The Path to Sober

[Dana]

Aside form that studies in addiction recovery show that exposure to alcohol cues (sight, smell, or taste) can increase the risk of relapse, even if the drink has no alcohol.

I can definitely see that being a problem for some people, others may have no trouble. My wife is 35 years sober and she enjoys NA beer occasionally. My neighbor, too, quit drinking, almost always has a Busch NA in his hand, though he also smokes a lot of weed. There's also NA beer with THC now, which could be a whole 'nother can of worms...

 

[172andyou]

In other words, a fully autonomous car is a much simpler robotics application compared to, say, a humanoid.

AA / Recovery Perspective:
AA and addiction experts treat any intentional alcohol consumption as a risk. NA beer, even with low alcohol content, is designed to mimic beer in taste, smell, and ritual, which can trigger cravings or relapse. In contrast, orange juice contains only incidental, naturally occurring alcohol and is not associated with alcohol consumption behavior.

I'm happy to see that you phrased it that way, since AA is not a great program and is not run by addiction experts, but an outdated set of rules that modern research has improved dramatically.

Now that said, some people like the taste of beer. There is no reason for them to not have an NA if that helps them enjoy a cold bev without having to turn in their chip.

I hear what you’re saying — it’s just beer without alcohol — but that completely misses the purpose of sobriety, which is to avoid not just intoxication but the sights, tastes, and rituals that can trigger old habits.

That's a very extreme view. While it might be true for some people, it's very AA to insist that there is only one path that works and everyone must walk it. Turns out tons of people are capable of going golfing with the boys, going to birthday parties or attending weddings without doing a full on belly flop back into active drinking.

 

[robin ardoin]

NA beer is not recommended for a recovering alcoholic. Agreed and I have seen the results several times with my own and other’s sponsees. However, the OP has not stated that he is an alcoholic. I see no issue if he can lead a happy, healthy life avoiding alcohol and drinking na beer on the occasions when he would normally drink alcohol.

 

[mryan75]

It isn't much, but 2 weeks with no alcohol and no anxiety about it. Maybe a little boredom at times but that's it. I have got a long way to go but it is a start.

Thank you for the pointers everyone. I'm trying to course correct on my own first but will change tack if I have any discipline issues sticking to it. So far OK.

First of all, CONGRATS! You’re sober. Good for you!

Thoughts: don’t think in terms of weeks, think in terms of today. Don get ahead of yourself. You don’t “have a long way to go”, you just have today to go.

And I may have mentioned this before, but one of my favorite sayings about drinking is: Drinking alcohol is giving up everything else for one thing. Quitting drinking is giving up one thing for everything else.

The boredom is real, but it subsides. And it’s replaced by a million things you used to not have time for.

 

[mryan75]

I'm happy to see that you phrased it that way, since AA is not a great program and is not run by addiction experts, but an outdated set of rules that modern research has improved dramatically.

I wish people would stop with this crap. Whatever helps someone stop drinking is good, and AA has helped millions and millions of people do just that. I will never understand the point of this holier-than-thou attitude about it.

 

[mryan75]

4 weeks alcohol free. No urges to drink.

Friends gave me a little grief about not drinking during a recent birthday outing but they get it. I stuck with the NAs and they did the trick.

It will feel good to get a month under my belt but still in the beginning of a long process.

I'll post progress here as I go as a form of self accountability. Strange because it's anonymous I know but it helps.

Day by day, baby. Good for you!!!

 

[mryan75]

I understand what you all are saying. When I say sober what I really truly mean is I don't want to get drunk.

Maybe the na beers are a bad idea I don't have enough experience to know.

I would say don’t let people get you into word games. What you mean is you want to be sober; you ARE sober. I haven’t drank in 14 months. Do I drink NA’s? Yep. Do I drink alcohol? Nope. I have absolutely zero ethical question about whether I drink; the answer is no.

You don’t have to justify yourself to anyone. What you’re doing is working. Stick with it brother.

 

[Ed Haywood]

BTW I just found out that I am probably a non-drinker as of this past weekend. I wound up in the ER with diverticulitis. Flare up was a few days after a long bourbon session at the airfield with a close friend. Google says spirits can cause flare ups. I made it to 60 without surgery and I'm not keen to have a section of my intestine removed. Rather than parse types of drinks, I'm leaning towards just saying goodbye to it all. Before that I had gone 2 months without beer or wine, and it helped me lose 20 pounds. Well, that and no ice cream!

Claiming medical issues is a pretty good way to shut down social pressure.

