The incentives young aviators need....or not?

[DavidWhite]

I recently read this article on GAN about what young aviators "need" and according to the article it is "Fast planes, new friends and good food" While all of those things sound great I feel as if they are not addressing the underlying issues of why young people do not get involved with flying. Here is the article if anyone is interested.

http://generalaviationnews.com/2015...s-need-fast-planes-new-friends-and-good-food/

Until young people see flying as a valid career opportunity with decent jobs and pay right out of the gate, the average age will continue to climb and climb. In this economy how many young folks parents are willing to plop down $10k for a PPL? How many young people are motivated enough to do it on their own? How many young people would go $100k into debt for a job that if they're lucky will pay them $30k/yr and they'll have to live with their parents?


These are the hard questions we have to answer if we would like to see our hobby/profession continue to grow.

David White
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multi-Engine Land
Pt 135 Alaska Bush & Instructor Pilot
21 years old

 

[DavidWhite]

and more hot chicks. aviation definitely needs way more hot chicks.

 

[dmspilot]

I am currently working with a 17 year old who would make a great pilot but around 30 hours he just fell off a cliff. I can't seem to motivate him to fly more than a couple times a year now. I think he started to see it as a dead end, and it sort of is, for the reasons you gave.

 

[Catalo]

I recently read this article on GAN about what young aviators "need" and according to the article it is "Fast planes, new friends and good food" While all of those things sound great I feel as if they are not addressing the underlying issues of why young people do not get involved with flying. Here is the article if anyone is interested.

http://generalaviationnews.com/2015...s-need-fast-planes-new-friends-and-good-food/

Until young people see flying as a valid career opportunity with decent jobs and pay right out of the gate, the average age will continue to climb and climb. In this economy how many young folks parents are willing to plop down $10k for a PPL? How many young people are motivated enough to do it on their own? How many young people would go $100k into debt for a job that if they're lucky will pay them $30k/yr and they'll have to live with their parents?


These are the hard questions we have to answer if we would like to see our hobby/profession continue to grow.

David White
Commercial Pilot Airplane Single & Multi-Engine Land
Pt 135 Alaska Bush & Instructor Pilot
21 years old

I did it. I'm lucky and my parents funded it. The thought of living with them until I'm 30 because I won't be making a living wage isn't great but I love flying and that alone keeps me going. I'm 20 if that matters. Started at 17 got my ppl at 18. Comm single& multi at 19 along with mei.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

 

[DavidWhite]

I did it. I'm lucky and my parents funded it. The thought of living with them until I'm 30 because I won't be making a living wage isn't great but I love flying and that alone keeps me going. I'm 20 if that matters. Started at 17 got my ppl at 18. Comm single& multi at 19 along with mei.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

You and I are exceptions and not the rule.

 

[James331]

It's because it's expensive and kids are more and more lazy, if it's not nearly free, given out without much effort and very quick to complete, they'll just stick to their xbox.

As for the wages, you can do OK starting out if you're willing to move around and can think outside the box a little.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't think it is laziness or expense. Modern kids aren't any different some work hard for what they want. Modern parents spend stupid amounts of money on their kids. Simply none of them want to fly, and better food is not going to change that. Why is there no desire? Historically low-T?(fact that it is, dunno if it is causal.) Kids aren't interested in driving either. I think it is the rules and maybe the TV culture. 1980s TV was full of shows that had lots of cool cars and aircraft. Now it is just dumb white men being saved by women and minorities. Whatever, let GA die, it doesn't deserve to live.

 

[Sleepingsquirrel]

I am currently working with a 17 year old who would make a great pilot but around 30 hours he just fell off a cliff. I can't seem to motivate him to fly more than a couple times a year now. I think he started to see it as a dead end, and it sort of is, for the reasons you gave.

Show him this....

 

[Phoenix]

Show him this....

That is false beyond the motorcycle.
Read the article, those young people all have access to family owned airplanes. Good for them, but doesn't reflect reality.

 

[mscard88]

and more hot chicks. aviation definitely needs way more hot chicks.

Especially as Flight Attendants!

Took my 6 year old grandson up for the second time yesterday because he asked me to take him flying or buy a Mustang. Flying was cheaper!

Hope he remains interested. Taught my son to his PPL, be cool to do the same with grandson.

 

[SkyDog58]

That is false beyond the motorcycle.
Read the article, those young people all have access to family owned airplanes. Good for them, but doesn't reflect reality.

