The FBO asked me: "Why are pilots so cheap"

Z06_Mir said:
We have to disclose the different aircraft we serve and they average our premiums based on that. So we give them year before numbers of the type/quantity aircraft we serviced. In a way like a work comp audit, but not quite as much.




The goal with the facility/ramp fees is to get people to buy fuel. Fuel is way more profitable than hangar, tie-down and ramp fees. That being said if you eliminate ramp fees you give away your services to those who don't purchase fuel or who purchased fuel next door for a lower price than came to use your services. We used to never, ever charge those fees. But once you're taken advantage of on a reulgar basis, you have to do something.
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I've gotten in the habit of filling up at every stop. It's a practice and convenient thing to do in my flying of my RV10, YMMV.

No one has charged me a ramp fee in quite awhile as a result. Only loser is my home field's private pump because I buy bit less fuel at home.


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paflyer said:
Most private flyers don't want "services", they just want to be able to get on/off the field without paying the troll.
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I highly disagree with this. People want a bathroom, WiFi, possibly a phone to use, vending machines, water, a flight planning computer. And that is just the bare basics. People also want rental cars, hotel rooms, recommendations. People want tie-downs, and hangar space, deicing, maintenance. They often want all of this 24/7. All of these things cost money to provide. The vast majority of people would not be satisfied if every airport was a port-a-potty on essentially a deserted island. And that is why FBOs charge ramp/facility fees to those that do not purchase fuel but that do use their services.


Bill Watson said:
I've gotten in the habit of filling up at every stop. It's a practice and convenient thing to do in my flying of my RV10, YMMV.

No one has charged me a ramp fee in quite awhile as a result. Only loser is my home field's private pump because I buy bit less fuel at home.


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And I bet the FBOs you visit appreciate you for purchasing fuel! 9/10 you won't get charged a ramp/facility fee if you purchase fuel even if you don't meet the requested minimum. It really is the thought that counts!
 
Who the heck wants a landline phone or a desktop to flight plan these days? I'd be happy with:bathroom, wifi, and if you want to stretch conditioned air and some cold water.

I'm sure you are speaking of a different class of GA than I am a participant which is likely part of the 'communication' problem.


Z06_Mir said:
I highly disagree with this. People want a bathroom, WiFi, possibly a phone to use, vending machines, water, a flight planning computer. And that is just the bare basics. People also want rental cars, hotel rooms, recommendations. People want tie-downs, and hangar space, deicing, maintenance. They often want all of this 24/7. All of these things cost money to provide. The vast majority of people would not be satisfied if every airport was a port-a-potty on essentially a deserted island. And that is why FBOs charge ramp/facility fees to those that do not purchase fuel but that do use their services.
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mscard88 said:
I used to fly a Cheyenne 2 in there and they had young very attractive, college age girls in short shorts (ex winter of course) who would marshal you in to park. No ramp fee back then either. Almost hit the building a few times.....:yesnod: :blowingkisses:
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Several years ago as a starving pilot trying to build time, I ferried a plane to somewhere in Illinois. I landed and had to taxi all the way from one end of the airport to the other end to get to the FBO I was supposed to park at. All the other FBOs had young girls in almost too small bikinis trying to wave me in to park. After passing all these attractive looking FBOs, I find the one I am looking for. There is an much older gentleman sitting under a giant beach umbrella, and he points to the area he wants me to park.....:rolleyes: :lol::lol:
 
atbroome said:
Who the heck wants a landline phone or a desktop to flight plan these days? I'd be happy with:bathroom, wifi, and if you want to stretch conditioned air and some cold water.

I'm sure you are speaking of a different class of GA than I am a participant which is likely part of the 'communication' problem.
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A lot of people want those things. Believe it or not, not everyone has an iPad or uses it and it alone for flight planning. As far as a landline goes even with cell phones sometimes your provider doesn't get the best of service in a different region. Also think about those coming from Canada or Mexico that may not have service at all, much less data service. And no, I don't think I am talking about a different "class" of GA pilot. My facility sees as many pistons as we do jets and they all get treated the same and they all have very similar needs and wants, too.
 