 

[172andyou]

Whatever helps someone stop drinking is good

Exactly. Why some people insist that AA is the only way is a puzzle.

BTW I just found out that I am probably a non-drinker as of this past weekend. I wound up in the ER with diverticulitis. Flare up was a few days after a long bourbon session at the airfield with a close friend. Google says spirits can cause flare ups. I made it to 60 without surgery and I'm not keen to have a section of my intestine removed. Rather than parse types of drinks, I'm leaning towards just saying goodbye to it all. Before that I had gone 2 months without beer or wine, and it helped me lose 20 pounds. Well, that and the ice cream!

Yikes! Yeah, don't mess around with that! I didn't know booze was a trigger for that, it was bad enough knowing that nuts and most of the veggies I like were on the list.

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

That's a very extreme view. While it might be true for some people, it's very AA to insist that there is only one path that works and everyone must walk it. Turns out tons of people are capable of going golfing with the boys, going to birthday parties or attending weddings without doing a full on belly flop back into active drinking.

Considering we are speaking of sobriety in the context of the FAA... I would agree total abstinence is extreme and many people can live responsibly having a drink, but the FAA says otherwise in some cases.

At the same time, nearly every alcoholic has the same mind set - they are in control of their drinking! The OP didn't spell out his exact reasoning for sobriety but did say "my habits are putting me on a collision course with serious consequences!" NOT to mention he signed off as "An alcoholic." No rocket science here.

§61.53 – Prohibition on operations during medical deficiency. A pilot may not act as PIC if they: Know or have reason to know of a medical condition that would make them unable to meet medical requirements. Alcohol Use Disorder (ie. being an alcoholic) is considered a disqualifying condition.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

You need new friends.

IMHO it's hard to say without knowing the messaging to/from the friends.

If you show up and say "I'm not drinking anymore" with no other context -- you might raise eyebrows and catch some ribbing because they don't understand the sudden change. That's not that they're bad friends, this might just be new behavior out of someone they've known for years (or decades) and they're not sure if this "change" is something serious, or if it's just a temporary health fad you're trying on for size. Especially if you're the bigger drinker/partier in the group -- it might come as sort of unbelievable to them.

But if you're genuine w/your friends and tell them (preferably before they start drinking so they're sober and receptive) you've made a conscious, deliberate, and borderline spiritual decision to quit drinking so you can stop yourself on a downward spiral that you feel is ruining your happiness and threatening the most important aspects of your life, if you're upfront with your friends about that and show your intention and sincerity, you probably won't catch that kind of flak.

And if they still give you **** then yeah, you definitely need new friends.

 

[Ed Haywood]

IMHO it's hard to say without knowing the messaging to/from the friends.

If you show up and say "I'm not drinking anymore" with no other context -- you might raise eyebrows and catch some ribbing because they don't understand the sudden change. That's not that they're bad friends, this might just be new behavior out of someone they've known for years (or decades) and they're not sure if this "change" is something serious, or if it's just a temporary health fad you're trying on for size. Especially if you're the bigger drinker/partier in the group -- it might come as sort of unbelievable to them.

But if you're genuine w/your friends and tell them (preferably before they start drinking so they're sober and receptive) you've made a conscious, deliberate, and borderline spiritual decision to quit drinking so you can stop yourself on a downward spiral that you feel is ruining your happiness and threatening the most important aspects of your life, if you're upfront with your friends about that and show your intention and sincerity, you probably won't catch that kind of flak.

And if they still give you **** then yeah, you definitely need new friends.

IMO in this day and age, anyone who hears "I'm not drinking anymore" from a friend and does not react with unreserved support is of suspect character, or possibly needs help themselves.

Look at all the posts of support on this thread. People know what is right.

 

[172andyou]

Considering we are speaking of sobriety in the context of the FAA... I would agree total abstinence is extreme and many people can live responsibly having a drink, but the FAA says otherwise in some cases.

I was referring to the notion that NA beers and other triggers, well, in your words "completely misses the purpose of sobriety, which is to avoid not just intoxication but the sights, tastes, and rituals that can trigger old habits."

Tons of people in recovery have learned how to be in triggering environments without drinking booze.

I don't find the idea that an alcoholic should consider life long abstinence to be in any way extreme.

But knowing many people in recovery that still work, for example, in bars and restaurants while sober speaks volumes to the fact that no one path is the correct one for everyone. Not everyone has to give up bowling night with their buddies just because they quit drinking and I think it's extreme to suggest that's the case. Hell, there are dry camps at burning man and that's about as triggering an environment as could possibly exist.

