Third Class Med with Past Substance Abuse?

@172andyou - I never referenced AA -0 EVER - what I said was that there are processes which help addicts. Period. The FAA wants to see the various programs - I make no assumption if they work or not - what I'm saying is that if you need a crutch then you need a crutch. and if it works - then it works.

You said that tolerance == addiction. That's the initial beef I had with your comment.

Then you said that "The FAA - who is the medical gatekeeper here - tells us that steps 1-12 or whatever they are - is what they want to see". Which is a reference to AA and other similar programs. The FAA is wrong to consider AA a "cornerstone" (their word) of recovery.

But, yes, AA is my soapbox. Because it doesn't work and people are suffering as a result.

If you agree that AA is a failure that should be done away with, then we're on the same page. If you don't, then we're not.
 
So, I just heard back from Dr. Bruce. It looks like I have some deciding to do. It really truly, deeply pains me that this is the way things are, but I understand why. Maybe they should do away with the ADM training, because if you make a bad decision it's because your brain has a problem, and it's not a behavior you can identify and learn to change. Maybe they should make every pilot go through this to catch the drunks that just haven't gotten caught yet? (Vent over)
 
So, I just heard back from Dr. Bruce. It looks like I have some deciding to do. It really truly, deeply pains me that this is the way things are, but I understand why. Maybe they should do away with the ADM training, because if you make a bad decision it's because your brain has a problem, and it's not a behavior you can identify and learn to change. Maybe they should make every pilot go through this to catch the drunks that just haven't gotten caught yet? (Vent over)
Be glad you even have a pathway. There are plenty of folks who would gladly give up the occasional drink in exchange for the ability to fly.
 
Yeah, and 6 beers and 2 shots is a lot of alcohol to drink, even over 5 hours. If you disagree, you might have a problem. If you still "feel fine" after drinking that much, you may have a tolerance.
OP said "DUI: Highest Rte of Alcohol (BAC .16+) 1st Off"

Dunno what his BAC was when he actually was stopped, but he was able to get to a car, start it, and drive away.

To the OP:

You can still fly airplanes, but you'll need a CFI or someone else willing to be PIC for every flight. People actually do this.

Ultralights and gliders are also an option.
 
Since I never actually submitted a medical (this not being denied) so I still have the LSA option open. There is an airport about 45 min away with a Skycatcher, so I'm going to take a look at that option. And the giving up the occasional drink isn't really the big factor, it's more the $8000 in estimated costs (according to Dr Bruce) for the first two years in evaluations and tests, and 160 hours of intensive outpatient rehab in addition AA meetings. I have a job (leave the house at 8am and get home at 7:30pm) and I do like spending time with my wife.

Really, what am I supposed to talk about in rehab. How I need to get my life together? Yeah, I did that 11 years ago. This "abstinence is the only way" way of thinking is quite frankly BS. I'm not bashing AA, for some people abstinence is the only way and AA is a tremendous resource for them, but it's not the only way for everyone.

Here are some studies to my point, because I don't like to speak without having facts to back up my point. Don't think I can post links, but these are the names of the studies

Helping Patients Who Drink Too Much: An Evidence-Based Guide for Primary Care Physicians.

Recovery from alcohol problems with and without treatment: prevalence in two population surveys.

Harm reduction approaches to alcohol use: health promotion, prevention, and treatment.
 
Tried to find the BAC I had, but the paperwork I saved just says the result were pending the blood test. I want to say it was a .18, but I'm not 100% sure. The officer noted I "had extreme difficulty maintaining his balance and had to lean against a pole to hold himself up. Voice was extremely slurred. Could not recall the events of the crash"

No one was injured, I hit a guard rail and totaled my car. I don't even know how I got where I ended up. I got lucky, I know this could have been a lot worse. I have a friend that was hit by a drunk driver 6 years ago and he was in a coma for three weeks and it took him a good 2 years before he was back to 90%, he'll never be 100%
 
The difference is while many pilots drink, we don't get into cars and drive afterwards. It's called self responsibility.

You ha have a path to a medical but are choosing booze instead.

That's all that needs to be said.
 