I have no doubt that some folks need nothing more from the FBO than an old guy pointing to where they need to park. Some of us need a little more at times and should not expect these services to be provided free. So for me the only question is whether the charge is reasonable or not. $15 a night is reasonable. Couple of weeks ago I went to Key West where the only FBO is Signature. They charged me $25 a night but waived one night with fuel purchase. I did not feel the charge to be unreasonable considering the horror stories I've heard about Signature in other places. They arranged for transportation, towed my plane to a parking spot and tied it down, provided water, got my plane fueled and ready for my departure, etc. Now, if I was going to stay there for more than a few days I would hope they would be willing to negotiate the fee. I don't know if they would but reducing the fee for an extended stay would be expected as the reasonable thing to do. Keeping things in perspective a reasonable charge is ok with me to keep the FBOs around providing service when needed.


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I fly to West Lebanon NH frequently. I got used to paying a $25 ramp fee for a PA46 Matrix. Showed up with a PA46 (well, P46T for internet sticklers) Meridian, got charged $75 because it was a turboprop. Same basic airframe and footprint. I thought it was bogus but not an argument worth having with a CSR or line guy.

Can't do the time, don't do the crime....
 
When I made my souther states winter flying trip this year during a weather delay I paid $4.00 a night to keep the plane in a hangar.

No where in more than a dozen overnights did I encounter a landing fee and three airports put the plane in a hangar overnight for free. I did skip landing in Augusta because of the landing fee, but it was during the Masters.

Tie down fees are sometimes charged by the city (Page, AZ for instance), and usually airports with fees are near poplar destinations.

But overall, because non fee airports give great service, usually better than the fee one, I avoid those that do charge.
 
flyersfan31 said:
I fly to West Lebanon NH frequently. I got used to paying a $25 ramp fee for a PA46 Matrix. Showed up with a PA46 (well, P46T for internet sticklers) Meridian, got charged $75 because it was a turboprop. Same basic airframe and footprint. I thought it was bogus but not an argument worth having with a CSR or line guy.

Can't do the time, don't do the crime....
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I agree, a better way to do it is by weight class. Light twins get dinged too...


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The pricing scheme doesn't matter as long as it's published. Hiding fees is the same as those annoying airplane ads, "Call for price." You've already told me you don't know how to price your product and set the tone that you want the customer to be subservient, not served.
 
Palmpilot said:
I paid the $3(!) overnight parking fee at Hillsboro, Oregon last summer, and they haven't even cashed my check!
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We moved our Portland area base of operations from PDX to HIO when Atlantic bought out Flightcraft and dramatically increased ramp fees. HIO charges $58 for a corporate jet, Atlantic at PDX charges $272. Atlantic waives that fee if you buy fuel, but we have bulk fuel at our home base and we rarely need fuel in Portland.
 
I've wanted to talk about this a little more now that I've got time to type...

I fly out of the midwest and I would say 95+% of the airports I go to do not charge any fees. A few might have them listed but if you buy gas even if you're there multiple days they won't charge you 9/10 times. Fuel is pretty consistently between $3.90 and $4.60/gal... usually around $4.20. Many of these airports will only have one or two other aircraft on the ramp and practically no activity. They still usually have at least a bathroom and someone there during regular business hours. There is usually also a couch, wifi, a TV, some books, vending machines, etc. Most can arrange for a rental car if you call ahead but unless it's a popular recreational destination they rarely have them on site.

These places stay open and provide all this at reasonable fuel prices and without any fees and light traffic. Then I'll go somewhere like say my last trip to Myrtle beach. There's another aircraft landing every minute... less than every minute in the last case. Their fuel is about $1/gallon cheaper and the truck(actually trucks plural) are always on their way somewhere. They are clearly doing a TON of volume compared to the little airports but they need to charge me a fee? Is the fee unreasonable? Not really.... but why is it the airports that do a ton of business need to charge a fee yet the deserted places don't. You would think it would have to be the other way around.

Coffee? Cookies? Free drinks/fancy water coolers? Meh. I'm on my way to a beachside bar, I don't need that stuff. Park, bathroom, fuel, car.
 
denverpilot said:
The pricing scheme doesn't matter as long as it's published. Hiding fees is the same as those annoying airplane ads, "Call for price." You've already told me you don't know how to price your product and set the tone that you want the customer to be subservient, not served.
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Yes, and posting prices online is very widespread in other industries. It's not like it's prohibitively expensive to do it.

