Transporters are Death Machines?

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by Captain, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

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    Year 2050. Star Trek style transporters have been around for a decade now and human transports are common. You have your first trip / transport scheduled today.

    It's just like you see on Star Trek. You stand on the pad, the operator throws some switches and atom by atom you are disassembled here and reassembled there...an exact copy, atom for atom. When you arrive there you know who you are, know what business your on and remember going to the transport facility.

    All your friends who have done it before appear to be fine. Not one single ill effect.


    Now, today is your big day. You show up and stand on the pad. The operator throws some switches and your body is scanned. But nothing happens and you ask the operator why. He says everyone asks that and explains its for safety.

    "You see, we wait here until the copy is made there so if there's anything that goes wrong we can stop it. Once the copy is confirmed there only then do we disassemble you. Oh look, it's done." and he pushes a button that scatters every atom of your body.

    Does this shift of a few minutes make it murder? Or was it always murder? Did we watch Captain Kirk and his away team get killed over and and over year after year?

    Where is the self and can it be relocated?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
  2. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Insert a myriad of Bones quotes...
     
  3. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Whoa, they can make copies? What is to stop them from making 5 of me and putting me to hard labor all day long. Wait just a minute......
     
  4. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    The paradox deepens when you ask, "What if they chose not to dissemble the copy being transported?"

    Which one would your consciousness follow? Both?

    I read a book called "The Physics of Star Trek". Good read.

    I recall it rated teleportation as very close to fundamentally impossible, due to restraints at the quantum level and the limits imposed by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

    Then again, best to remember Clarke's First Law:

    "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."
     
  5. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You miss the episode where Riker was duplicated?
    (Well, the duplicate was actually found in the episode)
     
  6. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Your topic seems to drive at this question: "Where is the soul of man?".
     
  7. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    That makes an unwarranted assumption: that there is a soul.

    To keep this out of the realm of religion, perhaps the word "self" is more neutral than "soul".
     
  8. MotoFlier

    MotoFlier Line Up and Wait

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    Sounds like assisted suicide to me
     
  9. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    as well as the episode where Scotty was kept alive in the buffer...
     
  10. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yes, but in that episode the "consciousness" didn't have to 'choose' which copy to follow, which was the part of FE's post I was addressing.
     
  11. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    What could possibly go wrong?

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    It's the energy and information that makes the quantum particles in your location materialize into you that gets sent, exciting the dormant quantum particles in that space, and like a quantum entanglement, the transfer is instant from one location to another. Nobody 'dies' in the process because what makes you alive transfers. There is no overlap possible.
     
  13. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

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    An excellent idea. I used the word 'self' and 'relocated' instead of 'recreated' for that very reason. In fact, changing recreated to relocated is why I got the edit stamp on my OP.
     
  14. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No, recreated is correct, transporters work at the quantum level with only information and energy, not matter. Matter deconstructs at one end and reconstructs at the other, instantly.
     
  15. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I always loved how the transporter operator would be manipulating switches to control the process. Yeah, I guess they didn't trust a computer to do it.
     
  16. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

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    I always assumed it was like ride operators at amusement parks. They push buttons and stuff to confirm people are clear and to shut it down in an emergency...but the actual operation is all automatic.
     
  17. ColoPilot

    ColoPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If they beam up a crate of vegetables, do those vegetables now have to be marked as 'GMO'?
     
  18. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Nope, the genes didn't change a bit, they would be QMO, Quantum Manipulated Organisms.
     
  19. mkosmo

    mkosmo Pattern Altitude

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    Law of conservation of matter, man. I'm going to have to write you a ticket.
     
  20. SkyDog58

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    I seem to recall that Scotty or whomever was operating it would be operating a slide type rheostat similar to a volume control or dimmer switch during the actual process. I would agree with you if he just pushed a couple of buttons to start the process it put it appeared he was controlling the process. No biggie though.

    So if each time this was done a copy was being made and the original destroyed, how many iterations would it take before the copy of the copy of the copy... would show major degradation or would it?
     
  21. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    On a quantum level, there is no such thing as matter. The atom's subatomic electrons are just held in place by ionic bonding, presumed to be in orbit around a nucleus of neutron and protons. Each atom is adjacent to its neighbor but there is always a gap between them - empty space.

    Brother in Law and I were discussing this very thing (space between atoms) this weekend during a game of Dominoes.

    So there is really just energy. Information is superficial and egocentric.
     