Well to be fair he did say it was the $8000 and the spending nights away from home when he works nearly 12 hours a day. I wouldn't do that either. Unless I was so rich $8000 meant nothing to me.
 
I would bet his DUI conviction wasn't his first time drinking. Those who drink heavily develop a tolerance (which is why the FAA is going to have a serious time with someone with FOUR alcohol convictions). This doesn't mean your any more able to fly/drive at a moderate BAC, just that you're more likely to be able to try.

As pointed out, SOBER in this circumstance means complete abstinence (not just keeping below .08). Further, the FAA is going to want (if they chose to issue at all) proof both in the form of psychiatric evaluations and random testing, that you aren't drinking. There is NO POSSIBILITY the FAA will tolerate other than complete abstinence even if they deign to issue you. Dr. Bruce can give you a read on your chances if you're willing to be compliant and jump through the hoops.

I hope you have received serious help on your substance abuse issues (not just self-treating with AA or other such programs).
 
The difference is while many pilots drink, we don't get into cars and drive afterwards. It's called self responsibility.

You ha have a path to a medical but are choosing booze instead.

That's all that needs to be said.

Where you just as responsible at 21 as you were in your mid 30s? If so that's awesome, but I'm pretty sure for most that's not the case.
 
Where you just as responsible at 21 as you were in your mid 30s? If so that's awesome, but I'm pretty sure for most that's not the case.

Yes, but I had a two year old son, and a daughter on the way. Sort of forces one to grow up...

Tim
 
In most cases, this one included, FAA does provide a path to that medical. it can be a very expensive path, but it's there.

I was riding with a cop buddy in a college town late one night. He pulled over a car for speeding (I think it was something like 50 in a 30), the driver made a half-hearted attempt to sneak around the corner, but pulled over. She was either going to or coming from a last-day-of-finals party. People think a breath mint helps, but no, it just makes the alcohol on your breath smell minty fresh. She failed the field sobriety test (just barely), she failed the portable breathalyzer (just barely), and my buddy made a judgement call. He figured by the time he got her to the station, filled out the paperwork, and got her onto the real breathalyzer that she'd blow under the limit. So he decided to just give her the speeding ticket and make her call someone to drive her home. But he gave her the speech, "You just graduated! You are looking for a job right now, how do you think it's going to go for you when you fill out a job application and you see that question asking if you ever had a DUI?" Maybe that lesson stuck, maybe not.

Actions have consequences, even stupid things when we are 21. Some of us made it through those years without any lasting harm, some of us didn't.
 
Where you just as responsible at 21 as you were in your mid 30s? If so that's awesome, but I'm pretty sure for most that's not the case.

A fair point, none of us are. But at any age to drink often enough to attain a point that you have "blackouts" (memory loss) and aren't in a coma with a BAC around .18 means something entirely different from the irresponsible learning curve many youth go through including myself. I had a few big drunks in college but hated it so much that love of alcohol never "took" with me, same with cigarettes. Even watching my dad get gangrene from cigarette related disease was not enough to prevent me from picking up a cigarette, because I wanted to be cool with the crowd. Hated every second of it, got violently allergic to it and by the time I was 22 had enough maturity to say to hell with fitting in, smoking is not for me! Same with alcohol, to this day I hate the effects of alcohol and only drink once in a while, average one or two drinks per YEAR.

What I did was irresponsible youth. I don't have the addiction gene. What you did was way more than irresponsible youth. There is an underlying cause there. I'm not about judging you at all. I don't think it's a moral issue. My opinion is people with a history such as yours usually have an underlying disorder which causes suffering and you accidentally find that substances medicate it. The fault is that these causes are still very poorly understood and under-diagnosed (paradoxically they are also over diagnosed). Society does a terrible job of addressing the causes of deep teenage unhappiness which is the presenting symptom of many of these disorders.

Many times people claim emotional unhappiness due to family dysfunction, and the story is these emotional fallout is the pain you are addressing. I disagree. Psychological disorders are STRONGLY correlated to genetics plus familial environment such as diet, insufficient sunshine, etc., so the truth is (in my opinion) the same BIOCHEMICAL imbalance that causes your unhappiness also caused your parents' and hence whatever behavior they exhibited that caused the family dysfunction. (Not "you" you; I am speaking to the general "you".)