I have to wonder about the legal enforceability of a contract whose terms are not revealed to the customer until after the obligations are incurred. Car parking lots typically have the fees posted so they are visible before you enter. Can you imagine the uproar if their practice was the same as FBOs? "Don't like paying $50 to park your car for an hour? You should have called ahead." :rolleyes1:
 
Most non towered airports in MO, AR, IA, KY, TN, OK, KS, NE are self service (which I prefer), open 24 hrs with coded doors, minimally attended, usually an old police car courtesy vehicle, fuel at $4, Internet, weather, honor system snacks and drinks, no landing or overnight fees, even for multi-day stays.
 
Palmpilot said:
Yes, and posting prices online is very widespread in other industries. It's not like it's prohibitively expensive to do it.

I have to wonder about the legal enforceability of a contract whose terms are not revealed to the customer until after the obligations are incurred. Car parking lots typically have the fees posted so they are visible before you enter. Can you imagine the uproar if their practice was the same as FBOs? "Don't like paying $50 to park your car for an hour? You should have called ahead." :rolleyes1:
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Could be fun to find out if you had money and you were bored. Find an FBO that practices the "automatic ramp fee" game and who will definitely send a line person into harm's way in front of a spinning prop to stop you, and then call the cops and start the legal process when they do.

I'm not that bored nor rich enough to play.
 
cowman said:
I've wanted to talk about this a little more now that I've got time to type...

I fly out of the midwest and I would say 95+% of the airports I go to do not charge any fees. A few might have them listed but if you buy gas even if you're there multiple days they won't charge you 9/10 times. Fuel is pretty consistently between $3.90 and $4.60/gal... usually around $4.20. Many of these airports will only have one or two other aircraft on the ramp and practically no activity. They still usually have at least a bathroom and someone there during regular business hours. There is usually also a couch, wifi, a TV, some books, vending machines, etc. Most can arrange for a rental car if you call ahead but unless it's a popular recreational destination they rarely have them on site.

These places stay open and provide all this at reasonable fuel prices and without any fees and light traffic. Then I'll go somewhere like say my last trip to Myrtle beach. There's another aircraft landing every minute... less than every minute in the last case. Their fuel is about $1/gallon cheaper and the truck(actually trucks plural) are always on their way somewhere. They are clearly doing a TON of volume compared to the little airports but they need to charge me a fee? Is the fee unreasonable? Not really.... but why is it the airports that do a ton of business need to charge a fee yet the deserted places don't. You would think it would have to be the other way around.

Coffee? Cookies? Free drinks/fancy water coolers? Meh. I'm on my way to a beachside bar, I don't need that stuff. Park, bathroom, fuel, car.
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It's probably because deserted FBO's don't charge because one or two planes won't help much in their costs and most likely, (With exceptions of course) land is plentiful there. The more populated areas will be more expensive to maintain an FBO.
 
Palmpilot said:
Yes, and posting prices online is very widespread in other industries. It's not like it's prohibitively expensive to do it.

I have to wonder about the legal enforceability of a contract whose terms are not revealed to the customer until after the obligations are incurred. Car parking lots typically have the fees posted so they are visible before you enter. Can you imagine the uproar if their practice was the same as FBOs? "Don't like paying $50 to park your car for an hour? You should have called ahead." :rolleyes1:
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People complain about Signature, but you can go to their site and use an online calculator to figure out your fee based on the airplane type and the amount of fuel you buy. I think part of the reason fees are not posted is that they are based on airplane type or size and the amount of fuel you buy. That would be a pretty big spreadsheet to publish. I have often had CSRs looking down a multipage list for the amount to charge us. I'm not making an excuse for them, just realize it's not a flat fee for every airplane.
 
I wasn't referring to iPad flight planning. Many people travel with whatever device they use to conduct their day to day business, be it a tablet, MS surface device, or a laptop. And as long as I have wifi, I can use that to make calls via my phone either directly via Wifi calling or via Skype. All I'm saying is you probably don't need to budget for too many new desktop PCs or phones.

I'm with Nate and others. Feel free to charge whatever you think the market will bear, just please publish those numbers.

