Third Class Med with Past Substance Abuse?

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Guest

Guest
I tried to post this earlier, but I'm not sure if it was rejected due to me including a link to the pretrial program I mention below so I'm going to try again with it taken out. Sorry if this is a little long winded, or goes off on tangents, but I'm just trying to give a sense of who I was and who I am; my full story.

I'm about to start on the path to get my PPL, but I was a total screw-up when I was younger and I'm terrified that I'm going to be denied a third class medical. In my late teens and early 20s I dealt with an on and off cycle of some pretty bad substance abuse. If you need details I'm more than willing to share. After the December 2005 incident listed below the judge allowed me to enter a pre-trial division program. During this time I completely cut off contact with everyone I associated with and stopped all illicit substance use. I've been clean for 11 years from any illegal substance. When I stopped my drug use I began drinking. I grew up with parents who abused alcohol and my usage was no different. I would joke that I would "drink to fall down". I know, this isn't funny, and it was an incredibly stupid time in my life. Well, during this pre-trial program I had a couple of run-ins with the law involving alcohol and an incident where ended up sitting in a jail cell for a few days. This was my rock bottom and I knew I had to change. My moment of clarity was when I was talking to the guy in the cell with me giving the whole "woe is me" story taking about how I got off drugs and I was trying to do better and all I did now was drink, but still kept getting in trouble. He pointed out that all I was really doing was just trading substances and it was right then that I kind of just clicked. I realized that I was just self medicating to try to escape the negative feelings I had about how my life was going. After this I started going to AA meetings on the orders of my pretrial officer. I finished the pre-trial program and continued to not drink for another year or two. I don't remember when I decided I was OK to have a beer again, but I do know that when I did I wasn't doing it for the reasons I abused substances. While I do enjoy having a drink every once in a while now, I do not abuse alcohol. I'll have maybe 3-4 times a month, like a couple of beers if I'm out with friends, or a glass of wine with dinner when my wife and I have a date night. My alcohol usage in the past wasn't so much of a "once it hits my lips I can't stop", but more of a "this is normal behavior". I am in the process of filling out the 8500-8 and while I want to be completely honest on the form, I also don't want to divulge more than I need to or should.

So, am I SOL on the medical? Will the only "flying" I'll ever do in X-Plane? I've been reading some of the other alcohol related threads in this board and it sounds like you're expected to be completely abstinent from all alcohol for the rest of your life if you've ever blown higher than a 0.15. I know I've made some incredibly stupid decisions in my life, but I've worked hard over the last 11 years to get my life to a good place. I haven't been in any trouble since 2006. Below is a breakdown of my history. Thanks in advance for any advice or insight.

Criminal/DUI History
August 2002 - Possession/Consumption of Alcohol Under Legal Age (Penalty - $730 fine)

September 2004 (sentenced 03/26/2007 because I did not address this in a timely manor [another stupid decision] ) -
  • DUI: Highest Rte of Alcohol (BAC .16+) 1st Off
  • Sell/Furnish Liquor Etc Minor
  • Careless Driving
  • Driving At Safe Speed
(Penalty - 3 days confinement, 1 year probation, 1 year license suspension, DUI classes, $3,341.00 in fines)

December 2005
  • Possession of drug paraphernalia (hypodermic needle)
  • Open container of alcohol in motor vehicle
(Outcome - Entry into a pretrial diversion program in March of 2006 for 1 year. Similar to probation. Weekly drug testing and reporting to pretrial officer)

February 2006 - Driving After License Suspended or Revoked (Penalty $533 fine) [Not sure if I need to include this on the 8500-8 since there was no suspension and in NJ it looks like this is a traffic offence, not a criminal offence] - license was suspended for failure to pay a fine for a traffic ticket

June 2006 - Drinking in Public - (Penalty - $251 fine)

September 2006 - Disorderly Conduct (Penalty - $658 fine)


Driver License Suspensions
02-18-2006 to 5-22-2006 (Failure to pay fine from traffic ticket)
09-19-2006 to 06-12-2007 (Failure to pay fine from June 2006 incident)
DUI Sentence imposed 03/26/2007. License restored this year due to a paperwork mix up.
 
I'd contact Dr. Bruce Chien. Seems like your history shows a pattern but I'm no expert. Dr Bruce can give you better advice.
 
