The Path to Sober

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This is something I will research. If I understood your post about HIMS assets versus HIMS program, would this be a voluntary type thing that doesn't immediately impact my medical? Or do I have to go on record with the AME as saying there is an issue and put that on my file?

It’s all “voluntary”. You will get the same treatment as a 121 pilot doing heroin… you will wind up with the same monitoring, same special issuance, same bills. FOR LIFE.

It’s especially the same because of self proclaimed DEPENDENCE. Be careful there, good thinking with the anonymity.

This ain’t rocket science. You got a good attitude. Read, act, re-evaluate. Lather rinse repeat.

Life AINT about surviving to the next day… that’s selling yourself short.

You might have to jump through hoops for faa later, you might not. Cross that bridge later. I just wouldn’t do anything NOW. Once YOU are stable, look at that can of administrative worms CAREFULLY.

Seek professional expert LEGAL advice, I would not listen to advice here that rings an unringable bell. It’s a ONE WAY street….
 
That’s a bucket load of BS. I have yet to see a person truly living the 12 steps of the AA program fail to stay sober and have a happy, productive life. Come down to Lafayette, LA and spend a week with me. See the lives rebuilt and the health restored. Like any program of disease recovery, if you don’t follow your doctor’s orders/take your medicine as prescribed, certainly you won’t get well and that is on you.
It definitely helps to have a program, support group, band of folks of common mind to run with. Doesn’t have to be AA, unless FAA mandated, but it’s certainly the easiest way to find community for those in recovery.
 
First, congrats to the OP for manning up and facing this. God speed!

Second, maybe at this time just focus on the AA, and stop flying, stop the FAA medical dance, let your medical expire, etc. When you're ready you can deal with Basic Med or whatever is appropriate.
 
IDK about you all. But whether AA is suitable for everyone or not is completely beside the point. Fighting about it on a thread like this is just bad form.

Knowing all the options available for the OP cannot possibly be a bad thing, right? I hope not. Addiction does not have a 1-size-fits-all solution.

From my own experience... I had a buddy who was sobering up ~5 years ago who used AA. For her it's worked great. She's entirely non-religious and while she's found some elements kinda uncomfortable, it's overall served her well. I had another friend who rejected that along with other treatment options. He's dead now, 2 years next month.

I think the most important thing is that you know what options are open to you so that you are supported. Choose the option that speaks to you and stick with it. If that path doesn't work, try another.
 
AA is close to useless if the person is not committed to recovery. But so is any other program.

AA or similar programs can be very effective if the person is committed to recovery. But so can other methods. What AA does is provide a support system and camaraderie during the process, for those who can stomach the style and the religious aspects (that's not a criticism; it's just not for everybody). What I have observed is that many reformed drinkers seem to substitute one addiction (alcohol) for another (nightly AA meetings). Some people are still going to daily AA meetings 10 years after their last drink. Whether that's just as much as an impact on their family life as drinking may be debatable, but they'll probably live longer.
 
It definitely helps to have a program, support group, band of folks of common mind to run with. Doesn’t have to be AA, unless FAA mandated, but it’s certainly the easiest way to find community for those in recovery.
Yup, certainly AA holds no monopoly in regards to treatment of alcoholism, and states such in their literature. It is one method that I have tried that works. The FAA acknowledges that it is the most successful treatment and has acted accordingly. They do seem to be more open to other treatment programs lately.
 
AA is close to useless if the person is not committed to recovery. But so is any other program.

AA or similar programs can be very effective if the person is committed to recovery. But so can other methods. What AA does is provide a support system and camaraderie during the process, for those who can stomach the style and the religious aspects (that's not a criticism; it's just not for everybody). What I have observed is that many reformed drinkers seem to substitute one addiction (alcohol) for another (nightly AA meetings). Some people are still going to daily AA meetings 10 years after their last drink. Whether that's just as much as an impact on their family life as drinking may be debatable, but they'll probably live longer.
Mostly true, AA is not a religious program but a spiritual based program; I have several atheistic friends in AA (hell, I was one for many years and agnostic until I decided to get sober). Several of my peer group have over 40 years of sobriety and we see each other at various meetings/mens group several times a week. Their spouses would definitely say the impact of their time spent in recovery has a great impact on their relationship...a beautiful and nourishing impact. :)
 
I drink too much. I enjoy beer, especially a hazy IPA. I too have thought about the consequences and I've cut back. I set a personal limit, but when you start drinking with friends, it's easy for someone to walk up with another round... and it's hard to pass up a free beer. I know for me, I can drink two or three, but if I drink four, I'm probably going to drink 6 or 7.