I also acknowledge there is another group of people that needs to replace alcohol addiction with meeting addiction if they are going to stay sober. Again. No one path is correct for everyone.

 

[Half Fast]

Not everyone has to give up bowling night with their buddies just because they quit drinking and I think it's extreme to suggest that's the case.

In fact, I can imagine that for some people, the more things they give up, the stronger the urge to go back becomes.

 

[Ed Haywood]

In fact, I can imagine that for some people, the more things they give up, the stronger the urge to go back becomes.

I would guess there is probably a severity factor there. For full blown alcoholics, I can see where severing themselves from problem environments is the only way. For "problem drinkers", coping strategies such as NA beer on nights out with the friends probably increases the odds of sticking with it.

 

[Half Fast]

I would guess there is probably a severity factor there. For full blown alcoholics, I can see where severing themselves from problem environments is the only way. For "problem drinkers", coping strategies such as NA beer on nights out with the friends probably increases the odds of sticking with it.

You and I should go on an ice cream binge sometime....

We need a database of airports with ice cream parlors within walking distance.

 

[172andyou]

In fact, I can imagine that for some people, the more things they give up, the stronger the urge to go back becomes.

Yeah, fair point.

I would guess there is probably a severity factor there. For full blown alcoholics, I can see where severing themselves from problem environments is the only way. For "problem drinkers", coping strategies such as NA beer on nights out with the friends probably increases the odds of sticking with it.

I personally know multiple full blown alcoholics who are dry and still work in bars and restaurants because it's their career. I don't think it's the degree of addiction as much as the personality quirks we all have. There are so many dimensions.

I also know one, off the top of my head, that is now a garbage man because he couldn't be in bars anymore. Just got reconnected with him actually. He's doing amazingly in his new life.

I guess musicians are another example. There are tons of musicians that got sober and still work in triggering environments. Some have been sober for decades. Some have super detailed riders that need to be followed to keep them safe from themselves. Others are still down for a good hang, they just do it sober. Others have failed, sometimes tragically.

 

[Ed Haywood]

You and I should go on an ice cream binge sometime....

We need a database of airports with ice cream parlors within walking distance.

Arcadia FTW!

Google Search

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

The $100 ice cream...

 

[Half Fast]

Arcadia FTW!

Google Search

Back in the '80s, I worked with an engineer who was close to retirement. He was an ex fighter jock who flew in Vietnam and his wife had worked for the DoD, where they met. They decided that when they retired they wanted to get as far away from military work as they could, so they planned to open an ice cream parlor for a retirement gig. For years, whenever they'd travel (business or vacation) they made it a point to sample local ice creams, looking for the best flavor for their future parlor.

Eventually they did retire and they opened an ice cream place in a shopping village on International Drive in Orlando. I used to stop by for ice cream whenever I went out for lunch, and they had a wonderful time with it. After a few years, they retired for real and closed up shop, but ice cream gave them lots of fun for lots of years.

 

[robin ardoin]

Exactly. Why some people insist that AA is the only way is a puzzle.



Yikes! Yeah, don't mess around with that! I didn't know booze was a trigger for that, it was bad enough knowing that nuts and most of the veggies I like were on the list.

Very few people insist that AA is ‘the only way’; contrary to your statement and, obvious opinion, AA’s own literature emphatically states that ‘we hold no monopoly’ on the treatment of alcoholism. AA is a great program. It has saved more lives than any other treatment method. You obviously have not been involved with a healthy AA community (there are such unhealthy ones). You are welcome to visit me anytime. I can show you around a fantastic and thriving AA community and you can talk to many miracles that are on this earth leading happy and productive lives as a result of following twelve simple, but not easy, steps. People who speak poorly of AA have only been exposed to unhealthy groups and are ignorant to a well AA community.

 

[robin ardoin]

The $100 ice cream...

Go ahead…twist my arm.

 

[Tools]

§61.53 – …..

Alcohol Use Disorder (ie. being an alcoholic) is considered a disqualifying condition.

The faa does not use dsm criteria, so that doesn’t pass muster.

They don’t mention alcoholism either I don’t think, which also isn’t a thing anymore.

I believe they use their own version of alcohol abuse or alcohol dependent.

This is pedantic, but considering an administrative agency is making a pedantic mockery of a real problem, it’s necessary.

Bottom line, get help that helps. DO NOT trust an inept administrative agency ESPECIALLY in this venue.