Wow. I'm only qualified to say, "Don't turn in that 8500-8 until you have a real consult."
 
Yeah, I would definitely say there's a pattern. It's kind of like when you're a kid and you just want to eat candy all the time, but you grow up and realize that, it's OK once in a while, but there there is a point where too much of a good thing turns it bad. I'm just hoping that my past decade of doing the right thing and staying out of trouble can show that those issues are in my past, not my future.
 
I think you are screwed. You have both a >.15 DUI and a drug offense - a syringe no less.
The FAA will view this a 2 major infractions. Add to that public intox charges. I would not start flight training until you get medical.
 
Yeah, I have a feeling that I'm screwed too. I'm going to reach out to Dr. Bruce Chien like Jordane93 suggested. I might have to do some more research on going the Sport route, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it with all the limitations. Sometimes I look at how I turned my life around wish I could go back in time to tell myself to just hang in there, things will get better. And sometime I wish I could go back to kick the s**t out of myself for the situation I put myself in.

I completely understand where the FAA is coming from though. My wife is trying to tell me to not worry, that stuffs in the past. But, I have explain to her that it doesn't matter. It puts my judgement into question and this is something where mistakes can cost lives.
 
First: stop everything like they told you: DO NOT apply. Contact Dr. Bruce Chien. IF there is a pathway it is expensive and will take a long time. You will need to stop ALL drinking forever. No such thing as social drink 3 times a month. (Someone else may correct me but I'm pretty sure this is the case.) You will need to demonstrate that you have a sea change in attitude. You will need to spend a few thousand on qualified psychiatric testing and this must be done by approved HIMS psychiatrists. You will need to attend regular meetings (AA or NA?).

The most important thing I've heard Dr. Chien say is that you must GET IT. If you jump through these hoops because you want to fly but are being insincere it won't work. You have to be for real about RECOVERY. Unfortunately addiction is a lifelong disease and you cannot fly unless you continually, actively, stay in recovery. Make sense?

Dr. Chien will tell you if you are screwed and it won't be worth undergoing the process. If that's the case, you do not want to apply and be denied by the FAA because of the sport pilot option you mention. If there is a way he will guide you through it. Best of luck!
 
Without complete abstinence, you don't stand a chance of getting a medical with your history of substance abuse.
 
I haven't submitted anything yet and don't plan to until I can get some clarification on what will be required of me. I understand you can meet the Sport med requirements with a valid DL UNLESS you have ever been denied a medical so I'm not going to move forward with anything and burn that path just yet.

I completely understand that addiction is a disease, But, there is a difference between addiction and habit. I spent ages 18-23 abusing substances. And was addicted to some hard stuff, stuff I haven't touched in over a decade, and will never touch again. I couldn't hold down a job (think I had 13 different jobs in that time frame), my relationship with my parents was contentious, and all I really cared about was hanging out with friends getting messed up. My life was going absolutely nowhere. I abused alcohol not because I was addicted to it, but because I had destructive learned behaviors on how to use it. I used it to replace the addictive substances I used rely on. My two year break from it was a period when I learned how to live without having substances in my life and I successfully did that. I've only had two jobs in the last 10 years (left the first one for a better on), saved up with my wife and bought a house, and have gotten in zero trouble. Who I was is not who I am today. I've had devastating moments, like when my wife lost our baby, but I didn't revert back to old patterns because I know that would solve nothing I'm able to enjoy a drink with friends, just as you probably are and not have life spiral out of control (or not, I don't know you).

I'm not trying to argue with you and tell you you're wrong, because for someone that has an addiction the words you wrote are 100% correct. I live by them with the substances I was addicted to. I know the above sounds like "the drunk trying to justify continued drinking", but I assure you it's not. I know the FAA is going to want concrete proof that I'm not a risk, and there will be hurtle to overcome and hoops to jump through if this is something I really want. I guess its going to be a decision I will have to make. I'll reach out to Dr. Chien to seek his opinion on the situation. I really do appreciate the responses and hope things work out OK. I've overcome some huge obstacles to get what I want in life, and I guess this will just be another one to clear.
 
Yeah, the problem with all this is there is no such thing as an "ex" addict. Perhaps our plucky OP is the exception to the rule, truly anything is possible. But because he is the exception he will be treated like the rule. That means he will be regarded as an addict whether or not he is one. Hence he'll have to go way, way way out of his way to act like a non addict. That includes total abstinence from alcohol and everything else.

