The Path to Sober

  • Thread starter Thread starter Alcohol Is The Enemy
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TCABM said:
You forgot to quote the pertinent part of 67.107.

Mental standards for a first-class airman medical certificate are:

(a) No established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:

That same language is present in .207 for second-class and .307 for third-class.

Does your “normy” wife have established medical history or diagnosis for substance dependence? If not, then the FAA cares not.

Since there’s no specific definition for established medical history in Title 14, you can look up what constitutes an established medical history.

Words really do mean things.
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True. If in practice this is accurate, then okay. But seems in reality it’s you that has to prove otherwise and in odd circumstances. If a single DUI can put you in HIMS, I don’t think that’s evidence of a trend or medical history.

www.the-independent.com

‘Drunk’ United pilot forced into rehab for alcoholism actually had concussion

Exclusive: Capt. Mike Tallon was sent for inpatient treatment, attended AA meetings, and blew into a breathalyzer twice daily, when he says he should have been treated for head trauma
www.the-independent.com www.the-independent.com
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
…If a single DUI can put you in HIMS, I don’t think that’s evidence of a trend or medical history.
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Doesn’t matter what you think, it matters what’s in the regulation. For the sake of being thorough, the FAA has a decision tree to follow.


In summary, no; not every DUI requires a full HIMS protocol with monitoring. It all comes down to what evidence is presented by the applicant and any specialists that may be involved. If there’s a lack of satisfactory evidence, what should the agency do since they are charged with certifying medical histories that comply with Part 67.
 
TCABM said:
Doesn’t matter what you think, it matters what’s in the regulation. For the sake of being thorough, the FAA has a decision tree to follow.


In summary, no; not every DUI requires a full HIMS protocol with monitoring. It all comes down to what evidence is presented by the applicant and any specialists that may be involved. If there’s a lack of satisfactory evidence, what should the agency do since they are charged with certifying medical histories that comply with Part 67.
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I agree it doesn’t matter what I think. But the FAA also often ignores what actual addiction specialists think/professional opinions and use their own folks to evaluate based upon their own metrics/definitions vs. clinical professional who do nothing but addiction treatment/psychiatric practices. The latter isn't opinion, it's real world personal experience.

Go back to the OP. Should they be required to go through HIMS or not? They are self correcting, have come to the responsible conclusion, and could be grounded for a long time or indefinitely when there are plenty of people flying in similar or even more dire substance abuse conditions but will never seek help and the FAA is none the wiser. Responsibility should not be met with overreactive and/or punitive measures. Doing the right thing and seeking treatment without other legal or meaningful consequences should not necessitate, again in my opinion, 9-12 months of grounding, testing and such costing upwards of $10K.

I'm not seeking to get into a back and forth. I'm happy to be a minority on this matter. I just think in many instances these resources and requirements could be used on more clear cases. The cases are nuanced, so should be the solutions.

Based upon many posts here, it seems the worst case is always played out.

I'd love to hear of cases where this isn't true. I'd find that encouraging.
 
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
… Go back to the OP. Should they be required to go through HIMS or not?
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Acknowledging I don’t know what is in the OPs medical history and given only the facts at hand, at this time, I cannot identify anything that is required to be reported.

[
UTLonghorn_1979 said:
…

I'd love to hear of cases where this isn't true.
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There’s some threads here and elsewhere like that.
 
TCABM said:
Acknowledging I don’t know what is in the OPs medical history and given only the facts at hand, at this time, I cannot identify anything that is required to be reported.
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That's already been covered up thread. Knowing you have a condition requires disclosure, even without a formal diagnosis.
 
Near as I can tell skimming, the original poster hasn’t received a DUI, or had any run in with authorities over drinking. Yes, maybe called in sick in hungover at times, getting closer to messing up one’s career. I see the handful of programs mentioned.

What the O.P. needs to do is turn the ship himself, towards better waters. There are plenty of examples of what NOT to do in this area. Pilots are supposed to be somewhat smart, at least a little. Yes, one can do a course correction without joining a program. I’m sure there are shelves of books, videos, and even online support groups.

I wouldn’t highlight myself, but I’d fix the issue so the career stays intact. To some maybe that sounds to vague or unrealistic, many alternatives are much worse. If you get to the person where change is impossible, maybe it would be time to exit. I think that would be a rarity.

I know one guy who had trouble years ago, had to change his life. That included no alcohol or similar in the house and a whole new set of friends. After that, activities where drinking wasn’t included, with those new friends that were supporting.
 
TCABM said:
HIMS exists because a pilot union needed some of its dues paying members to be able to keep their job (and therefore keep paying their dues) after showing up drunk to work.