 

[mryan75]

I think it is absolutely the case that everyone has to do it their own way. I know a guy in recovery (for decades) and is literally scared turdless to go into a bar. I’m not in recovery but decided on my own to quit drinking. And I drank. More than my fair share. I can sniff bottles of single malt that are still in my liquor cabinet and there is absolutely zero interest on my part in drinking it. There are definitely people I wouldn’t recommend doing that, and it’s not something I do with any regularity (we had family over and someone wanted a glass, so I took a sniff). I felt absolutely nothing. The switch has been turned off, thank God. Literally.

 

[172andyou]

People who speak poorly of AA have only been exposed to unhealthy groups and are ignorant to a well AA community.

Wrong.

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

The faa does not use dsm criteria, so that doesn’t pass muster.

They don’t mention alcoholism either I don’t think, which also isn’t a thing anymore.

I believe they use their own version of alcohol abuse or alcohol dependent.

This is pedantic, but considering an administrative agency is making a pedantic mockery of a real problem, it’s necessary.

Bottom line, get help that helps. DO NOT trust an inept administrative agency ESPECIALLY in this venue.

Agree that the FAA has there own definition which is a much lower bar than the DSM definition... I would say if you self-diagnosis yourself as "an alcoholic" that is a medical deficiency.

61.53(a) – Prohibition on operations during medical deficiency
A person who holds a current medical certificate may not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person: (1) Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation.

67.107 / 67.109 - Medical standards for 1st & 2nd / 3rd class
person must not have: (1) Alcohol dependence (i.e., current addiction to alcohol) (2) Any condition that would interfere with the safe exercise of airman privileges.

I do not see how a basic reading of the regulations and a self-diagnosis of being an alcoholic means anything less than medical deficiency.

 

[Tools]

Alcohol dependence IS NOT a current addiction to alcohol.

If you EVER had three beers when you meant to have two… sign yourself up. … among a thousand other not medical problems.

I know what you mean. Not being argumentative about that. Just making the point hims is profiteering. It’s enabled by administrative buffoonery. It’s got NOTHING to do with the airmen, his issues, or public safety.

If someone was helped, great. But that ain’t why it’s there, don’t count on that. It’s run by greed and ego. This is a lot of years eliminating EVERYTHING else. I can’t eliminate those, they are what’s left.

DO NOT let them get in the way of expertise or care. They don’t provide either. Find those however is necessary. Deal with the admin administratively, and appropriately prioritized.

It ain’t Federal Aviation we give a crap about you… it’s federal aviation ADMINISTRATION. Do you know any other administrative organizations that might trump care and expertise in a medical field?

 

[Albany Tom]

I can self-identify as a penguin, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean if I visit the Boston aquarium that the staff are going to throw fish at me.

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

I can self-identify as a penguin, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean if I visit the Boston aquarium that the staff are going to throw fish at me.

Maybe not in Boston but try that on the west coast... You might get your own tank and plenty of fish!

 

[Ventucky Red]

Alcohol dependence IS NOT a current addiction to alcohol.

The statement is inaccurate because alcohol dependence represents an active and ongoing addiction to alcohol, characterized by compulsive use, tolerance, and withdrawal symptoms. In clinical terms, DSM-5 consolidates the historical concept of “alcohol dependence” within the broader diagnosis of Alcohol Use Disorder (AUD), which reflects a continuum of current pathological alcohol use. Therefore, alcohol dependence is not distinct from addiction but rather a diagnostic manifestation of it, indicating a current and clinically significant substance use condition.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Quo

AA / Recovery Perspective:
AA and addiction experts treat any intentional alcohol consumption as a risk. NA beer, even with low alcohol content, is designed to mimic beer in taste, smell, and ritual, which can trigger cravings or relapse. In contrast, orange juice contains only incidental, naturally occurring alcohol and is not associated with alcohol consumption behavior.

FAA / Aviation Safety Perspective:
FAA prohibits flying within eight hours of drinking or with a blood alcohol concentration of 0.04% or higher. Aviation safety culture emphasizes eliminating all avoidable risk, not relying on “probably fine” assumptions. Even NA beer can contain up to 0.5% ABV and is legally produced as an alcoholic beverage, whereas orange juice is not.

I hear what you’re saying — it’s just beer without alcohol — but that completely misses the purpose of sobriety, which is to avoid not just intoxication but the sights, tastes, and rituals that can trigger old habits.

Quotation of the FAA regarding substance abuse discredits your position.