Well, the reason the motorcycle part might be true is that one rides it to work, school, etc. where other see it. So people know you have it. If you keep your flying or the fact you own an airplane a secret which many appear to do then the airplane illustration will of course be false.

 

[SkyDog58]

You and I are exceptions and not the rule.

I'd say that you are quite the exception, David.

 

[Phoenix]

Well, the reason the motorcycle part might be true is that one rides it to work, school, etc. where other see it. So people know you have it. If you keep your flying or the fact you own an airplane a secret which many appear to do then the airplane illustration will of course be false.

No. Chicks dig motorcycles. Chicks do not dig airplanes. Especially gross little airplanes you have to fly yourself.

 

[James331]

No. Chicks dig motorcycles. Chicks do not dig airplanes. Especially gross little airplanes you have to fly yourself.

Lol, well than you're not doing it right.


I've had quite the opposite experience.

The airplane might as well be called the closer, my first plane as well as my second plane have a 100% success rate

 

[Getonit]

It was a Mooney.....(as a new owner of one I think it should get me lots of chicks).....

 

[EppyGA]

We are working hard in our EAA Chapter to foster young adults along into aviation. For us it starts with Young Eagles. We first get to see the kids that truly have a desire for aviation there as they will keep coming back for another flight.

This year we started a ground school for the young folks (ages 14 and up) we have had around a half dozen regular attendees and we meet once a month. It is hard to meet more or for too long due to school and homework commitments.

Most recently we put a group of adult mentors together to work with some of our young folks in a builders program. They are currently working on an Ultra-Lite Pietenpol project and making good progress. The project was picked up from a gentleman that was a woodworker and had previously built four of these planes. His eyes are now failing him and building was not possible anymore so we got his fifth one that was in progress. The young folks are enjoying this and we have 6-10 that are participating in the program. These young folks are also earning $7.50 per hour towards flying credit. We currently have a deal with a flying club to rent their 150 for $75 an hour wet and we have several CFI's willing to donate time to training.

Our next step is in progress. One of our members created a corporate entity for a flying club and we have been granted 501(c)(3) status for it. Our intention is to be able to provide subsidized training for the young adults as they move forward in aviation. We will do this by seeking donations from local corporations.

I will spend a lot of time focusing on securing additional funding for these projects this year. The original funding to get going is a combination of a grant from Signature Flight in 2014 and contributions made to some memorial funds.

We are not the only program like this in the area. Our friend, Ron Alexander, has a similar program down at Peachstate Aerodrome in Williamson, GA and is having great success with it.

You can see about our building program at http://youth.eaa690.net

 

[ktup-flyer]

ROI is a big one. Not many CFI's around here either.

 

[Challenged]

How accurate would these negatives be in regards to being a professional pilot?

* Poor pay
* Poor hours
* No set schedule
* Esteem of being a pilot isn't what it once was
* Living out of a motel room most of the time
* It takes a lot of time to work your way up to making good money
* Difficult occupation if you want to raise a family

I'd say a plus would be having meaningless sex with flight attendants, but I don't think I can recall seeing an attractive flight attendant in the past 15 years or so.

I imagine there are a number of flying jobs where these negatives don't apply, but I bet a lot of people have the perception that the above issues are the norm.

 

[steingar]

Actually, I never thought about it in these terms. Consider the cost of training through the the Commercial and CFI certificates. Now think about the cost of a four year degree. In many cases those two numbers are the same. The only difference is the former are more likely to score one a job.

 

[JOhnH]

? How many young people would go $100k into debt for a job that if they're lucky will pay them $30k/yr and they'll have to live with their parents?

Embry Riddle new graduates earn an average of $63k and have about $47k debt.

Not great, but not as bad as portrayed.

I still prefer the method I used. Seven years (work & school) to get a 4 year degree at a great school (Not Embry Riddle) and graduated with zero debt.

 

[mohamedpac]

Actually, I never thought about it in these terms. Consider the cost of training through the the Commercial and CFI certificates. Now think about the cost of a four year degree. In many cases those two numbers are the same. The only difference is the former are more likely to score one a job.

Yup. Flying is challenging, and for what's probably less effort and less cost you can get a 4 year degree in engineering, business etc. that pays around $50-$70k/year, without the crappy schedule and lack of benefits that comes with it. I'm in business school and have several friends who are pilots and in college with me but none see it as more viable financially than a 9-5. You have to have a stupid amount of passion for it to take so much less money.