Prove me wrong.
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I mean that’s sort of silly. Those members are easily replaceable with other dues-paying members. That’s a pretty cynical take. Whether anyone can “prove” you wrong is just internet nonsense, but GMAFB.
 
mryan75 said:
I’ve read the posts that follow and will absolutely not make light of this, but for me personally I’m perfectly fine drinking the Heineken with 0.04% or whatever it may be. If I were in a program run by the federal government that involved me not drinking to keep my job, I absolutely would NOT drink NA’s. That said I’d say I’ve had 3 of them at one time and it had no noticeable effect on me and has never given me any inclination to drink a “real” beer. But this is very much to everyone to decide for themselves.
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In the Coast Guard, we have this ridiculous standard of 12 hours bottle to throttle that INCLUDES N/As. The mental gymnastics HQ must have used to put that one in the manual is typical of a federal government agency.
 
I've been away from this post for a few days and just caught up this morning. Following with great interest. I'm always curious when there's a discussion around alcohol because limits or what can be considered "moderation" varies wildly with culture.

Like a few others have mentioned in this post, I enjoy beer...a lot. However, I can turn it off like a light. I have far too many responsibilities to allow for my enjoyment of beer to ruin any of it. In the Coast Guard, a DUI is treated in the same category as murder and child abuse. Actually, you'd have a better chance of being retained in the service if you SA'd someone than getting a DUI. I've worked way too hard and sacrificed way too much to get to where I am in my career to throw it in the can bin. But I digress....

Maybe I'm getting older but what I have seen regarding folks choosing to drink NAs (including my second in command) is nothing but understanding and appreciation if not outright support and jealousy. I'd go so far to say to the OP that if the fellas you're hanging out with when drinking give you any flak for choosing an NA, you need to choose better friends. I sure as hell don't judge nor should anyone else. As for me, as soon as they start selling NAs in cases I'll be the first one in line. There are tremendous options now including some really good local micros.

Lastly, I'd offer to the OP based on what I've seen and had to deal with as a supervisor in a naval military service - don't be so quick to self-diagnose. To me, it sounds like you certainly have a weakness but you have significantly more control than the vast majority of people around you. Good on you for recognizing a potential problem and seeking options. Don't beat yourself up. A ton of great suggestions have been offered here. Best of luck to you as you sort this out.
 
Tools said:
Beer is 4%, some na beers are LOW alcohol, .04%, or .0004. Vanilla extract is much higher. LOTS of things have more than that.

And yes, for NOT drinking alcohol.

It scares me when people confuse hims with some sort of recovery benefit. It ain’t… if you find some benefit in it, great, good for you, just know that was not the intention!

It’s a for profit scam. One we gotta deal with, but it ain’t saving the public, it ain’t saving pilots, and wrecks more than it helps.

Funny how a hims AME recently caught covering up his wrongdoings with a hims client (and lost a malpractice lawsuit) is still heralded yet some vets lied on medexpress and went to jail. This system ain’t out there to help pilots…

Form your own opinions, but for the love of all that’s holy, PROCEED CAUTIOUSLY.
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What was the AMEs name? I was told about this but want to follow up. If the OP sees this message avoid HIMS at all costs. Your mental Health and wallet will be in better shape.
 
Don’t know if I even know… have to check my notes. The guy was 121 if that puts it in perspective.
 
It isn't much, but 2 weeks with no alcohol and no anxiety about it. Maybe a little boredom at times but that's it. I have got a long way to go but it is a start.

Thank you for the pointers everyone. I'm trying to course correct on my own first but will change tack if I have any discipline issues sticking to it. So far OK.
 
4 weeks alcohol free. No urges to drink.

Friends gave me a little grief about not drinking during a recent birthday outing but they get it. I stuck with the NAs and they did the trick.

It will feel good to get a month under my belt but still in the beginning of a long process.

I'll post progress here as I go as a form of self accountability. Strange because it's anonymous I know but it helps.
 
Alcohol Is The Enemy said:
4 weeks alcohol free. No urges to drink.

Friends gave me a little grief about not drinking during a recent birthday outing but they get it. I stuck with the NAs and they did the trick.

It will feel good to get a month under my belt but still in the beginning of a long process.

I'll post progress here as I go as a form of self accountability. Strange because it's anonymous I know but it helps.
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Started AA meetings and at first thought it was a bunch of BS as I stopped drinking myself without it. Later discovered it's not just about being able to stop it's a lifelong program (you really never "finish") that will help you stay on the straight and narrow. Not to mention a support group to help you along the route. Aside form alcohol, the program will make you discover your own short comings, which obviously is a net gain.

No urge to drink you say? Why the NA drinks?
 