The attitude sounds healthy. Just another hurdle is a good way to look at it. But I suspect it will be one heck of an expensive hurdle. Then again, in the grand scheme of things aviation is really isn't that much. I just read a fellow's account of $20K for his first annual. Yeah, hoops to demonstrate sobriety don't seem that bad.
 
Guest said:
I haven't submitted anything yet and don't plan to until I can get some clarification on what will be required of me. I understand you can meet the Sport med requirements with a valid DL UNLESS you have ever been denied a medical so I'm not going to move forward with anything and burn that path just yet.

I completely understand that addiction is a disease, But, there is a difference between addiction and habit. I spent ages 18-23 abusing substances. And was addicted to some hard stuff, stuff I haven't touched in over a decade, and will never touch again. I couldn't hold down a job (think I had 13 different jobs in that time frame), my relationship with my parents was contentious, and all I really cared about was hanging out with friends getting messed up. My life was going absolutely nowhere. I abused alcohol not because I was addicted to it, but because I had destructive learned behaviors on how to use it. I used it to replace the addictive substances I used rely on. My two year break from it was a period when I learned how to live without having substances in my life and I successfully did that. I've only had two jobs in the last 10 years (left the first one for a better on), saved up with my wife and bought a house, and have gotten in zero trouble. Who I was is not who I am today. I've had devastating moments, like when my wife lost our baby, but I didn't revert back to old patterns because I know that would solve nothing I'm able to enjoy a drink with friends, just as you probably are and not have life spiral out of control (or not, I don't know you).

I'm not trying to argue with you and tell you you're wrong, because for someone that has an addiction the words you wrote are 100% correct. I live by them with the substances I was addicted to. I know the above sounds like "the drunk trying to justify continued drinking", but I assure you it's not. I know the FAA is going to want concrete proof that I'm not a risk, and there will be hurtle to overcome and hoops to jump through if this is something I really want. I guess its going to be a decision I will have to make. I'll reach out to Dr. Chien to seek his opinion on the situation. I really do appreciate the responses and hope things work out OK. I've overcome some huge obstacles to get what I want in life, and I guess this will just be another one to clear.
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I didn't read your whole response but the FAA isn't going to issue someone with your history a medical certificate unless you're completely abstinent. Something you'll have to consider.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, the problem with all this is there is no such thing as an "ex" addict. Perhaps our plucky OP is the exception to the rule, truly anything is possible. But because he is the exception he will be treated like the rule. That means he will be regarded as an addict whether or not he is one. Hence he'll have to go way, way way out of his way to act like a non addict. That includes total abstinence from alcohol and everything else.

The attitude sounds healthy. Just another hurdle is a good way to look at it. But I suspect it will be one heck of an expensive hurdle. Then again, in the grand scheme of things aviation is really isn't that much. I just read a fellow's account of $20K for his first annual. Yeah, hoops to demonstrate sobriety don't seem that bad.
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There are a lot of people who are ex-addicts. The concept of perpetual recovery is nonsense.
 
Brad Z said:
I didn't read your whole response but the FAA isn't going to issue someone with your history a medical certificate unless you're completely abstinent. Something you'll have to consider.
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And, I think, you need to prove abstinence through random testing.

Maybe find a glider club nearby and get your PP-glider?
 
Yeah, I've done a little bit of reading and that sounds like that might case with the random testing. I guess the first step (or second step after speaking with Dr. Chien) would be to get a substance abuse evaluation from an addiction specialist familiar with FAA standards. I just hope they can see me for who I really am and not just lump me into a statistical pile.
 
Guest said:
Yeah, I've done a little bit of reading and that sounds like that might case with the random testing. I guess the first step (or second step after speaking with Dr. Chien) would be to get a substance abuse evaluation from an addiction specialist familiar with FAA standards. I just hope they can see me for who I really am and not just lump me into a statistical pile.
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That's the end result of going through all of the effort of records gathering, psychological testing, random whiz quizzes, and ongoing abstinence proof gathering. And doing it with the methods and professionals proscribed by the FAA.