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[ktup-flyer]

Actually, I never thought about it in these terms. Consider the cost of training through the the Commercial and CFI certificates. Now think about the cost of a four year degree. In many cases those two numbers are the same. The only difference is the former are more likely to score one a job.

You still need a bachelors... just need an ATP, too.

 

[Phoenix]

Lol, well than you're not doing it right.


I've had quite the opposite experience.

The airplane might as well be called the closer, my first plane as well as my second plane have a 100% success rate

Closing rate. Attraction rate 0%. Sit on a motorcycle and they come to you.

 

[hindsight2020]

I don't see much value in the idea magically fixing the working conditions of paid flying will improve the hobby. I find inverting that statement to be more useful.

The reality is that piston GA is dated and expensive for the entertainment value it provides. I actually argue that an affordable and vibrant GA would alleviate the wage depression at the professional level, in so far as it would relieve the pressure of many entrants who do it merely because they cannot see themselves affording flying on a private and recreational basis. Furthermore, much of the turbine snobbery found in most pro aspirants can be quenched on a part-time basis, so that covers that usual canard. The remainder, those who truly enjoy the nomadism and seniority system pitfall opportunity costs [of the 121 world anyways] can now do so with less aspirants diluting the wage, as those are fat dumb and happy flying around on saturdays and/or flying turbine part-time instead of selling their soul and financial solvency for the sheer thrill of swinging a gear handle from the right seat of a transport category aircraft and RON'ing away from home and kids.

P.S. "Flight attendants make bad mothers". Quote from a senior airline pilot friend of mine. One of the things I find so funny about part 121 jobs is that, for a job set that has a fair amount of participants getting paid high in the six figures, it can be an incredibly seedy and dystopian work scene from a home life pov. I don't share his bitterness about women in general, but I do agree with him that traveling women are probably not desirable life partners or co-parents in the aggregate, which is congruent with the idea we can't get everything we want in life at the same time. Opportunity costs abound. To each their own.

 

[James331]

How accurate would these negatives be in regards to being a professional pilot?

* Poor pay
* Poor hours
* No set schedule
* Esteem of being a pilot isn't what it once was
* Living out of a motel room most of the time
* It takes a lot of time to work your way up to making good money
* Difficult occupation if you want to raise a family

I'd say a plus would be having meaningless sex with flight attendants, but I don't think I can recall seeing an attractive flight attendant in the past 15 years or so.

I imagine there are a number of flying jobs where these negatives don't apply, but I bet a lot of people have the perception that the above issues are the norm.

You work as a pilot?

Your list is quite off, only single thing correct is that it takes time to make good money, but that's true of everything, no such thing as easy money.

Closing rate. Attraction rate 0%. Sit on a motorcycle and they come to you.

Because trying to attract girls with a bike is that much better lol

Any jackass can get a bike off Craig's list and get a liscense in short order and with little invested, plus you're just driving down the same streets that girl drove her car down, nothing special, little intellect or commitment required.

Showing someone the world from a different prospective, doing something very few worldwide can do and something which doesn't come nearly as easily, it has a little more, well, wow factor.

We are working hard in our EAA Chapter to foster young adults along into aviation. For us it starts with Young Eagles. We first get to see the kids that truly have a desire for aviation there as they will keep coming back for another flight.

This year we started a ground school for the young folks (ages 14 and up) we have had around a half dozen regular attendees and we meet once a month. It is hard to meet more or for too long due to school and homework commitments.

Most recently we put a group of adult mentors together to work with some of our young folks in a builders program. They are currently working on an Ultra-Lite Pietenpol project and making good progress. The project was picked up from a gentleman that was a woodworker and had previously built four of these planes. His eyes are now failing him and building was not possible anymore so we got his fifth one that was in progress. The young folks are enjoying this and we have 6-10 that are participating in the program. These young folks are also earning $7.50 per hour towards flying credit. We currently have a deal with a flying club to rent their 150 for $75 an hour wet and we have several CFI's willing to donate time to training.

Our next step is in progress. One of our members created a corporate entity for a flying club and we have been granted 501(c)(3) status for it. Our intention is to be able to provide subsidized training for the young adults as they move forward in aviation. We will do this by seeking donations from local corporations.