One big thing that has helped me cut back is non-alcoholic beer. I don't just drink because I like the way it makes me feel, I like the taste of beer. One local bar has a N/A IPA on draft now and I think there's going to be more and more N/A options. When sitting around with a friend at a bar, having a drink in my hand, even if it's N/A feels right.

As far as keeping it secret, or being embarrassed... we're drinking alcohol and it's addictive to some people. Nothing to be embarrassed about. My friends and I are all in our fifties and one friend only drinks N/A beer now. He even said pride makes him tell people he had to stop drinking because of stomach issues. Peer pressure in our fifties!!
 
Not sure if this will help OP, but I'll toss it out with that intent. I rarely have a drink when I'm out. Sometimes I"ll have one beer, but mostly not. It's just one thing to not have to worry about, and also I really find all IPA's the same and unlikable. Anyway, most of the time it's not a thing, but every once in a while someone asks about that. Usually at some contrived sort of social things with people that I'm not really friends with. "Hey, come on, why don't you have a drink?" kind of thing. I used to apologize for it, but more often than not I have a different take on that. I kinda lean into it a bit. I'll smile, and kinda look puzzled, and very quietly ask "Why is that any of your f**ng concern?" Which, in a social setting among peers, will 100% of the time result in a surprised reaction. Usually an apology, which I'll smile and accept, and sometimes with more words later, which I just ignore without expression. But it ends the discussion.

Most of the time now, though, if someone asks if I want a drink, at a party or whatever, and I say 'no thanks', that's all it is. And if it's family or people that really just don't mean any harm, I might say 'no, it just makes me sleepy'. But I have no problem questioning someone's purpose in talking to me if they're questioning my choice of beverage. And lately, maybe it's a more modern thing, there seems to be less hassle all the way around about it.

To the OP, congrats sincerely on figuring it out before you hurt somebody. Lots and lots of people don't do that. Hope you find a method that works for you to stop, and maybe it's just to say it out loud and stop, and that you do well.
 
One big thing that has helped me cut back is non-alcoholic beer.
That was huge for me. Heineken NA has zero alcohol and tastes just like Heineken. There are so many great NAs now, Peroni, Stella. Heck even Milwaukees Best NA is tasty. It’s very helpful to still be able to enjoy beer.
 
Not sure if this will help OP, but I'll toss it out with that intent. I rarely have a drink when I'm out. Sometimes I"ll have one beer, but mostly not. It's just one thing to not have to worry about, and also I really find all IPA's the same and unlikable. Anyway, most of the time it's not a thing, but every once in a while someone asks about that. Usually at some contrived sort of social things with people that I'm not really friends with. "Hey, come on, why don't you have a drink?" kind of thing. I used to apologize for it, but more often than not I have a different take on that. I kinda lean into it a bit. I'll smile, and kinda look puzzled, and very quietly ask "Why is that any of your f**ng concern?" Which, in a social setting among peers, will 100% of the time result in a surprised reaction. Usually an apology, which I'll smile and accept, and sometimes with more words later, which I just ignore without expression. But it ends the discussion.

Most of the time now, though, if someone asks if I want a drink, at a party or whatever, and I say 'no thanks', that's all it is. And if it's family or people that really just don't mean any harm, I might say 'no, it just makes me sleepy'. But I have no problem questioning someone's purpose in talking to me if they're questioning my choice of beverage. And lately, maybe it's a more modern thing, there seems to be less hassle all the way around about it.

To the OP, congrats sincerely on figuring it out before you hurt somebody. Lots and lots of people don't do that. Hope you find a method that works for you to stop, and maybe it's just to say it out loud and stop, and that you do well.
One thing I’ve also found now is that more and more people (usually quietly) ask you, “So how did you do it?”

The people who seem like they’re having fun aren’t always having fun.
 