Something pointed out that bears repeating... none of this is gonna happen quick, easy, or in-expensive. It will be difficult, cost a significant amount of out of pocket money, and will take a long while before you can submit anything to the FAA. Dr. Bruce Chien can help, but only if you are ready to 100% ready to go all the way to the end. Also keep in mind he has very little patience to folks who are untruthful and waste his time.
 
Guest said:
Yeah, I've done a little bit of reading and that sounds like that might case with the random testing. I guess the first step (or second step after speaking with Dr. Chien) would be to get a substance abuse evaluation from an addiction specialist familiar with FAA standards. I just hope they can see me for who I really am and not just lump me into a statistical pile.
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In theory you could jump through all the hoops (I think it involves two years of proving abstinence), get you SI medical, let it lapse, and fly under BasicMed if you can find a doctor to sign the form after you've checked yes to the boxes for substance/alcohol abuse and DUI. Then you could go back to having the occasional drink if you can really handle it.
 
Thanks AggieMike. Yeah from everything I have read this is going to be an arduous task. Right now I've got $10k earmarked for my flight training, but it looks like some of that is going to get burned up in this process. Guess I'll have to see how much and if it's a cost my wife and I are comfortable parting with for me to pursue this hobby. I'm currently in the process of trying to join a local flying club, but I'm going to put that on hold to see how this pans out. I did disclose the big issues in my application with them (DUI >.15 and the needle) so I hope they understand. I'm going to try to gather up all the records I can regarding my past indiscretions as to not waste any of Dr. Chien's time when I do reach out to him. Right now I have certified dispositions for all of my infractions, but the FAA is probably going to want police reports as well. I completely understand him having zero tolerance for liars. I want to make sure I do this right, which is why I've been completely honest on this thread with my past and the fact that I do use alcohol (responsibly) now. Junkies lie, and that's not me anymore.

I hope this all works out, but if it doesn't I guess I can take up basket weaving :)
 
Are there really very many SP rental options? I sort of had the feeling the rentals were so limited that owning was about the only way to go?

I mentioned gliders earlier. SSA.org has a "where to fly" link that shows clubs:

http://www.ssa.org/WhereToFly
 
Guest said:
I'm not trying to argue with you and tell you you're wrong, because for someone that has an addiction the words you wrote are 100% correct. I live by them with the substances I was addicted to. I know the above sounds like "the drunk trying to justify continued drinking", but I assure you it's not.
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Not to be a jerk, but this is exactly what Dr. Bruce talks about with "getting it". This is what every single addict who doesn't get it says. Every. Single. One.
 
Guest said:
But, there is a difference between addiction and habit.
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Yes that may be true, and everything else you said is to discuss with your psychiatrists to determine what exactly you are. No one here can say whether you are an "addict" now or ever were. You don't need to defend it to us. Addict, or just a youthful substance abuser, the terminology is irrelevant at this point. As Steingar says your legal record has enough in it to prove you had a problem of severe enough nature to disqualify you from certification.

For what it's worth, I believe you, but to the FAA that makes no difference. You have to play by their rules. Something you might not be considering is that while your life is going smoothly you have no desire to go back to regular over-use of alcohol, but as you get older if a stressful time hits, you might go back to that "habit". Also, it is common for people who use substances to have an underlying disorder that was never recognized or diagnosed. You already have the insight to know you were self medicating bad feelings. If those feelings are caused by the onset of a depression or other psychological disorder, that too will be uncovered by psychiatric examination. Such a disorder may or may not by itself be disqualifying.

Just see what Doc Bruce says. Do you know how to contact him? He may be able to give you a quick answer. If not and he wants you to send him all your records there is a consult fee but it is well worth it; he is probably the single foremost AME in the whole country when it comes to difficult certifications, and even if the answer is "no way" you will know that you have gotten the straight answer.
 
If you can prove the abstience [via testing] and get a HIMS eval and show you have turned your life around from 10 years ago - you'll be ok.

Contact Bruce - and disclose it all.

The FAA will want you to jump through the AA hoops and do all the stuff you should have done 10 years ago - they're used to seeing kids who got caught - they know about the 18-25 year olds who didn't.

Getting popped for DUI and public intox means you had built up a tolerance and were doing stupid things.

Having it all be 10 years in the past means - that - well - it was ten years ago.

Assuming you now have a job or a degree and a career- and have shown responsibility since then - it will all work out.