Alcohol Is The Enemy said:
Friends gave me a little grief about not drinking during a recent birthday outing but they get it. I stuck with the NAs and they did the trick.
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You need new friends. But in the short term, pour the NA into a glass and it looks like any other beer.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Why not?
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Half Fast said:
You need new friends. But in the short term, pour the NA into a glass and it looks like any other beer.
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I guess we can over look the fact the "non-alcohol" beer actually has alcohol... NA has less than 0.5% ABV sure, but I would say you are still drinking just a lower ABV beverage. Next the suggestion will be down a 6 pack and you will pass an alcohol test. IMO if you are drinking NA beer to get sober, well that's a great example of an oxymoron.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
I guess we can over look the fact the "non-alcohol" beer actually has alcohol... NA has less than 0.5% ABV sure, but I would say you are still drinking just a lower ABV beverage. Next the suggestion will be down a 6 pack and you will pass an alcohol test. IMO if you are drinking NA beer to get sober, well that's a great example of an oxymoron.
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I would add that if you’re drinking non-alcoholic alcohol as a substitute for drinking alcohol you’re setting yourself up for failure.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
IMO if you are drinking NA beer to stay sober, well that's a great example of an oxymoron.
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Depends on how you define "sober".

If you define it as no alcohol enters your body, then you are right. But I guess that also means ripe bananas are off limits.

If you define sober as "not intoxicated", then NA beer would seem to be a very good method, since it is physically impossible to consume enough NA beer fast enough to get intoxicated.

I have no experience in this area, since my only addiction is ice cream, but it seems foolish to me to tell someone not to do something that can help them cope with challenging situations.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
NA has less than 0.5% ABV sure, but I would say you are still drinking just a lower ABV beverage.
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Orange juice can have up to 0.5% ABV. Having a glass of OJ is hardly the same as downing a vodka screwdriver. Sure, if you're stupid enough to drink 10 NA beers, or 10 glasses of OJ, you might have a problem.

Are we required to wait 8 hours before flying if we drink a glass of orange juice with breakfast?
 
I understand what you all are saying. When I say sober what I really truly mean is I don't want to get drunk.

Maybe the na beers are a bad idea I don't have enough experience to know. I had three of them over the course of a six hour get together. No way I could have been considered intoxicated inebriated or any other drunk adjective. They had no more effect on me than water. Perhaps in time I will not even want to have those I don't know.

Maybe it's a bad idea to have them at all maybe it's a baby step in the rightish direction. All I know is that for that particular night it helped me avoid the temptation to have a real beer. And then another. And another. For that night it was mission accomplished for my goal.
 
Half Fast said:
Sure, if you're stupid enough to drink 10 NA beers, or 10 glasses of OJ, you might have a problem.
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And your liver eliminates 2% BAC per hour, equivalent to one 5% beer or 10 NA beers. So you would have to drink them FAST.

By my math, you would have to chug 50 near beers in one hour to exceed the DUI limit.

One NA beer would be cleared by your liver in 6 minutes, so if you drank slower than that, it would never hit your brain in more than trace amounts.
 
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Alcohol Is The Enemy said:
I understand what you all are saying. When I say sober what I really truly mean is I don't want to get drunk.

Maybe the na beers are a bad idea I don't have enough experience to know. I had three of them over the course of a six hour get together. No way I could have been considered intoxicated inebriated or any other drunk adjective. They had no more effect on me than water. Perhaps in time I will not even want to have those I don't know.

Maybe it's a bad idea to have them at all maybe it's a baby step in the rightish direction. All I know is that for that particular night it helped me avoid the temptation to have a real beer. And then another. And another. For that night it was mission accomplished for my goal.
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I don't know much about all of this, but from my novice view it sounds like you're staying sober and have a plan that's working for you.

One thing I *do* know is that there's going to be people out there who seem like they're trying to help you, but they're really more interested in having you follow THEIR plan, whatever that plan is. Probably mostly out of what they believe to be right, and maybe right for them, but not necessarily right for everybody.

Not to be religious about it, but I knew a preacher who had a saying - you figure out what your own sense of spirit is, and do that.
 
Half Fast said:
Orange juice can have up to 0.5% ABV. Having a glass of OJ is hardly the same as downing a vodka screwdriver. Sure, if you're stupid enough to drink 10 NA beers, or 10 glasses of OJ, you might have a problem.

Are we required to wait 8 hours before flying if we drink a glass of orange juice with breakfast?
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  • Orange juice contains trace, naturally occurring fermentation alcohol — it’s incidental and unavoidable in fruit sugars.
  • NA beer is intentionally brewed as an alcoholic beverage first, then alcohol is reduced.
That distinction matters psychologically and behaviorally.

Drinking orange juice is not participating in drinking culture.
Drinking NA beer is deliberately engaging in alcohol-associated behavior.

If they’re the same, why don’t we serve orange juice at happy hour and toast with it?
 