My opinion is that the majority of addicts (or if you prefer, people who use a mere habit to self medicate) would be helped far more if we made progress understanding and treating the neuro-chemical foundations of the psychological state.
 
OP, the bottom is the rule are what they are, and being unhappy about them isn't going to change things. There are rules I don't agree with, but I grudgingly abide by them or risk the consequences. If you want a third-class medical, you are going to need to go through the steps outlined by Dr. Bruce.
 
A fair point, none of us are. But at any age to drink often enough to attain a point that you have "blackouts" (memory loss) and aren't in a coma with a BAC around .18 means something entirely different from the irresponsible learning curve many youth go through including myself. I had a few big drunks in college but hated it so much that love of alcohol never "took" with me, same with cigarettes. Even watching my dad get gangrene from cigarette related disease was not enough to prevent me from picking up a cigarette, because I wanted to be cool with the crowd. Hated every second of it, got violently allergic to it and by the time I was 22 had enough maturity to say to hell with fitting in, smoking is not for me! Same with alcohol, to this day I hate the effects of alcohol and only drink once in a while, average one or two drinks per YEAR.

What I did was irresponsible youth. I don't have the addiction gene. What you did was way more than irresponsible youth. There is an underlying cause there. I'm not about judging you at all. I don't think it's a moral issue. My opinion is people with a history such as yours usually have an underlying disorder which causes suffering and you accidentally find that substances medicate it. The fault is that these causes are still very poorly understood and under-diagnosed (paradoxically they are also over diagnosed). Society does a terrible job of addressing the causes of deep teenage unhappiness which is the presenting symptom of many of these disorders.

Many times people claim emotional unhappiness due to family dysfunction, and the story is these emotional fallout is the pain you are addressing. I disagree. Psychological disorders are STRONGLY correlated to genetics plus familial environment such as diet, insufficient sunshine, etc., so the truth is (in my opinion) the same BIOCHEMICAL imbalance that causes your unhappiness also caused your parents' and hence whatever behavior they exhibited that caused the family dysfunction. (Not "you" you; I am speaking to the general "you".)

My opinion is that the majority of addicts (or if you prefer, people who use a mere habit to self medicate) would be helped far more if we made progress understanding and treating the neuro-chemical foundations of the psychological state.

I agree with you 100% on this. I have no problem with the word addict, but I just want to make clear that there is a distinction between an addiction and a habit. An addiction is a physical or mental dependence. You need the substance, and if you consume it, it is VERY hard to stop. Whereas a habit is a learned behavior that can be changed. I know I mentioned the needed in the charges and since I'm posting anon I'll throw this out there. I used to use heroin. That was a substance I was addicted to. I tried to quite 4 or 5 times, but each time I relapsed I would fool myself with the notion "i can just use it a little". Every single time I was wrong and it almost killed me on a couple of occasions. This is why I have not touched that substance in 11 years and will never touch it again. I guess you could say I'm "in recovery", but I never give it much though. I hear "in recovery" and I imagine something that takes effort, but to be honest, it's not hard to not do it. I don't even think about it and can openly talk about it without getting a craving. Everyone that I knew when I using it has been purged from my life because "people, places, and things".

As I mentioned in an earlier post I realized that I was using alcohol to self medicate. I was a screw-up when I was younger. I dropped out of high school when I was 16 (I did eventually go back and graduate), hung around a bad circle of "friends" and every time I did try to better my life things would just fall apart again because I wasn't addressing my substance abuse. I had nothing going in my life and I learn from watching my parents when things are rough, drinking dulls the pain. After I got arrested and sat in jail for a few days it really hit me how sever the consequence would be if I kept on that path. That's when I had my 2 year period of sobriety from all substances. I did go to AA, and it did help to hear the storied people had and cemented the fact that abusing alcohol can cost you everything. I didn't start drinking again because I "had to have it" I started again because I felt I had learned to use it responsibly, and I have. I would have hoped that the last decade of achievements and the fact that for the last 7-8 years that I have used alcohol I don't meet any of the DSM-5 criteria for misuse would be enough to show that I don't have a problem.