 

[Alcohol Is The Enemy]

46 days so far and doing well I think

I am still having non alcoholic beers at social occasions and i do not have a desire to have actual beer. Strange to think this is the longest period in my adult life I haven't had booze. A good thing though I think

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

46 days so far and doing well I think

I am still having non alcoholic beers at social occasions and i do not have a desire to have actual beer. Strange to think this is the longest period in my adult life I haven't had booze. A good thing though I think

One Day at a Time! Great job...

Were you considering AA? I know it was talked about and IMO it's a pretty neat program (I was like "it's bogus, I stopped drinking totally on my own").

Someone had mentioned the "God" aspect of it, and frankly that's not really what AA teaches when they talk of a Higher Power. Instead, the ‘Higher Power’ idea is just a way to help people admit they need help from something outside their own willpower—whether that’s the group, the recovery program, or a personal idea of spirituality. That's where a High Power "as we understood Him" comes from... It's to really acknowledge if we believe in something (outside help) we may be influenced by it.

Aside from alcohol, the program will make you take a deeper look at yourself and that self-reflection has a toll on your everyday life, a toll in a good sense. I thought I would just hop through the steps ("there's only 12!" I said) but if you take the time to fully grasp the program it's a lifelong commitment and you actually re-visit steps. For over 1 year working the steps, I have finally made it to step 8, getting there was not easy. I was totally abstinent for over 1 year before AA but I can see how going to have a drink could lead to another and another quite easily. And that's where having someone to call (sponsor or another AA) really comes to play.

Anyways, I can rant all day like a preacher (pun intended) about AA, which is odd because just over 1 year ago I would have laughed at the idea of going to AA.

Not sure where you are located but I do a lot of Zoom-type meetings with the Seattle AA group because twice weekly meetings are hard to attend in-person.

Seattle AA: https://www.seattleaa.org/meetings/
General AA: https://www.aa.org/find-aa

46 days sober is a milestone and you should be proud! Stay sober one day at a time. You did it 46 times now.

 

[flyingron]

46 days so far and doing well I think

I am still having non alcoholic beers at social occasions and i do not have a desire to have actual beer. Strange to think this is the longest period in my adult life I haven't had booze. A good thing though I think

Congrats. But again, I empasize if you are being HIMS monitored, stay away from NA/0 alc beer. There still may be enough alcohol in there to give you a positive on the EtG tests.

 

[robin ardoin]

Congrats. But again, I empasize if you are being HIMS monitored, stay away from NA/0 alc beer. There still may be enough alcohol in there to give you a positive on the EtG tests.

^^^^^Those in the HIMS program, take this advice seriously.^^^^. As Dr. Chien prudently states, “Guard your urine”.

I understand that the OP is not in the HIMS program.

 

[wellknow]

if u want support for aa dm me. sober for many years

 

[Albany Tom]

46 days so far and doing well I think

I am still having non alcoholic beers at social occasions and i do not have a desire to have actual beer. Strange to think this is the longest period in my adult life I haven't had booze. A good thing though I think

Congrats! No suggestions. Just congrats.

 

[3393RP]

Agree that the FAA has there own definition which is a much lower bar than the DSM definition... I would say if you self-diagnosis yourself as "an alcoholic" that is a medical deficiency.

61.53(a) – Prohibition on operations during medical deficiency
A person who holds a current medical certificate may not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person: (1) Knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to meet the requirements for the medical certificate necessary for the pilot operation.

67.107 / 67.109 - Medical standards for 1st & 2nd / 3rd class
person must not have: (1) Alcohol dependence (i.e., current addiction to alcohol) (2) Any condition that would interfere with the safe exercise of airman privileges.

I do not see how a basic reading of the regulations and a self-diagnosis of being an alcoholic means anything less than medical deficiency.

This is your self interpretation. It has no validity.

 

[DeltaCharlie172]

This is your self interpretation. It has no validity.

I would say = opinion...

Opinion A: being an alcoholic is not acceptable to the FAA and is a medical deficiency.
Opinion B: being an alcoholic is acceptable to FAA and not a medical deficiency.

Reality? Let the FAA decide...

 

[Albany Tom]

You're talking about an agency that has 3 different definitions of "night" and that can defend them all, even though a baby learns the difference between night and day at about 2 months of age. Google says that a puppy knows night from day at about 4 months. The FAA was created from the CAA about 68 years ago. So give them some time with the night thing before expecting them to be able to tackle the harder problems. After all, 200x less cognitive ability than a puppy so far...which feels about right.

Or in other words logic and proportion, let alone mathematics, have nothing to do with an agency. Completely orthogonal. Anyone who believes otherwise has no experience either working with or in such a group. Apologies to Ms Slick, who is a bit of an optimist.

Agree about the dead horse part.