Training someone who surrendered their certificate?

RussR

RussR

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I have a prospective student who about 20 years ago had voluntarily surrendered his certificate. The reason doesn't really matter, basically he had an incident and just decided he wasn't going to fly any more, to the point where he actually surrendered the certificate. (It was not in lieu of revocation.)

Now he wants to start flying again.

I assume:
- He basically starts over as a student pilot
- He needs a "Student Pilot certificate" with his medical like any other
- He would have to be endorsed to solo like normal
- His previous time counts, however, so it's a matter of training to proficiency, a minimum of 3 hours within the 2 months prior to his checkride (not a problem)
- He needs to take the written again ***
- He needs to take the practical again

*** He says he talked to a FSDO inspector that said he doesn't need to take the written again. I can't see why this would be the case, am I missing something?

Do I have this generally right? Anything else I should be aware of? Obviously we'll put special emphasis on the areas of operation that led to his incident.

Any good references for this type of situation? Anybody had this type of situation before? Not much in the CFR's.
 
I could be wrong, but he might have to take the ride with the FAA in lieu of a DPE, as it was probably at the time of surrender a 709 ride to get it current again. But I'm just guessing here.
 
Wouldn't his logbook time still be valid?
 
So, 3 hrs+ to PTS standards on each certificate/rating?
 
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Make sure he puts some time and thought into how he's going to tell the story to the DPE. They are obviously going to ask and he needs to have a good answer framed in a way that he's happy with. During the oral is not a good time to start thinking about what he's going to say.
 
RussR said:
I assume:
- He basically starts over as a student pilot
- He needs a "Student Pilot certificate" with his medical like any other
- He would have to be endorsed to solo like normal
- His previous time counts, however, so it's a matter of training to proficiency, a minimum of 3 hours within the 2 months prior to his checkride (not a problem)
- He needs to take the written again ***
- He needs to take the practical again

*** He says he talked to a FSDO inspector that said he doesn't need to take the written again. I can't see why this would be the case, am I missing something?
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No, but either your friend or that Inspector missed something in their exchange. The regs require that the written have been passed within the preceding 24 calendar months, and 20 years ago is a bit outside that window.
Any good references for this type of situation?
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Not really, other than the PTS.
 
Captain said:
Make sure he puts some time and thought into how he's going to tell the story to the DPE. They are obviously going to ask and he needs to have a good answer framed in a way that he's happy with. During the oral is not a good time to start thinking about what he's going to say.
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Um, no.

Nothing in the PTS requires or even permits such inquiry.
 
Old Geek said:
Um, no.

Nothing in the PTS requires or even permits such inquiry.
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Not sure of which enquiry you are referring to, the primary one I see for the DPE is "Can you show me why you don't have current results from a Knowledge Test?" That is a valid enquiry. I can see where he might be correct, but as part of the oral as well as part of the required package for the ride, it is a valid question by the PTS.

If the enquiry is, "Why did you surrender your certificate?" I see your point.
 
Henning said:
Not sure of which enquiry you are referring to, the primary one I see for the DPE is "Can you show me why you don't have current results from a Knowledge Test?" That is a valid enquiry.
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It's also one for which this particular pilot would not have an acceptable answer, since the last time s/he passed the written for that certificate was well over 24 calendar months ago.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's also one for which this particular pilot would not have an acceptable answer, since the last time s/he passed the written for that certificate was well over 24 calendar months ago.
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Yeah, I'm not sure how the return from surrender (not in lieu of revocation) works. I could see where there is a potential that they allow everything but the Checkride to remain in effect, but he would need to be prepared with that evidence. I know that I can "shelf" my USCG license with just a quick partial exam to get it back, I just have never even looked at the rules concerning this.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, I'm not sure how the return from surrender (not in lieu of revocation) works.
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I can't imagine it is any different. Either way you are without a license. All the flight time still remains valid, but the tests and checkride would have to be redone.
 
Greg is right -- there are no special provisions in Part 61 for former holders of pilot certificates.
 
Ron Levy said:
Greg is right -- there are no special provisions in Part 61 for former holders of pilot certificates.
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Agreed, I've never seen it, but that's not the only reference the FSDO uses, just the most restrictive.

If the guy says he talked to the FSDO and was told "no written required", my suggestion would be have him return to the FSDO and get it in writing, I doubt the DPE would go against a letter from the FSDO. Perhaps he could even schedule his ride with them.:dunno:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I can't imagine it is any different. Either way you are without a license. All the flight time still remains valid, but the tests and checkride would have to be redone.
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If one just has to know how to go about this, here is the contact information:

Federal Aviation Administration
Airmen Certification Branch, AFS-760
P.O. Box 25082
Oklahoma City, OK 73125-0082

(405) 954-3261
 
If anyone is making a stink about taking the written, that should be a red flag in and of itself. For someone who should have the basics from years ago in nearly-retrievable memory, just spend an afternoon flipping through the gleim book and then take the test.
 