Z06_Mir said:
A lot of people want those things. Believe it or not, not everyone has an iPad or uses it and it alone for flight planning. As far as a landline goes even with cell phones sometimes your provider doesn't get the best of service in a different region. Also think about those coming from Canada or Mexico that may not have service at all, much less data service. And no, I don't think I am talking about a different "class" of GA pilot. My facility sees as many pistons as we do jets and they all get treated the same and they all have very similar needs and wants, too.
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If we pilots can do the correct pre-flight planning calcs, I'm sure we can successfully navigate a pricing spreadsheet :D

Everskyward said:
People complain about Signature, but you can go to their site and use an online calculator to figure out your fee based on the airplane type and the amount of fuel you buy. I think part of the reason fees are not posted is that they are based on airplane type or size and the amount of fuel you buy. That would be a pretty big spreadsheet to publish. I have often had CSRs looking down a multipage list for the amount to charge us. I'm not making an excuse for them, just realize it's not a flat fee for every airplane.
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atbroome said:
I wasn't referring to iPad flight planning. Many people travel with whatever device they use to conduct their day to day business, be it a tablet, MS surface device, or a laptop. And as long as I have wifi, I can use that to make calls via my phone either directly via Wifi calling or via Skype. All I'm saying is you probably don't need to budget for too many new desktop PCs or phones.

I'm with Nate and others. Feel free to charge whatever you think the market will bear, just please publish those numbers.
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I was in Toronto the other day. Wifi or not the only way I could file a flight plan was calling Canadian flight service on a land line...


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So you are saying that your phone carrier doesn't support Wifi calling and Canadian flight service won't pick up a Skype to landline call?

When I've visited my home office in Kanata I've had no problem calling local numbers via T-mobile wifi calling or Skype. I've had to resort to Skype while in the Ottawa airport a few times since it seems to require less bandwidth than wifi calling.

Picking up the landline may have been easier, but my point is if in the future you find yourself somewhere with decent wifi and either no landline at all or a prohibitively expensive land line, you have other options these days if you have a smartphone.



gsengle said:
I was in Toronto the other day. Wifi or not the only way I could file a flight plan was calling Canadian flight service on a land line...


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gsengle said:
I agree, a better way to do it is by weight class. Light twins get dinged too...


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This happened to me last month. I park at the same time as a Malibu in the DC area. We walk in about the same time. My rate was double his and his wingspan is greater than mine?
 
atbroome said:
So you are saying that your phone carrier doesn't support Wifi calling and Canadian flight service won't pick up a Skype to landline call?

When I've visited my home office in Kanata I've had no problem calling local numbers via T-mobile wifi calling or Skype. I've had to resort to Skype while in the Ottawa airport a few times since it seems to require less bandwidth than wifi calling.

Picking up the landline may have been easier, but my point is if you found yourself somewhere with decent wifi and either no landline at all or a prohibitively expensive land line, you have other options these days if you have a smartphone.
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TBH I didn't bother to try and get on their wifi at all. There was a convenient desk, computer and phone...


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gsengle said:
TBH I didn't bother to try and get on their wifi at all. There was a convenient desk, computer and phone...

Also does the Canadian 866 number work when calling from a (virtual) US area code?


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denverpilot said:
Could be fun to find out if you had money and you were bored. Find an FBO that practices the "automatic ramp fee" game and who will definitely send a line person into harm's way in front of a spinning prop to stop you, and then call the cops and start the legal process when they do.

I'm not that bored nor rich enough to play.
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Beat them to the punch. As soon as someone steps in front of the plane, call the cops and report a person is trying to take control of the plane.....

I do not suggest actually doing that but it is fun to think about...:yesnod:

One time I got a bill from an FBO in the mail. They wanted to collect a landing and parking fee but could not come up with a tail number. Wasn't me, even if it was.
 
Everskyward said:
People complain about Signature, but you can go to their site and use an online calculator to figure out your fee based on the airplane type and the amount of fuel you buy. I think part of the reason fees are not posted is that they are based on airplane type or size and the amount of fuel you buy. That would be a pretty big spreadsheet to publish. I have often had CSRs looking down a multipage list for the amount to charge us. I'm not making an excuse for them, just realize it's not a flat fee for every airplane.
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The Signature calculator sounds like a very reasonable solution.
 