Start gathering medical and legal info from that time - you need your court files - DMV files - and residence history - get a DMV record from every place you lived going back to getting your license.

You will need it all - might as well get it -

Call Bruce - pay his fee up front - and get what he tells you to get - you'll get a medical.

and if you don't do it all - you won't. Simple as that. Don't ARGUE with Bruce - he's not about being with you or against you - YOU must demonstrate what you need to demonstrate in order to get a medical. Period. Its not about being cool or being understanding or any of that - its about demonstrating that you get what you need to get in order to satisfy the FAA you are in recovery. End of story. Nothing else matters- right? You want to fly - right?
 
Guest said:
Yeah, I've done a little bit of reading and that sounds like that might case with the random testing. I guess the first step (or second step after speaking with Dr. Chien) would be to get a substance abuse evaluation from an addiction specialist familiar with FAA standards. I just hope they can see me for who I really am and not just lump me into a statistical pile.
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You'll need to demonstrate abstinence for a while - but once you have the medical - and once you have kept the SI - you can then simply switch over to Basic Med and fly there - Assuming you can complete this process and are under 40 [which seems likely] then your medical lasts 5 years with perhaps the SI requiring drug and alcohol testing at random intervals to keep it valid. At the end, you can simply switch over to basic med -

You have to understand one point though -

anyone who can drink to the point where they can blow in excess of 0.15 has had some practice drinking. You have a tolerance - and developing that tolerance means you have tolerated an awful lot of alcohol - much more than I ever could - which means you have a psychological addiction - and you need to acknowledge that fact - and that it can happen again with the right triggers. No one is an addict for life - addiction both a behavior and a physical event - and you can change the emotional side of the equation - but the physical side is something you will have forever. Keep in mind and be honest with who you are - your wife loves you - the FAA doesn't. Keep that distinction in mind -=
 
Thanks everyone for the replies and this feeling I've been punched in the stomach lol.

@mryan75, no hard feelings, I do get it. If every addict says I don't have a problem, and every responsible drinker says I don't have a problem (which for the majority and most recent time I have been [past 7-8 years]), is every responsible drinker and addict (logic puzzle lol) Just trying to be a smart a** there, no disrespect.

Sorry if I sounds defensive in some of my replies, I not trying to be. I really am taking this all in and agree 100% with where you guys are coming from with your advice and it is valued. I completely see where the FAA is coming from with the requirements they have put in place. I know I messed up in the past and if I want to fly, I'll have to prove myself. That's fair. I'll get in contact with Dr. Bruce today or tomorrow and see what he says.
 
Guest said:
I did disclose the big issues in my application with them (DUI >.15 and the needle) so I hope they understand.
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Hold up a moment.... in what application to whom? Are you saying that you have already filled out the MedXpress form and have seen an AME for a "live" exam?
 
No, I was referring to the application for membership to a local flying club. I was saying I was going to put get my application for that put on hold, and I disclosed the major parts of my history to them. I began filling out the 8500-8 online, but stopped once I got to the medical history section. I didn't even type anything or check any boxed out of paranoia on what might be retained.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Hold up a moment.... in what application to whom? Are you saying that you have already filled out the MedXpress form and have seen an AME for a "live" exam?
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No I think he was talking about the local flying club.
 
comanchepilot said:
anyone who can drink to the point where they can blow in excess of 0.15 has had some practice drinking. You have a tolerance - and developing that tolerance means you have tolerated an awful lot of alcohol - much more than I ever could - which means you have a psychological addiction - and you need to acknowledge that fact - and that it can happen again with the right triggers.
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Respectfully, this is just crap. Half the kids at state universities would be addicts according to this definition, yet the vast majority of them leave that level of ingestion behind once they graduate.

The FAA notion that "tolerance" == "addiction" is just a bunch of BS. That kind of thinking, along with culturally accepted - but hopelessly wrong - notions about recovery that AA puts out there are a big part of the reason why real addicts find it difficult to find help that is actually effective.

The sooner AA is wiped off the face of the planet the better off addicts will be in terms of finding treatments that actually work and the culture will be in terms of how it views addiction and recovery.

And to respond to some of the responses that I'm sure will be made:

1) No, I'm not saying there are no addicts. Just that not everyone who has a tolerance and a record of having made bad decisions is an addict.

2) I'm not saying that AA has never helped anyone. Just that a 95% failure rate is a terrible foundation upon which to build what most of society views as the only path to recovery.