Thanks all for the advice. I've only spoken to this person on the phone, but we're meeting in a few days for an initial flight and figure out how to best get him back up to speed.

I don't think he necessarily has a problem taking the written again, just that he asked the FSDO about it and they said no. Actually, he seems quite willing to do whatever it takes to get his certificate back, and from our discussion seems quite humble about the whole thing, knowing that he may have some work ahead. He even said that after he gets it back, he wants to move right into instrument training (and has already started studying for that!)

After we meet up and I get all the details laid out, I'll probably call (or maybe visit, they're right down the road) the FSDO and make sure that we do everything right!
 
JHW said:
...just spend an afternoon flipping through the gleim book and then take the test.
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You missed a step. He'll have to demonstrate his preparation for the knowledge test to a CFI, who will then endorse him to take the test.
 
Seems like all the dots have been crossed in this discussion.
1. Get a ground school certificate to take the written and take the written again (a lot has changed in 20 years, btw).
2. Get enough CFI time to be signed off for a checkride.
3. Poll the FSDO whether a DPE will do the ride or will they.
4 Take the ride.
5. Be prepared to explain why he surrendered previous certificate of competence more than once. It will get asked by each new person having to sign something.

The Administrator will be far less concerned with his flying ability (previously demonstrated) than with his judgement and emotional stability.
 
I can't see the logic of voluntarily surrendering one's certificate in any event, for just that reason. If he would have simply stopped flying and left it at that, he would only be looking at reestablishing currency.

Is there any practical reason to surrender a certificate?
 
Sac Arrow said:
I can't see the logic of voluntarily surrendering one's certificate in any event, for just that reason. If he would have simply stopped flying and left it at that, he would only be looking at reestablishing currency.

Is there any practical reason to surrender a certificate?
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Maybe the pilot thinks he is a threat to himself or a threat to others for whatever reason that may be
 
Sac Arrow said:
I can't see the logic of voluntarily surrendering one's certificate in any event, for just that reason. If he would have simply stopped flying and left it at that, he would only be looking at reestablishing currency.

Is there any practical reason to surrender a certificate?
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Terms of a child custody agreement?

Dealing with a drug or alcohol addiction?

Marital issues, too much time and money at the airport?

I know they sound kinda lame from our standpoint, but they are possibilities.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I can't see the logic of voluntarily surrendering one's certificate in any event, for just that reason. If he would have simply stopped flying and left it at that, he would only be looking at reestablishing currency.

Is there any practical reason to surrender a certificate?
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No longer having to comply with FARs (such as reporting change of address or motor vehicle action)
 
JoeSelch said:
No longer having to comply with FARs (such as reporting change of address or motor vehicle action)
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That one makes sense. Regarding the other possible issues, one could just simply stop flying.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I can't see the logic of voluntarily surrendering one's certificate in any event, for just that reason. If he would have simply stopped flying and left it at that, he would only be looking at reestablishing currency.

Is there any practical reason to surrender a certificate?
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Yes, but it's more emotional rather than logical. It is a guard against your own mind being able to decide to do something as stupid as fly again. It's basically because someone doesn't trust themselves. Surrendering the ticket makes sure that your alter ego will really have to prove not only to yourself but to a professional examiner that alter ego actually knows how to fly this ****ing thing.

The mind is an incredible thing, and man doesn't even understand how incredible it is. It produces things that physicists are just discovering, they haven't even made the correlation yet. It's so sad when people are afraid of their own minds, they shirk from using them because anything can happen, and that scares them.
 
It could also be he surrendered it in a plea deal to end an FAA process. I know a CFI who surrendered his instructor's certificate in a dispute which did not involve the violation of any FAR, but brought his judgment into question. He can retest and get the certificate back, and may be back on his feet sooner than he'd be through an administrative hearing. A private pilot might have a less dramatic version of the same situation.
 
JHW said:
If anyone is making a stink about taking the written, that should be a red flag in and of itself. For someone who should have the basics from years ago in nearly-retrievable memory, just spend an afternoon flipping through the gleim book and then take the test.
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The sentiment is fine but IMO the rationale is not.

20 years ago, METAR and TAF did not exist in the US and neither did Class A, B, C, D or E airspace. And how about those questions on GPS? Add to that, there is a lot of stuff on the knowledge test that disappears the day after the test due to non-use, even for an active pilot; much more will be lost over the course of 20 years.

It will likely take more than an afternoon but there is enough on the knowledge test that is important that there should be no stink about it and enough that has changed over the course of 20 years that it will probably take more than an afternoon of flipping though a book.
 