That was huge for me. Heineken NA has zero alcohol and tastes just like Heineken. There are so many great NAs now, Peroni, Stella. Heck even Milwaukees Best NA is tasty. It’s very helpful to still be able to enjoy beer.

Not if you are in hims by the way… I know a guy being fired for that…
 
I’m not sure tasting just like Heineken is a good thing (half joking, half serious)
Hey, when it comes to the boom of microbrews that all taste the same save for how much hops you wind up chewing on, I like to say “Heineken wasn’t broken so far as I know”. The other thing is that Heineken in the U.S. is a lager and in other parts of the world it’s a Pilsner. If you’ve never had the Pilsner version you don’t know what you don’t know.
 
For not drinking alcohol?
I don't know about hims, but for the AA chapter I was most intimately familiar with, they said you were no longer abstaining because they contained small quantities of alcohol. The Heineken 0.0 mentioned about is .04%
 
I don't know about hims, but for the AA chapter I was most intimately familiar with, they said you were no longer abstaining because they contained small quantities of alcohol. The Heineken 0.0 mentioned about is .04%
I could see that. One beer .04. Then a six pack. Then......

You don't want anything to re light up those addition neuron pathways. (Not precise medical terms, but you know what I'm getting at).
 
Beer is 4%, some na beers are LOW alcohol, .04%, or .0004. Vanilla extract is much higher. LOTS of things have more than that.

And yes, for NOT drinking alcohol.

It scares me when people confuse hims with some sort of recovery benefit. It ain’t… if you find some benefit in it, great, good for you, just know that was not the intention!

It’s a for profit scam. One we gotta deal with, but it ain’t saving the public, it ain’t saving pilots, and wrecks more than it helps.

Funny how a hims AME recently caught covering up his wrongdoings with a hims client (and lost a malpractice lawsuit) is still heralded yet some vets lied on medexpress and went to jail. This system ain’t out there to help pilots…

Form your own opinions, but for the love of all that’s holy, PROCEED CAUTIOUSLY.
 
I could see that. One beer .04. Then a six pack. Then......

You don't want anything to re light up those addition neuron pathways. (Not precise medical terms, but you know what I'm getting at).

There’s some studies referenced in Harry Fingarette’s “Heavy Drinking” that counter that argument. It merely highlights we don’t really seem to know much about it. But it ain’t as simple as an allergy, nor does it seem to fit the definition of a disease. It seems to be SOMETHING, but not necessarily that.

The studies seem to show you’ll react to a drink as if it were alcohol if you THINK it’s alcohol more than you will if it IS alcohol and you don’t know it.

If I get stung by a bee and don’t actually know it happens, I seem to react anyway….

I love watching people get stoned drinking the popular apple pie moonshine… not knowing it’s so popular because you can dilute it down to Bailey’s strength, and make a killing. So getting totally smashed being amazed at how smooth it is… ya, cinnamon flavored koolaid with a splash of alcohol. “I can’t even taste the alcohol”… of course, it ain’t there! The studies seem correct.
 
I could see that. One beer .04. Then a six pack. Then......

You don't want anything to re light up those addition neuron pathways. (Not precise medical terms, but you know what I'm getting at).

Yep, that was the argument. Both a physiological slippery slope and an emotional one.
 
The studies seem to show you’ll react to a drink as if it were alcohol if you THINK it’s alcohol more than you will if it IS alcohol and you don’t know it.
Amazing what the brain can do…my wife reacts VERY badly to dairy. When she first discovered dairy-free dairy-like products, she still had some reaction until she trained her brain that the stuff was ok.
 
I don't know about hims, but for the AA chapter I was most intimately familiar with, they said you were no longer abstaining because they contained small quantities of alcohol. The Heineken 0.0 mentioned about is .04%
I’ve read the posts that follow and will absolutely not make light of this, but for me personally I’m perfectly fine drinking the Heineken with 0.04% or whatever it may be. If I were in a program run by the federal government that involved me not drinking to keep my job, I absolutely would NOT drink NA’s. That said I’d say I’ve had 3 of them at one time and it had no noticeable effect on me and has never given me any inclination to drink a “real” beer. But this is very much to everyone to decide for themselves.
 