To quote the "Helping Patients Who Drink Too Much: An Evidence-Based Guide for Primary Care Physicians." I pointed to in my post last night:

"About one third of persons meeting dependence criteria at some point in their life have a relatively brief course of heavy drinking during late adolescence and early adulthood.6 Most of these persons fully recover as they mature into adults, and 40 percent eventually become stable low-risk drinkers.5,22 Almost none of these persons receives treatment,6 and physicians are most likely to encounter them only if they present with acute trauma."

So there is clinical evidence that states that abstinence is not the "only way". I'm not saying the FAA should just automatically give me a medical because I've been good for so long. I think it's completely fair if they would ask me to an addiction specialist or psychiatrist to confirm that I'm not a risk. My issue is the automatic "You're a drunk that needs intensive rehab and AA and if you go through all of this we might let you fly"
 
OP, the bottom is the rule are what they are, and being unhappy about them isn't going to change things. There are rules I don't agree with, but I grudgingly abide by them or risk the consequences. If you want a third-class medical, you are going to need to go through the steps outlined by Dr. Bruce.

Argh, my last reply to @Rushie might have inadvertently contained a link and is pending moderator approval. In short, I agree, but addict and habit are different animals. I agree the FAA should require a meeting with an addiction specialist and/or psychiatrist for a case like this to insure I'm not a risk. But I think the mandatory treatment is a bit over the top without even speaking to a medical professional.

@Everskyward, yup. I know them be the rules and either comply to fly, or don't and just get a boat :) I was only continuing the discussion because in the end the FAA is government agency that is here to serve all Americans and without debate on subjects like this things will never change. BasicMed and the Sport Pilot certificate wouldn't be a thing if people didn't have these types of discussions.
 
Yes, but I had a two year old son, and a daughter on the way. Sort of forces one to grow up...

Tim
glad you did - there are many many people in their 30's and 40's whom I meet in my practice who never do - and raise kids to be the same inconsiderate arsehole they are.
 
Where you just as responsible at 21 as you were in your mid 30s? If so that's awesome, but I'm pretty sure for most that's not the case.
Personally, I think you're the anomaly, not most 20yr olds. During grad school I worked as a bartender in a college town, held far too many heads over the toilet. I'd say 90% of them were 1 time bingers. Once was enuf. After that, at most a couple beers and only on weekends. I often saw the same kids but almost none went past the couple beers. Those that did, well, we had campus and local cops on speed dial. Excellent deterrent when they'd come in late in the evening during rounds.
 
Personally, I think you're the anomaly, not most 20yr olds. During grad school I worked as a bartender in a college town, held far too many heads over the toilet. I'd say 90% of them were 1 time bingers. Once was enuf. After that, at most a couple beers and only on weekends. I often saw the same kids but almost none went past the couple beers. Those that did, well, we had campus and local cops on speed dial. Excellent deterrent when they'd come in late in the evening during rounds.
For me, it boiled down to, do I want to be a pilot or not. I did have fun in high school and college but never went over the top. It was either pro pilot or bust for me.
 
All I can say is if the OP can't pay up for all the testing crap to get the medical then the OP is not the right person to enter the world of aviation. The money to get the medical is just a drop in the bucket in aviation terms, and aviation takes time and money. It takes boatloads of both to learn, and lots of both to stay current. I would have reacted the same as him had I seen the bill, but the truth is its nothing compared to what one spends down the road.
 
All I can say is if the OP can't pay up for all the testing crap to get the medical then the OP is not the right person to enter the world of aviation. The money to get the medical is just a drop in the bucket in aviation terms, and aviation takes time and money. It takes boatloads of both to learn, and lots of both to stay current. I would have reacted the same as him had I seen the bill, but the truth is its nothing compared to what one spends down the road.