I know Canadian 1-800 numbers work but there is something different in how it gets charged; Our office WebEx has a separate 800 numbers for Canada and the US. For a few months, there were a number of people who had them reversed. Calls went through but apparently WebEx charged us more for them.

For Skype, I don't recall how it works, i.e. what Flight service will see for Caller ID if you don't have a Skype identity/number setup. I'm also curious (and have no idea) if they have rules about having to pick up the phone from an "Unknown Caller".

gsengle said:
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atbroome said:
I know Canadian 1-800 numbers work but there is something different in how it gets charged; Our office WebEx has a separate 800 numbers for Canada and the US. For a few months, there were a number of people who had them reversed. Calls went through but apparently WebEx charged us more for them.
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Kinda. You can get them billed at equal rates but you have to do enough traffic, etc etc etc. And it depends on the carrier and how bad they want your traffic. Everything is negotiable. Especially now that the major carrier's long haul backbones are IP anyway.

Webex charging different is pretty much just price gouging on their part. I'd be all up in their butts if we were a large org doing a lot of traffic with them. Small and most medium businesses, it falls under the "not worth chasing" line. In fact, with most people dialing from mobiles and/or office spaces where you've already negotiated way below one cent per minute in L/D charges and usually more like four decimal places in cents for some calls, you're usually better off NOT using the 800 numbers for long duration calls.

This is one of those exceedingly boring areas of telecom I know REALLY well. How to audit a company's phone bills and find big savings when they're above a certain size and traffic load.

Conferencing of any sort drives long off-hook times by a lot of trunks simultaneously and is usually where folks can save the most money. (As we used to say, "He who dies with the most erlangs, wins.")

Problem is, like I said, if you've negotiated the prices on mobile minutes and regular L/D down where they should be (commodity pricing... seriously, it's nearly nothing now compared to the 90s when I started in that sector) there's little to be gained in a telecom audit. All I really need to see is the per minute pricing on the majority of regular calls and if it's not significantly below a penny, like .0003 cents per minute, you'll save a crap ton just by changing carriers and renegotiating base prices.

Audio conferencing was already a commodity before I got out of the telecom side and moved to all server side IT projects. You literally shouldn't pay anything for that. Zero.

Video and data, that's going to cost a little but it shouldn't be very much. Never ever pay retail for that at Webex or anywhere else.

As far as your question about caller ID to AFSS goes ... if you put your phone number in your profile their system will automatically populate your tail number in your profile with the call. If it all works. It doesn't always.

That's about it. They don't care what the CID says on an inbound call other than that.

And it's somewhat useless for anyone who flies more than one aircraft. Call from your registered cell number and they'll ask if it's for your profile N-number and you'll say no, no it's not. Their services are provided and billed to the taxpayer against the N-numbers.
 
So ridiculous. I don't get the sense of entitlement from people. You want to be able to land at any place, go into a clean, dry FBO, get a cold water, a hot coffee, take a leak, maybe use WIFI, get some fresh popcorn, then ask for a crew car. And people just expect this? "I'm a pilot" :rolleyes:

God our society blows sometimes. You're complaining about a $sub-20 tie-down fee for all that? Keep it up and next time you'll show up to that same airport and that FBO won't be there. Then you'll some here and ***** about it. Because you didn't get your way.

I even see it here... "it's ******** that foreflight is charging $50 annually for xyz" ... really? that's 10 gallons of gas for something you can use 24/7/365. Free updates, incredible tech etc. Hell you even see it on the App Store. "SWEET GAME! OMg... they want 2.99? That's preposterous!"

Be a man, buck up, and pay the $15 to park your plane for the night. Go in and talk to the folks who run the FBO. You might learn something. Or you might just feel good. Or maybe they're rude. Whatever... go do your thing and leave the next day. Pay the $15 bucks and realize that you just flew a god damned airplane and we have the most amazing and inspiring hobby (profession for some) and passion on the planet.
 
MetalCloud said:
So ridiculous. I don't get the sense of entitlement from people. You want to be able to land at any place, go into a clean, dry FBO, get a cold water, a hot coffee, take a leak, maybe use WIFI, get some fresh popcorn, then ask for a crew car. And people just expect this? "I'm a pilot" :rolleyes:
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I haven't seen anyone asking for free stuff in the thread.