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DeltaCharlie172 said:
  • Orange juice contains trace, naturally occurring fermentation alcohol — it’s incidental and unavoidable in fruit sugars.
  • NA beer is intentionally brewed as an alcoholic beverage first, then alcohol is reduced.
That distinction matters psychologically and behaviorally.

Drinking orange juice is not participating in drinking culture.
Drinking NA beer is deliberately engaging in alcohol-associated behavior.

Clearly, the wise pilot would error in the side of logic not excuse IMO.
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Baloney. Regardless of whether the alcohol is “unavoidable” or “intentionally brewed,” the same amount of alcohol is in each beverage. The person is still consuming 0.5% ABV alcohol either way. It doesn’t matter how it got there.

Furthermore, drinking NA beer is deliberately NOT engaging in alcohol consumption and thereby making a wise choice.

Now if you’ll excuse me for a moment, I’m going to go pour myself a glass of Shiraz.
 
Half Fast said:
Baloney. Regardless of whether the alcohol is “unavoidable” or “intentionally brewed,” the same amount of alcohol is in each beverage. The person is still consuming 0.5% ABV alcohol either way. It doesn’t matter how it got there.

Furthermore, drinking NA beer is deliberately NOT engaging in alcohol consumption and thereby making a wise choice.

Now if you’ll excuse me for a moment, I’m going to go pour myself a glass of Shiraz.
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AA / Recovery Perspective:
AA and addiction experts treat any intentional alcohol consumption as a risk. NA beer, even with low alcohol content, is designed to mimic beer in taste, smell, and ritual, which can trigger cravings or relapse. In contrast, orange juice contains only incidental, naturally occurring alcohol and is not associated with alcohol consumption behavior.

FAA / Aviation Safety Perspective:
FAA prohibits flying within eight hours of drinking or with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.04% or higher. Aviation safety culture emphasizes eliminating all avoidable risk, not relying on “probably fine” assumptions. Even NA beer can contain up to 0.5% ABV and is legally produced as an alcoholic beverage, whereas orange juice is not.

I hear what you’re saying — it’s just beer without alcohol — but that completely misses the purpose of sobriety, which is to avoid not just intoxication but the sights, tastes, and rituals that can trigger old habits.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
AA / Recovery Perspective:
AA and addiction experts treat any intentional alcohol consumption as a risk. NA beer, even with low alcohol content, is designed to mimic beer in taste, smell, and ritual, which can trigger cravings or relapse. In contrast, orange juice contains only incidental, naturally occurring alcohol and is not associated with alcohol consumption behavior.

FAA / Aviation Safety Perspective:
FAA prohibits flying within eight hours of drinking or with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.04% or higher. Aviation safety culture emphasizes eliminating all avoidable risk, not relying on “probably fine” assumptions. Even NA beer can contain up to 0.5% ABV and is legally produced as an alcoholic beverage, whereas orange juice is not.

I hear what you’re saying — it’s just beer without alcohol — but that completely misses the purpose of sobriety, which is to avoid not just intoxication but the sights, tastes, and rituals that can trigger old habits.
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I understand your argument. I just don’t find it convincing.
 
DeltaCharlie172 said:
Aviation safety culture emphasizes eliminating all avoidable risk, not relying on “probably fine” assumptions. Even NA beer can contain up to 0.5% ABV
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Your liver eliminates the alcohol from one NA beer in 6 minutes. It takes 5 NA beers to raise your BAC by 0.01%. Please describe an NA consumption scenario where one could operate an aircraft even remotely close to the FAA limit.

DeltaCharlie172 said:
AA / Recovery Perspective:
AA and addiction experts treat any intentional alcohol consumption as a risk. NA beer, even with low alcohol content, is designed to mimic beer in taste, smell, and ritual, which can trigger cravings or relapse.
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For those who are alcoholics, the AA perspective makes sense, and I fully defer to your views on NA beer for them. But not everyone who wants to quit or reduce drinking is an alcoholic.

Many people wish to reduce or eliminate alcohol from their life due to negative behaviors such as binge drinking, or are concerned they are on the path to alcoholism.

For those people, NA beer may provide a coping measure to avoid consuming in situations where they feel tempted or pressured. It sounds like the OP did just that. Good for him.
 
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Just a thought... The Beer Institute’s Advertising & Marketing Code covers its membership (nearly all US brewers), these major brewers (and many smaller ones that join voluntarily) market both alcoholic and non-alcoholic beer only to adults of legal drinking age because the brand and imagery are tied to adult drinking culture. Aside form that studies in addiction recovery show that exposure to alcohol cues (sight, smell, or taste) can increase the risk of relapse, even if the drink has no alcohol.

Sound like a preacher now... But ever hear the stories of Bill, Mark or Jim? Or Mary's, Peggy's, or Anne's?
 
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