It's not really so much of "can't" as it is "should I" (not as in it's not fair. I'm taking my ball and going home). I fully understand how expensive aviation is. I did a ton of research before beginning this pursuit. Like I mentioned, I was trying to join a flying club as this is a weekend hobby for me, not a profession. Their 152 is $70/h wet, 172 is $90/h wet. Figured I'd be spending around $4-6k a year after I got my ticket for the type of flying I'd be doing. This is a discussion I had with my wife before I started out and we are both comfortable with this. We have other things that we are trying to do as well though, like fix up the house, and possibly trying to adopt in the next few years as we learned we can't have kids(We're not getting any younger). For me to tell her, "Sorry babe, my dreams come first" is a bit selfish. While we're slightly comfortable right now, we are by no means wealthy. Throwing $8k in additional cost into the mix up front is something that might make me need to re-calibrate my goals. That, and like I said the time cost of the intensive treatment mandated for a problem that in reality no longer exists.
 
Yeah, and 6 beers and 2 shots is a lot of alcohol to drink, even over 5 hours. If you disagree, you might have a problem. If you still "feel fine" after drinking that much, you may have a tolerance.
Or you may just have a different metabolism. the amount of alcohol you're talking about is about how much I had to drink in a 2-3 hour time frame to feel any effect of consumption the first time I consumed in my life.

Also no matter how much I consume I don't get hangovers. I have gotten up the next day still drunk. Never had a hangover or gotten sick though.
 
All I can say is if the OP can't pay up for all the testing crap to get the medical then the OP is not the right person to enter the world of aviation. The money to get the medical is just a drop in the bucket in aviation terms, and aviation takes time and money. It takes boatloads of both to learn, and lots of both to stay current. I would have reacted the same as him had I seen the bill, but the truth is its nothing compared to what one spends down the road.

Depends on how you chose to fly. I have a friend with C140, his annual complete budget is around 6K. So 8K just to get through the paperwork is a rather large deterrent.

Tim
 
^ that "problem that no longer exits" statement is based on DSM-5 criteria for alcohol use disorder
 
All I can say is if the OP can't pay up for all the testing crap to get the medical then the OP is not the right person to enter the world of aviation. The money to get the medical is just a drop in the bucket in aviation terms, and aviation takes time and money. It takes boatloads of both to learn, and lots of both to stay current. I would have reacted the same as him had I seen the bill, but the truth is its nothing compared to what one spends down the road.

I don't agree. Yes, keeping an IFR equipped Bonanza (for example) is expensive, at least from my perspective, but there are plenty of us with sub $20K (or even sub $10K) used experimentals, which can be cheaper to fly and maintain than, say, a bass boat. From that perspective, $8K is a lot of money. There's also the risk of spending the $8K (or perhaps more) and still be denied.

To the OP: It sucks, but the FAA's rules are based on the typical case, not the one exceptional individual you believe you are (and may well be). But there's nothing you can do about that. Basically, you have a choice: Don't get a medical and instead fly Sport Pilot while living whatever lifestyle you choose, or never drink again, spend the money, and take the chance that you might even be denied the chance to fly as a SP. In the latter case, your choices will be limited to ultralights or gliders (including motorgliders).

Or start SP training now, and later, if you feel you're bumping into the SP limitations, then consider whether to pursue the medical for PP.
 
This is directed purely to the OP, and not to any of the respondents. (All of whom I know to be good, well-intentioned people.)

Two separate issues are being debated here, and only one of them should matter to you. Flying. The FAA is what it is. I had to jump through a lot of stupid hoops, based on stupid assumptions and outdated science. But that's what it took to get my medical, so that's what I did. Everyone's advice in that regard is spot-on. Had I been privy to such advice prior to starting my medical process, I still would have needed to jump through the hoops, but it would have been a lot less stressful, and a lot less expensive. Start with Doc Bruce.

As for all the crap about "are you an addict or aren't you an addict", "should you do this" or "should you do that", it's all crap. No one knows what works for you but you. These days, nearly all of medical and mental health is industrialized, herd-mentality, care that is rarely focused on the individual, but rather on the most common stereotypes. There is no time to treat people as individuals, and tailor their care to meet their unique needs, as that eats into profit margins. In this day and age, that is up to you. It took me a long time to figure this out. (I was once in the health-care industry.) Eventually, I learned to listen to my body first, and all the so-called experts second. If your body is telling you something different than what the experts are telling you, you'd better listen to your body first.