3) I'm not saying that blowing a .15 is *healthy*. Just that tolerance doesn't equal addiction. I would encourage anyone with enough of a tolerance to blow a .15 to change their habits, whether those habits are based in addiction, because they are in a frat or work at a bar, because that's not a long term sustainable path from a health perspective.

4) None of this changes that the OP is facing an FAA with rules that are based on an antiquated understanding of addiction and that, if he wants to fly, he has to abide by those rules.

A good starting point for learning about the cult of AA is here: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surprising-failures-of-12-steps/284616/
 
172andyou said:
Respectfully, this is just crap. Half the kids at state universities would be addicts according to this definition, yet the vast majority of them leave that level of ingestion behind once they graduate.

The FAA notion that "tolerance" == "addiction" is just a bunch of BS. That kind of thinking, along with culturally accepted - but hopelessly wrong - notions about recovery that AA puts out there are a big part of the reason why real addicts find it difficult to find help that is actually effective.

/
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I have not been to college in 35 years - but I have known a few matriculants since then - and no one that I know is alcohol and drug tolerant.

To be able to blow in excess of 0.15 means you have tolerance. You don't have to believe it - but its true. I dare anyone to pick a young adult at random at a college and have them ingest alcohol to 0.15 - have the randomly selected student be conscious. Unless they have a tolerance. You do NOT develop a tolerance binging one night a week - or even two. You are drinking every single day. For most of the day.

Now - as for the rest of the doubt- I'm not an addict. Never been one. But I have known many. And they all need psychological support. ALL of them. Because they have a psycho and physiological problem - Illness, weak character - whatever you want to call it.

The FAA - who is the medical gatekeeper here - tells us that steps 1-12 or whatever they are - is what they want to see. It doesn't matter what I think about it - thems the steps. Follow them, believe them - or not. But thems the steps. I will agree with Bruce that unless the miscreant acknowledges the existence of a problem that renders unable to qualify for a medical - and that THEY are the problem - they'll never satisfy the steps, rules whatever you want to call it.

There are processes out there that have been shown to work. That's why addicts adopt them. You don't have to believe in them - but if you are an addict - you better find a way to convince the FAA you are serious.
 
For what it's worth, I just checked a BAC calculator and for a 150lbs male (about my weight in my scrawnier days) 6 Budweisers and 2 shots over the course of 5 hours would bring your BAC to .15

Definitely not saying I didn't have a problem, but one of the things I learned is that your BAC really sneaks up on you. That's why when I do go out it's either a cab or staying the night at a friends house. Even if it's just a couple of beers. The "I feel fine" scale is a horrible barometer.
 
Regardless of anyone's personal opinions on addiction or recovery, you've got to meet the FAA's standards if he wants to fly. If he wants to continue to casually drink, that's fine, he just needs to find another activity other than flying.

The FAA has a "low tolerance" for alcoholic pilots and congress has a low tolerance for alcoholic pilots. The FAA docs look at hundreds of medical applications a year from folks who have a alcohol violation, but claim they don't have a problem. Do you want to be the one to explain to them why their process or reasoning for determining substance abuse is flawed? No? I didn't think so.
 
Guest said:
No, I was referring to the application for membership to a local flying club. I was saying I was going to put get my application for that put on hold, and I disclosed the major parts of my history to them. I began filling out the 8500-8 online, but stopped once I got to the medical history section. I didn't even type anything or check any boxed out of paranoia on what might be retained.
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"I did disclose the big issues in my application with them (DUI >.15 and the needle) so I hope they understand."

STOP!

Do not put anything in writing to anyone EXCEPT Dr Bruce and/or who he recommends to you.
Do not SAY anything to anyone EXCEPT Dr Bruce and/or who he recommends to you.

There's a difference between honesty and foolishness. It is foolish to tell the flying club or anyone else about your problems until Dr. B has the opportunity to discuss your options.
 