I’ve read the posts that follow and will absolutely not make light of this, but for me personally I’m perfectly fine drinking the Heineken with 0.04% or whatever it may be. If I were in a program run by the federal government that involved me not drinking to keep my job, I absolutely would NOT drink NA’s. That said I’d say I’ve had 3 of them at one time and it had no noticeable effect on me and has never given me any inclination to drink a “real” beer. But this is very much to everyone to decide for themselves.
if you have to do randoms and/or soberlink test, not worth it.
 
… some sort of recovery benefit. It ain’t… if you find some benefit in it, great, good for you, just know that was not the intention!
HIMS exists because a pilot union needed some of its dues paying members to be able to keep their job (and therefore keep paying their dues) after showing up drunk to work.

Prove me wrong.
 
HIMS exists because a pilot union needed some of its dues paying members to be able to keep their job (and therefore keep paying their dues) after showing up drunk to work.

Prove me wrong.
Showing up drunk to work/fly is a far cry from getting hammered every weekend on your own time. I'm not saying either is good long term, I'm just saying it's an overreach for the FAA to be able to force treatment for the latter when it's not illegal in any other capacity.
 
Showing up drunk to work/fly is a far cry from getting hammered every weekend on your own time. I'm not saying either is good long term, I'm just saying it's an overreach for the FAA to be able to force treatment for the latter when it's not illegal in any other capacity.

You missed the point. HIMS was designed as an occupation program and yes, the FAA and your employer can require treatment acceptable to the company or agency as a condition of continued work or exercising certificate privileges.

What neither can do is require all employees to participate in a treatment program as a condition of employment.
 
You missed the point. HIMS was designed as an occupation program and yes, the FAA and your employer can require treatment acceptable to the company or agency as a condition of continued work or exercising certificate privileges.

What neither can do is require all employees to participate in a treatment program as a condition of employment.
No, I understand your point and it’s a valid one as means to help keep professional pilots in the air and also keep them accountable. Whether dues was the driver vs not ending a career otherwise, I’m not sure.

My point is making someone go through HIMS/designating someone as alcohol dependent, with as low a bar as an increase in tolerance over your lifetime, is an overreach.

Flying drunk and liking to drink are 2 entirely different things and should be treated as such, IMHO.
 
I don't know about hims, but for the AA chapter I was most intimately familiar with, they said you were no longer abstaining because they contained small quantities of alcohol. The Heineken 0.0 mentioned about is .04%
.04% is about how much alcohol is in a fresh orange, from natural fermentation.
Showing up drunk to work/fly is a far cry from getting hammered every weekend on your own time. I'm not saying either is good long term
I would suggest that a person who gets "hammered every weekend" has a significant alcohol problem.
 
…Flying drunk and liking to drink are 2 entirely different things and should be treated as such, IMHO.
They are. Unless someone writes “I like to drink” on their MedXpress application, the FAA has no idea anyone drinks unless the liking to drink resulted in one of a very small number of things.

1. 18.o. Alcohol dependence or abuse
For example: Select Yes if you have been diagnosed and/or treated in an inpatient or
outpatient setting for misuse of alcohol. Select Yes if you ever had a diagnosis of
alcohol use disorder. Select Yes for any and all positive alcohol tests whether administered at the federal, state, or local level, or by a private employer.

and/or

2. 18.v. History of (1) any arrest(s) and/or conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.

and/or

3. 18.x. Other illness, disability, or surgery
List any illness/illnesses or disability/disabilities not provided for in 18a-y. (Alcohol abuse is a disability covered under ADA whether in recovery or not).

and/or

4. 19. Have you visited any health professionals within the last 3 years?
1. Select Yes or No
-You are required to enter ALL visits to any health professionals (such as physician,
physician assistant, nurse practitioner, psychologist, psychiatrist, chiropractor,
clinical social worker, or substance abuse specialist, including an EAP employer-
sponsored specialist) for treatment, examination, or medical/mental evaluation.

Notice that liking to drink does not require a “yes”. Actual evidence that an impairment substantially impacted life activity is required.

Given that, when all you have is a hammer designed for a specific occupation, you may not see nails everywhere, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, your goose is going to get cooked.
 