  22. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    There was an episode where Geordi Laforge said that transporter technology has been proven safe over xxx number of years. So, no degradation.
     
  23. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No laws were broken since it's only information moving like a quantum entanglement. Quantum entanglements are the key to transporter technology, nt to mention our basic understanding of a whole spectrum of physics we barely perceive.
     
  24. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

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    It would have to be 100%, right?

    Even if it replicated atoms at a 99.9999% rate there would, over time, be degradation making the technology worthless for live occupants.

    Anyway, for purpose of this thought experiment I suppose we should assume 100% accuracy. Take that off the table...
     
  25. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    Just make sure there are no flies in the room.
     
  26. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I never understood why sometimes they could do point-to-point transports but most times they would use the transporter room. If they needed to be on the transporter'd pads for some transports, why not for all? Realistically if such tech existed (yeah I know), I would think you could only transport from one transporter to another.
     
  27. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    The fly would be transported in the same proximity to the main subject.
     
  28. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Costs more energy???
     
  29. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Oh but to answer the question "Where is the self and can it be relocated?".

    I would assume in one's brain matter so as long as no brain cells were scrambled, the self would remain. Of course if there is time lapse between when the copy scan was done and when the original was destroyed, any memories or thoughts formed by the original during that time frame would be lost. And what if immediately after the original was scanned and after the copy was being assembled on the other end, the original changed his mind and stepped off the pad? Would the copy be destroyed or would the original be forced to be destroyed? Interesting ethical dilemmas which we will probably never be faced with.
     
  30. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Where is the brain? Does it stop at the skull or does it include the spine? What about the rest of the nervous system?

    I recall something about an experiment showing that other cells had a memory too and could act in the interest of self-preservation.

    I'd say that the "self" is everywhere and nowhere. It doesn't exist in 3-D space but animates a body for the purposes of experiencing the 3-D universe. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it....for now.
     
  31. Sac Arrow

    Sac Arrow Touchdown! Greaser!

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    What's new with the update:

    -Enhanced features including firearm and metallic object transport and enroute gender reassignment capabilities
    -Fixed minor issue with limb transposition
    -Fixed minor app stability issue
     
  32. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    and I suppose the next version will include political party change as well as racial homogenization.:D
     
  33. Matthew

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    I used to work with 2 geeks that spent hours discussing Star Trek vs Star Wars. One day they were talking transporters and how they worked. After trying long enough to actually get some work done, I asked a question similar to the ones above, "If a transporter disassembles your atoms and then reassembles other atoms somewhere else, it must have the ability to know how to put them all together, right?... OK, so why not keep a backup so if something happens down on the planet, you just toss 200lb of whatever into the transporter and reassemble it back into your original self?"

    That shut them up for a while, until they said, "It doesn't work that way" and then went on to argue about if a photon torpedo could destroy a Death Star.
     
  34. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don En-Route

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    I'd like to make a copy of myself at 25 years old and then just keep transporting that copy. :yes:
     
  35. Matthew

    Matthew Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Kind of like "Groundhog Day", but different.
     
  36. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The problem is I'd keep making the same stupid mistakes.
     
  37. silver-eagle

    silver-eagle En-Route

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    a mimeograph as opposed to a facsimile. You only ever got a few 100 mimeos before the copies were unreadable.

    Damn. I miss that smell of a fresh mimeo.
     
  38. cowman

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    I had always understood it to be matter converted to energy and reassembled in another location, not copying.

    Stepping outside of Star Trek universe though has anyone read Pandora's Star and the others in the same series by Peter F Hamilton? Great read for Sci-Fi lovers but looooong...

    Anyway in this universe people upload backups of their conscious mind to(basically) the internet and if they die(called "body loss") they clone a new body for them and upload the backup. This also has the effect of making everyone essentially immortal... and allowing for you to have custom bodies of whatever size/shape/race/gender made for you.

    I find that an interesting conundrum relating to this... if we copied my mind to another body and the current one died, is the consciousness typing this now gone? One would assume so, but this current instance of me would not know. The new instance of me, wouldn't know either as he'd have all the memories of the previous me.
     
  39. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    Star Gates seem to be more feasible than transporters for moving humans. Not as convenient as transporters since you have to have a gate on both ends but you're only manipulating space/time not copying, destroying the original and reconstituting matter based on info sent. Seems too easy for the info to get corrupted in the process and what about "consciousness"? How does one copy the info stored in neurons?
     
  40. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

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    Dawkins makes that point in "River Out Of Eden" - that the genetic code has to be digital in nature, not analog.