Guest said:
For what it's worth, I just checked a BAC calculator and for a 150lbs male (about my weight in my scrawnier days) 6 Budweisers and 2 shots over the course of 5 hours would bring your BAC to .15

Definitely not saying I didn't have a problem, but one of the things I learned is that your BAC really sneaks up on you. That's why when I do go out it's either a cab or staying the night at a friends house. Even if it's just a couple of beers. The "I feel fine" scale is a horrible barometer.
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Yeah, and 6 beers and 2 shots is a lot of alcohol to drink, even over 5 hours. If you disagree, you might have a problem. If you still "feel fine" after drinking that much, you may have a tolerance.
 
comanchepilot said:
I have not been to college in 35 years - but I have known a few matriculants since then - and no one that I know is alcohol and drug tolerant.
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Then you know a remarkable group of young people. Having just finished putting our kids through college at two different schools I can assure you that a *huge* percentage of college kids are tolerant of alcohol.

comanchepilot said:
To be able to blow in excess of 0.15 means you have tolerance. You don't have to believe it - but its true.
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Never said otherwise. What I said was that tolerance and addiction are different things. I also said that someone who is tolerant to the point of blowing a .15 and still being highly functional should reform their habits because even if they aren't addicted that level of ingestion was unsustainable from a health perspective.

comanchepilot said:
Now - as for the rest of the doubt- I'm not an addict. Never been one. But I have known many. And they all need psychological support. ALL of them.
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100% agree. And they don't need to be told they are powerless. They don't need to be told that only god (sorry, "higher power") can heal them. The don't need to be made to feel a failure if they mess up. A year with four failures (which is 99% better than they were doing before) shouldn't be viewed as a general failure.

comanchepilot said:
The FAA - who is the medical gatekeeper here - tells us that steps 1-12 or whatever they are - is what they want to see. It doesn't matter what I think about it - thems the steps.
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Yes. I said this also. Did you only read the first paragraph of my response?

comanchepilot said:
There are processes out there that have been shown to work. That's why addicts adopt them.
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This is false. AA doesn't work. Addicts adopt them because they are told they must. The FAA tells them that. Their employer tells them that. Their doctor tells them that. That's the entire point of my screed. AA doesn't work and the FAA is wrong to build policy on a foundation of lies. If someone said to a cancer patient "hey, you are powerless and need to pray for recovery" they would be laughed out of the room. But that's the AA approach to addiction. It isn't 1935 anymore. There is no excuse to be using prayer based treatment as the principle treatment for addiction (or cancer, or diabetes, or depression, or ...)
 
Brad Z said:
Yeah, and 6 beers and 2 shots is a lot of alcohol to drink, even over 5 hours. If you disagree, you might have a problem. If you still "feel fine" after drinking that much, you may have a tolerance.
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I agree that's too much, my point was more to the fact that it's not "put you in a coma" too much. You're still plenty capable to inflict a lot of damage, tolerance or not.
 
murphey said:
"I did disclose the big issues in my application with them (DUI >.15 and the needle) so I hope they understand."

STOP!

Do not put anything in writing to anyone EXCEPT Dr Bruce and/or who he recommends to you.
Do not SAY anything to anyone EXCEPT Dr Bruce and/or who he recommends to you.

There's a difference between honesty and foolishness. It is foolish to tell the flying club or anyone else about your problems until Dr. B has the opportunity to discuss your options.
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And this really points to the big issue and why there are all these hoops to jump through. Because everyone feels the need to lie and be deceitfully. Its come to the point where integrity=stupidity. I'm not trying to be glib here, but where is the foolishness in disclosing this to the club. I did these things, there are records. For me to not disclose any of this on the 8500-8 would be lying on the form and risking my house and freedom. Flying isn't worth that price. I did reach out to Dr. Bruce, and I hope he can help me. I guess that's why I'm here posting anonymously, because I am afraid of putting too much out there.
 
@172andyou - I never referenced AA -0 EVER - what I said was that there are processes which help addicts. Period. The FAA wants to see the various programs - I make no assumption if they work or not - what I'm saying is that if you need a crutch then you need a crutch. and if it works - then it works.
 
Guest said:
I agree that's too much, my point was more to the fact that it's not "put you in a coma" too much. You're still plenty capable to inflict a lot of damage, tolerance or not.
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just because you CAN get to 0.15 does not mean when you get there that you can 1) walk, or 2) remain conscious. You can drink alot of liquor in a short or a long period of time - if you do it over a short period you can get to higher levels of bac - which are meaningless if you are either not conscious or don't have meaningful consciousness. Just because a calculator has number does not guarantee you are conscious enough to understand what it feels like.
 
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