But with the FAA: Shut up and do as you are told. (Then come here to complain about it.) :crazy:
 
Depends on how you chose to fly. I have a friend with C140, his annual complete budget is around 6K. So 8K just to get through the paperwork is a rather large deterrent.

Tim

Many people spend more than that on hangar costs alone. An expensive annual can run more than that, much more. A busted radio can cost that easily.
 
has all of this been more than 10 years ago?

Didn't Bruce mention something that when its more than a decade and you can prove it with DMV records - that the FAA gets somewhat less onerous?
 
This is directed purely to the OP, and not to any of the respondents. (All of whom I know to be good, well-intentioned people.)

Two separate issues are being debated here, and only one of them should matter to you. Flying. The FAA is what it is. I had to jump through a lot of stupid hoops, based on stupid assumptions and outdated science. But that's what it took to get my medical, so that's what I did. Everyone's advice in that regard is spot-on. Had I been privy to such advice prior to starting my medical process, I still would have needed to jump through the hoops, but it would have been a lot less stressful, and a lot less expensive. Start with Doc Bruce.

As for all the crap about "are you an addict or aren't you an addict", "should you do this" or "should you do that", it's all crap. No one knows what works for you but you. These days, nearly all of medical and mental health is industrialized, herd-mentality, care that is rarely focused on the individual, but rather on the most common stereotypes. There is no time to treat people as individuals, and tailor their care to meet their unique needs, as that eats into profit margins. In this day and age, that is up to you. It took me a long time to figure this out. (I was once in the health-care industry.) Eventually, I learned to listen to my body first, and all the so-called experts second. If your body is telling you something different than what the experts are telling you, you'd better listen to your body first.

But with the FAA: Shut up and do as you are told. (Then come here to complain about it.) :crazy:

Yup, absolutely agree with you. Like I said above, comply to fly, or don't and just get a boat. While the news I got sucks, at least I'm fortunate enough in the fact that OKC doesn't have a file on me and I can still go Sport. The advice from this forum has been extremely helpful and I am thankful that Dr Bruce was able to tell me what it would take, rather than me finding it out after submitting a MexEx for. I actually have a lesson scheduled for Monday in a Skycatcher. It's probably gonna get rained out, but I guess that's only appropriate for the first lesson (the weather will never cooperate with you :) ) I'm going to make sure the CFI's med is current and that he is certified for under subpart H and not a CFIS, so if in the future things change I can at least use that training toward a PPL
 
has all of this been more than 10 years ago?

Didn't Bruce mention something that when its more than a decade and you can prove it with DMV records - that the FAA gets somewhat less onerous?

He said that because it was dual substance they would want 10 years abstinent from everything because they have a lower success rate than with single substance.
 
Many people spend more than that on hangar costs alone. An expensive annual can run more than that, much more. A busted radio can cost that easily.
That's why I was going the club route. All of the fun of having a plane there to fly at a good rate, with none of the added costs of ownership. I'd like to own something one day, but like I said above I have some other priorities that are at the front of the line
 
Personally, I think you're the anomaly, not most 20yr olds. During grad school I worked as a bartender in a college town, held far too many heads over the toilet. I'd say 90% of them were 1 time bingers. Once was enuf. After that, at most a couple beers and only on weekends. I often saw the same kids but almost none went past the couple beers. Those that did, well, we had campus and local cops on speed dial. Excellent deterrent when they'd come in late in the evening during rounds.

That was me. One or two sessions of my face in the toilet was enough to convince me never to go there again. I stuck to one or two beers for the most part and even then basically disliked alcohol and it was more about socializing. There are rare circumstances I like it, for example, Anchor Steam draft with oysters on the half shell at Howard's Pub in Ocracoke. But those are special flavor combinations. I still don't really enjoy the alcohol effect. I worked as a janitor in a bar to put myself through college. I got to clean the vomit out of urinals.
 
"The difference is while many pilots drink, we don't get into cars and drive afterwards."
I take it you don't hang out with very many pilots.
The key is to not get caught. And the key to not getting caught is to have lots of practice. That's why it's important to keep a 'fridge full of beer in the hangar. Or, so I'm told - my 'fridge is full of oil, MEK, polytone, etc.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top