased and reset. So if you just delete the corrupted file and resend for the original version everything works out. You would have no knowledge of the incident. All you would know is that you went from A to B.

Only that copy would have realized what was happening. Is it murder or selfless help?
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What if the file transfer timed out? Not so bad if Seven of Nine arrives and that outfit of hers doesn't. But if a few of Spock's internal organs never complete the transfer things don't work out so well. They must have a pretty good error correcting algorithm.
 
Matthew said:
What if the file transfer timed out? Not so bad if Seven of Nine arrives and that outfit of hers doesn't. But if a few of Spock's internal organs never complete the transfer things don't work out so well. They must have a pretty good error correcting algorithm.
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I'd like to see the system that kept Scotty error free from the A model days to be found by Picard.
 
Every person who's ever had to pull the plug on modern "life" support machines has had to think about what "life" really is.

No fancy high tech Star Trek transporter required.

All you need to ponder the depths of this question is a respirator breathing for someone.
 
denverpilot said:
Every person who's ever had to pull the plug on modern "life" support machines has had to think about what "life" really is.

No fancy high tech Star Trek transporter required.

All you need to ponder the depths of this question is a respirator breathing for someone.
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Nate you just killed the thread like my ex girlfriend. :mad2: :rofl:

It's no fun to think about the real world morals.
 
No kidding.

Besides, the thread is about a human self. Can it be moved and where is it? My sense is its an illusion and we operate as a collection of memories governed / strongly influenced by subconscious needs and desires.
 
This is now how I understand canon transporters to work. You are not copied and destroyed, your atoms are literally relocated and reassembled.
 
How exactly is relocated and reassembled different from copied? We've already established that all the physical stuff in your body gets replaced over time. Yet YOU are still in there somewhere despite all new material.
 
My C is a bit rusty but...

Code: 
int transporter()
{
  pid_t pid = fork();
  
  if (pid > 0) then
    exit();
  else 
  printf("I have arrived on the planet surface");
}
 
Let us also remember that their computers are not binary like ours (on: off). So the particles of matter are transmitted on a stream of light called a transporter beam.
 
Captain said:
Year 2050. Star Trek style transporters have been around for a decade now and human transports are common. You have your first trip / transport scheduled today.

...

Where is the self and can it be relocated?
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Here is one for you. Spiritually, you are attached to both meat manifestations. When one is "killed", you manifest solely in the remaining with a nasty case of PTSD.
 
alfadog said:
Here is one for you. Spiritually, you are attached to both meat manifestations. When one is "killed", you manifest solely in the remaining with a nasty case of PTSD.
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Google "Split Brain". Some very interesting things happen if you sever the corpus callosum. It's a super highway of neurons connecting the left and right hemispheres of the brain.

When severed you end up with two minds in one body and sometimes they conflict with each other. There's a story of a man who shook his wife violently with his left hand only to rescue her with his right by grabbing his left arm. And there are many similar stories of this kind. (I wonder what the religious would say happens when one believes and the other denies God. Heaven or hell? ...but I digress)

So, if two minds can be in a single body perhaps is not out of the question for a single mind to be in two bodies. Personally, if you made a carbon copy of me, atom for atom, I'd think there would be two of me but unaware of the other except in each other's presence...but who knows.
 
I suffer from split brain. One half wants to spend all of my money on flying. The other half thinks I should pay bills first.
 
Captain said:
How exactly is relocated and reassembled different from copied? We've already established that all the physical stuff in your body gets replaced over time. Yet YOU are still in there somewhere despite all new material.
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If you take a photograph and move it to another room, you have not copied it. It is the original photograph.
 
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