Been into plenty of unclean, (at least) dry, FBOs with day old coffee and a water fountain, no wifi, and definitely no popcorn or crew car, self serve fuel, and a tumbleweed for ambiance, blowing across the ramp, and it hasn't killed me yet. LOL.

I'm always chuckling when I happen to go somewhere that has furniture newer than my house and the place is decorated like a magazine cover.

My needs are quite low. If I don't have passengers I'm plenty cool with peeing on the grass next to the local ag spraying hangar like their staff do, if it's after hours.

And have, in Kansas and Texas both.
 
MetalCloud said:
So ridiculous. I don't get the sense of entitlement from people. You want to be able to land at any place, go into a clean, dry FBO, get a cold water, a hot coffee, take a leak, maybe use WIFI, get some fresh popcorn, then ask for a crew car. And people just expect this? "I'm a pilot" :rolleyes:

God our society blows sometimes. You're complaining about a $sub-20 tie-down fee for all that? Keep it up and next time you'll show up to that same airport and that FBO won't be there. Then you'll some here and ***** about it. Because you didn't get your way.

I even see it here... "it's ******** that foreflight is charging $50 annually for xyz" ... really? that's 10 gallons of gas for something you can use 24/7/365. Free updates, incredible tech etc. Hell you even see it on the App Store. "SWEET GAME! OMg... they want 2.99? That's preposterous!"

Be a man, buck up, and pay the $15 to park your plane for the night. Go in and talk to the folks who run the FBO. You might learn something. Or you might just feel good. Or maybe they're rude. Whatever... go do your thing and leave the next day. Pay the $15 bucks and realize that you just flew a god damned airplane and we have the most amazing and inspiring hobby (profession for some) and passion on the planet.
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:yeahthat:
 
denverpilot said:
My needs are quite low. If I don't have passengers I'm plenty cool with peeing on the grass next to the local ag spraying hangar like their staff do, if it's after hours.

And have, in Kansas and Texas both.
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Be careful if you come out to Florida,

If caught you can pay some hefty fines or possibly arrested if a child is present you can be quickly posted on the pedophile list, (Yes, it happens all the time here). That is why I pay the fee asked and use the bathroom in select locations. Sometimes the risk is not worth it.
 
FloridaPilot said:
Be careful if you come out to Florida,

If caught you can pay some hefty fines or possibly arrested if a child is present you can be quickly posted on the pedophile list, (Yes, it happens all the time here). That is why I pay the fee asked and use the bathroom in select locations. Sometimes the risk is not worth it.
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This country is fd up.
 
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MetalCloud said:
So ridiculous. I don't get the sense of entitlement from people. You want to be able to land at any place, go into a clean, dry FBO, get a cold water, a hot coffee, take a leak, maybe use WIFI, get some fresh popcorn, then ask for a crew car. And people just expect this? "I'm a pilot" :rolleyes:

God our society blows sometimes. You're complaining about a $sub-20 tie-down fee for all that? Keep it up and next time you'll show up to that same airport and that FBO won't be there. Then you'll some here and ***** about it. Because you didn't get your way.

I even see it here... "it's ******** that foreflight is charging $50 annually for xyz" ... really? that's 10 gallons of gas for something you can use 24/7/365. Free updates, incredible tech etc. Hell you even see it on the App Store. "SWEET GAME! OMg... they want 2.99? That's preposterous!"

Be a man, buck up, and pay the $15 to park your plane for the night. Go in and talk to the folks who run the FBO. You might learn something. Or you might just feel good. Or maybe they're rude. Whatever... go do your thing and leave the next day. Pay the $15 bucks and realize that you just flew a god damned airplane and we have the most amazing and inspiring hobby (profession for some) and passion on the planet.
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Who's complaining about $15 overnight? I think most have a problem of no low cost options for a quick stop or to pick up/drop off and then paying 8.00 for fuel to avoid getting feed.
 
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paflyer said:
This country is fd up.
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There does seem to be something wrong with having public facilities without 24-hour public toilets, and then arresting people for the inevitable consequences of that.
 
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