I will spend a lot of time focusing on securing additional funding for these projects this year. The original funding to get going is a combination of a grant from Signature Flight in 2014 and contributions made to some memorial funds.

We are not the only program like this in the area. Our friend, Ron Alexander, has a similar program down at Peachstate Aerodrome in Williamson, GA and is having great success with it.

You can see about our building program at http://youth.eaa690.net

This is where I think we have issues, getting little kids involved in flying clubs just doesn't work that well and kinda makes flying feel like the boy scouts or something.

I got into the CAP for a VERY short periord of time, as a kid if I thought prancing around in uniform and doing all that crap with all those secret squirrel types was what flying is all about, I'd just be the "cool guy" and buy a crotch rocket off craigslist instead.


Best way to help aviation is to advertise where people have a sense of adventure and money, advertise flight lessons at a drop zone, motor cross tracks, polo fields, ski mountains, etc.

 

[alexgeo]

My parents paid for a large part of my PP cert when I was a senior in high school. I also did work a bit, and I'd say almost every pay check went towards flying as well.

From my perspective, most of my friends are not at all interested in technical hobbies. Scratch that...most younger people don't even have hobbies. Most my college friends just sit around.

 

[SkyDog58]

Closing rate. Attraction rate 0%. Sit on a motorcycle and they come to you.

Again, on a bike you are on the street or parking lot, more visible and more accessible. Same with sports cars and in some locales, monster trucks. Airplanes are far less accessible to the average person and thus far less visible except when they are flying overhead. However, an audible airplane passing overhead turns far more eyes upwards than does a motorcycle passing by. Provide people the exposure and opportunity to aircraft and they will be far more likely to show an interest and take a flight. And the ladies do love it.

 

[Everskyward]

I didn't know anyone who was involved with aviation when I went to HS, and I went to a big suburban high school. When I went back to my 40th reunion I met ONE other pilot. He works for USAir(?).

I also think there's a difference between promoting aviation to kids who want to do it as a hobby and kids who want a career. Of course there is a little bit of crossover (I was one), but people usually start out with one mindset or the other. When I was a CFI I sometimes found it difficult to get kids who wanted to do it as a hobby to study the written material. All they wanted to do was go out and fly the airplane. I only had one student who intended to make it a career, and he was much more dedicated. In any case, with young people, I think expense is a big barrier. Not so much so with older professionals, but many of them lack the time.

 

[Everskyward]

As far as motorcycles vs. airplanes, even discounting the chick magnet factor; how much effort and expense does it take to get a motorcycle and an endorsement on your license compared to getting a PPL? Not much. I once owned and rode a motorcycle.

 

[SkyDog58]

...
This is where I think we have issues, getting little kids involved in flying clubs just doesn't work that well and kinda makes flying feel like the boy scouts or something.

I got into the CAP for a VERY short periord of time, as a kid if I thought prancing around in uniform and doing all that crap with all those secret squirrel types was what flying is all about, I'd just be the "cool guy" and buy a crotch rocket off craigslist instead.
...

CAP is a great organization but far too often cadets who joined in order to fly or just be around airplanes become disenchanted when that aspect does not pan out. There is far too much emphasis on marching, uniforms and other air force related activities. Not only does that discourage those who do join, it also discourages many others from joining in the first place. If it was more about aviation then I believe it would be a better organization for young folks. It is definitely a great organization for adults who are pilots who are looking for a way to contribute their time to some sort of volunteer service.

 

[James331]

I joined for that very reason, more playing dress up and military crap than actually flying.

It's also not sexy or cool, when someone asks what you did last weekend and you show them a picture of some silly uniform, that's not appealing for most people, for sure not appealing for the types of people who didn't breast feed all the way into high school

Give it more of a drop zone, ski mountain, etc vibe, that attracts people, show pictures of cool places you flew, places only accessible by plane, aerobatics, backcountry stuff, etc.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

That article didn't seem to have anything to do with career flying(unless I missed something). It seemed to be more about how a cute pilot and her friends are getting older but there aren't younger people coming up through the ranks at local fly-ins. The problem I see with that whole thing, every person she talks about is a 2nd-3rd generation pilot in their family and their parents own airplanes. Not one person in my family flies. I guarantee if my dad flew and owned a Beaver on floats I'd fly the wings off the dang thing. Of the people she mentioned, I'd be curious to know how many(if any) of their parents are career pilots that fly for a living.