Henning said:
If the guy says he talked to the FSDO and was told "no written required", my suggestion would be have him return to the FSDO and get it in writing, I doubt the DPE would go against a letter from the FSDO.
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I don't think there's a chance in the world that a DPE would do that even with a letter from a FSDO Inspector (which I'm equally sure would never be forthcoming). As I said before, I'm as sure as I can be that either the Inspector was confused by the applicant's question or the applicant was confused by the Inspector's answer.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I can't see the logic of voluntarily surrendering one's certificate in any event, for just that reason. If he would have simply stopped flying and left it at that, he would only be looking at reestablishing currency.
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Sometimes the alternatives (say, revocation) appear worse to the airman than certificate surrender.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think there's a chance in the world that a DPE would do that even with a letter from a FSDO Inspector (which I'm equally sure would never be forthcoming). As I said before, I'm as sure as I can be that either the Inspector was confused by the applicant's question or the applicant was confused by the Inspector's answer.
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FAR 61.27, read together with the voluntary surrender statements that are specified as sufficient by the Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS), make it pretty clear.

FAR 61.27 - Voluntary Surrender.jpg


Surrender Letters.jpg
 
It gets even better!

In the intervening years, he lost his logbook. He reconstructed his total Private training time from his 8710, and his post-Private time from other records he had. He included a signed statement to that effect. But of course, his pre-Private training is all lumped together into the 8710 categories - Dual Received, Dual XC training, etc. - in other words, not broken down by individual flight.

Since he surrendered his certificate, he has to meet all the requirements to get another one - all the cross country requirements etc. So, using XC as an example, he has met the requirement for total dual XC. But although he must have met the individual flight requirement (like the 150 nm XC) to get the PP certificate (actually it would have been longer since it was pre-1997), he has no documentation of that OTHER than that he previously had a Private Pilot certificate, which of course he doesn't actually have any more.

So I'm confused, and I'm questioning whether the fact that he had a PP cert before is sufficient evidence that he fulfilled the XC (and other requirements), or will we necessarily need to re-do them?

Obviously I'm going to train him up to proficiency, that's not an issue. The issue is whether we will need to actually re-do all the 61.109 requirements or not.

I think I absolutely need to talk to the FSDO on this one, but thought I'd see if anyone else has similar experiences.
 
I think the record of his previous PP certificate would be evidence that he met the PP aeronautical experience requirements in effect at the time that certificate was issued. You'd have to check the historical version of 61.109 in effect then with the current 61.109 to make sure there's nothing required now which was not required then. For example, when I got my PP in 1970, the 3-hour instrument requirement now in 61.109 did not exist. OTOH, the solo requirement has gone down from 20 total/10 XC to 10 total/5 XC. However, getting confirmation from the FSDO which supervises the DPE you'll use would be a good idea.
 
Yeah, we have beaten this horse into a heap.
The idle thought occurs to me that perhaps the cleanest route is to present as a new student with zero hours on paper. Given he has been through training and a check ride 20 years prior (assumed) he should be able to be signed off for a check ride at the minimum required hours.
That should be a first for the CFI and DPE :D
 
Dr. O said:
Yeah, we have beaten this horse into a heap.
The idle thought occurs to me that perhaps the cleanest route is to present as a new student with zero hours on paper. Given he has been through training and a check ride 20 years prior (assumed) he should be able to be signed off for a check ride at the minimum required hours.
That should be a first for the CFI and DPE :D
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You could certainly do that, but it's probably going to be a lot more expensive than just training to proficiency. And you can't hide the past from the examiner -- see Section I, Block M on the 8710-1: "Do you hold, or have you ever held an FAA certificate?"
 
Ron, hiding was not my thought, suggestion, nor intent. Of course everyone on the airport will know. They already do, likely.

But it might be the cleanest route from point A to point B given the nit picking of bureaucrats
As many have pointed out:
1. He he doesn't have a written to the current standard.
2. He hasn't met the current PTS.
By the time he does those two things about all that is left is the cross countries and burning through the hours.
With a student sign off in a few hours of dual (assuming that he can perform) he can get the 20 hours solo and XC out of the way while having fun.
Then he can finish what is left on the 20 hours of dual and go see the DPE.
The whole 40 hours is less than he should be flying annually anyway so I am not concerned about his costs..

Might be my aged brain but were I he, that is the route I would start on whilst OK City contemplates it's navel and decides what of his previous experience will apply - or not. He could be pleasantly surprised.
So from my point of view if they take the hard line he will only be out a bit of extra dual if he goes back to zero.

OTOH, if he intends to make demands that the CFI is going to get headaches over, I would take a pass.
 
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