Well, it was created as a means of getting them back to work in less than 2 years. It then morphed into a way to get guys back who probably shouldn’t get back (heroin addicts, serial relapsers (actual relapse, not unintentional contact), etc).

It is now simply profiteering, as demonstrated by THEIR OWN statistic of reaping a 10:1 return on investment.

It looks like the norm back is about 1 1/2 years minimum anyway, so it hasn’t really helped, other than they can pay their dues with fraudulent long term disability rather than being on unpaid leave.
 
If you don’t meet DSM 5 criteria, legitimately, which you don’t have to for hims… that’s fraud. And what is being researched by folks right now.
 
If you don’t meet DSM 5 criteria, legitimately, which you don’t have to for hims… that’s fraud. And what is being researched by folks right now.

Is that what every LTD program puts in there policy definition, because that’s what matters.

Harvey Watt has a loss of medical license provision for their extended LTD offering, for example.
 
They are. Unless someone writes “I like to drink” on their MedXpress application, the FAA has no idea anyone drinks unless the liking to drink resulted in one of a very small number of things.

1. 18.o. Alcohol dependence or abuse
For example: Select Yes if you have been diagnosed and/or treated in an inpatient or
outpatient setting for misuse of alcohol. Select Yes if you ever had a diagnosis of
alcohol use disorder. Select Yes for any and all positive alcohol tests whether administered at the federal, state, or local level, or by a private employer.

and/or

2. 18.v. History of (1) any arrest(s) and/or conviction(s) involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug; or (2) history of any arrest(s), and/or conviction(s), and/or administrative action(s) involving an offense(s) which resulted in the denial, suspension, cancellation, or revocation of driving privileges or which resulted in attendance at an educational or a rehabilitation program.

and/or

3. 18.x. Other illness, disability, or surgery
List any illness/illnesses or disability/disabilities not provided for in 18a-y. (Alcohol abuse is a disability covered under ADA whether in recovery or not).

and/or

4. 19. Have you visited any health professionals within the last 3 years?
1. Select Yes or No
-You are required to enter ALL visits to any health professionals (such as physician,
physician assistant, nurse practitioner, psychologist, psychiatrist, chiropractor,
clinical social worker, or substance abuse specialist, including an EAP employer-
sponsored specialist) for treatment, examination, or medical/mental evaluation.

Notice that liking to drink does not require a “yes”. Actual evidence that an impairment substantially impacted life activity is required.

Given that, when all you have is a hammer designed for a specific occupation, you may not see nails everywhere, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, your goose is going to get cooked.
From 14 CFR § 67.107(a)(4) (Class 1), § 67.207(a)(4) (Class 2), and § 67.307(a)(4) (Class 3):
“Substance dependence” means a condition in which a person is dependent on a substance as evidenced by:
(i) Increased tolerance;
(ii) Manifestation of withdrawal symptoms;
(iii) Impaired control of use; or
(iv) Continued use despite damage to physical health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning.

(i) pretty much ecompasses anyone that drinks regularly. My wife, who is married to an alcoholic and meets (i) and (iii), would be considered alcohol dependent, so this is a stupid metric as she’s as far from an alcoholic as an abstenant person. She’s a “normy.”
 
From 14 CFR § 67.107(a)(4) (Class 1), § 67.207(a)(4) (Class 2), and § 67.307(a)(4) (Class 3):
“Substance dependence” means a condition in which a person is dependent on a substance as evidenced by:
(i) Increased tolerance;
(ii) Manifestation of withdrawal symptoms;
(iii) Impaired control of use; or
(iv) Continued use despite damage to physical health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning.

(i) pretty much ecompasses anyone that drinks regularly. My wife, who is married to an alcoholic and meets (i) and (iii), would be considered alcohol dependent, so this is a stupid metric as she’s as far from an alcoholic as an abstenant person. She’s a “normy.”

You forgot to quote the pertinent part of 67.107.

Mental standards for a first-class airman medical certificate are:

(a) No established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:

That same language is present in .207 for second-class and .307 for third-class.

Does your “normy” wife have established medical history or diagnosis for substance dependence? If not, then the FAA cares not.

Since there’s no specific definition for established medical history in Title 14, you can look up what constitutes an established medical history.

Words really do mean things.
 
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