How accurate would these negatives be in regards to being a professional pilot?

* Poor pay
* Poor hours
* No set schedule
* Esteem of being a pilot isn't what it once was
* Living out of a motel room most of the time
* It takes a lot of time to work your way up to making good money
* Difficult occupation if you want to raise a family

I'd say a plus would be having meaningless sex with flight attendants, but I don't think I can recall seeing an attractive flight attendant in the past 15 years or so.

I imagine there are a number of flying jobs where these negatives don't apply, but I bet a lot of people have the perception that the above issues are the norm.

Eh...it varies with different flying occupations. Some are home every night, some aren't. To me that list sounds pretty much like a low seniority regional FO. Difficult occupation to raise a family? Harder than a 9-5 job yes but totally doable. Went on a few dates with a flight attendant and said she gets hit on by the pilots constantly. And not pilots her age, the older 40-50 year olds as well. She certainly wasn't the prettiest girl I've gone out with(that and no chemistry led to us only going on a couple dates). I agree a lot of people think that list is the norm.

You work as a pilot? Your list is quite off, only single thing correct is that it takes time to make good money, but that's true of everything, no such thing as easy money.

He basically said that he doesn't. Really all depends on what career flying people are doing because it varies greatly from one type of flying to the next. For a PT135 PC-12 medevac pilot that is home every night the majority of that list may be false. To a 1-4 year regional FO most of that list may not be far from the truth. I went on a few dates with a low seniority flight attendant and I can tell you she worked every holiday, a pretty ****ty schedule, and definitely didn't make a lot. She agreed the FOs were pretty much in the same boat as her.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

It's also not sexy or cool, when someone asks what you did last weekend and you show them a picture of some silly uniform, that's not appealing for most people, for sure not appealing for the types of people who didn't breast feed all the way into high school

Had a CAP guy tell me he outranked me...to which I replied:

 

[Everskyward]

Give it more of a drop zone, ski mountain, etc vibe, that attracts people, show pictures of cool places you flew, places only accessible by plane, aerobatics, backcountry stuff, etc.

I'll say that that was true of me when I was young, and even now, but not all kids are the same, just as not all adults are the same. There are plenty of people who want to go military or airlines. Those were simply not appealing to me because of the structure and regimentation, but they appeal to many.

 

[oregonboy109]

Ya more advertising would help. Friends I've taken up have loved it but not many people know it's even possible to get a pilots license in high school. I get a lot of "aren't you too young....". Also, compared to the years of club sports with travel fees equipment... Flying isn't actually that much more expensive. When I played club soccer it was 3-5k a season, 2 seasons a year. Many pay even note than that. Getting more info out to middle-high school students would go a long way IMO.

 

[jordane93]

Our school does flight instruction for a HS that juniors and seniors can take special aviation courses and flights. We've soloed a lot of students from the school. Some of kids don't care at all and just do it because they can get out of regular school for half a day and some of them really take it seriously. Most of the students I have are young and in their teens and early twenties. I'm 22 so I guess they think they can relate to me. My instructor was only a few years older than I was. I have a few older students but for the most part, I instruct high school kids or people that are still in college.

 

[oregonboy109]

That's sounds like a good program you've got there. My instructor was only 3 years older than me and I think that was a big plus during training.

 

[FormerHangie]

<SNIP>

Until young people see flying as a valid career opportunity with decent jobs and pay right out of the gate, the average age will continue to climb and climb.

Average age of a student pilot in 2005: 34.6
Average age of a student pilot in 2014: 31.5

Average age of a private pilot in 2005: 47.4
Average age of a private pilot in 2014: 48.5

Average age of all pilots in 2005: 45.5
Average age of all pilots in 2014: 44.8

Source: http://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/

It's because it's expensive and kids are more and more lazy, if it's not nearly free, given out without much effort and very quick to complete, they'll just stick to their xbox.

As for the wages, you can do OK starting out if you're willing to move around and can think outside the box a little.

I don't know what kids you are hanging around with, those I know through my daughters work hard, particularly on their schoolwork, and many of them have activities that are demanding as well.

 

[SkyDog58]

Had a CAP guy tell me he outranked me.

As someone who has worked around hot aircraft and active flight lines of all types for 35 years, I love it when a cadet doing "security" at an airshow tries to tell me what to do or not do. I just ignore them or laugh.

 

[DavidWhite]

CAP....LOL!